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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Get in there and throw some sand!

    Don't get me started! :)

    You know you want to tell Hemi "I'd get an Audi, when they build 'em in Tahara, Japan!"

    You can do it! Stop sending me e-mails, and get it off your chest. I got your back!

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    oac - It gets down to what makes a car "better" than another, doesn't it? Be open-minded here. I'll try as well.

    When you read the car mags, they generally use criteria such as subjective comfort and "feel", but they also use objective measureable things such as 0-60 acceleration, 60-0 braking, slalom results, fuel efficiency, db noise levels, and other measureable vital statistics.

    With regards to many of the measureable vital statistics, the Mercedes shines. With regards to the reliability, it is a statistic that favors the Lexus, but realize that reliability can occur at ANY price tier, and frequently does so at the economy tier. Performance, on the other hand, more typically improves at the higher price tiers, and is therefore a reflection of "invested dollars" into the design and production of a car. Performance has value.

    So, again, what makes one "better"? The measureable data of performance and reliability are certain factors, and then the subjective factors as the "feel" or comfort of the car. The features of the vehicle are certainly part of the equation. For the most part, what huge and significant differences do you see between the "features" of the S and the LS that you would claim is so much "better" for the LS?

    The history and heritage seems to be a new hot topic, but nonetheless, it does exist, and it is in Mercedes favor, of course, as are status and prestige, and the previously mentioned performance.

    So, it is interesting that when I compare all the factors here, it just looks obvious to me that the S-Class one-ups the LS, which is also a great car, BTW. But, somehow when a Lexus fan looks at the same data, the LS looks better.

    Same old conclusion, isn't it? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

    TagMan
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Performance, on the other hand, more typically improves at the higher price tiers, and is therefore a reflection of "invested dollars" into the design and production of a car. Performance has value.

    If only you or any of the Germancarfans can explain this I'd gladly listen... And of course, point out to me how these performance is measured objectively, that'd be nice as well.... Trust me, I do have an open mind to learn "new" things, or re-learn old things as well.. :)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Ah Doc, there you are. I thought I'd get away from the flip-floppin today. Interesting, who's your fav politician? Hilary R. Clinton or John F. Kerry? Could be both since the two of them voted for Iraq and then voted against the funds. Floppers.

    I say this to you as you're the reigning king flip-floppin on this forum. Over the days, you said once, Audi isn't a HELM, secondly, a semi-HELM, and third, a full-out HELM. Which is it Doc? Can't slice your pie three ways.

    ...You know you want to tell Hemi "I'd get an Audi, when they build'em in Tahara, Japan!"

    And this was supposed to imply what? Because it's German, it's not better than Japanese, which couldn't be furthest from the truth? Or the fact that if Audi does build the cars there, it will eat at even more of Lexus' turf? Whatever.

    The truth of the matter is this. Most people that care about how a car is ranked are some of the same ones who are overly self-conscious of themselves, having to be oh so perfect each time. Is this why most Lexicans believe that Lexus has sold them perfection? And to add, some of those people also are so ever intrigued about what the next person thinks of the ride much more than they care to think. Which is really sad as with me, for sure I will continue to buy luxury rides, but not on the opinion or thoughts of anyone else....
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    If only you or any of the Germancarfans can explain this I'd gladly listen... And of course, point out to me how these performance is measured objectively, that'd be nice as well.... Trust me, I do have an open mind to learn "new" things, or re-learn old things as well.

    Fair enough, my friend.

    Performance is measured OBJECTIVELY by testing specific criteria and then using that data as a measure of performance and allowing comparisons between vehicles.

    So, those objective measureable performance items are typically 0-60 acceleration, 0-100 acceleration, 5-60 acceleration, 60-0 braking, 70-0 braking, top speed, standing quarter-mile, slalom, 300-foot diameter skidpad, and fuel economy. Collectively, this data tells us how a car handles. Does it corner well or accelerate poorly, or brake poorly and other performance and handling criteria. In a certain sense, it is the athletic condition of a car.

    Later this summer I will be taking a very serious look at the Lotus Elise. The objective and measureable performance data on that car are practically off the charts in comparison to most vehicles. It's the PRIMARY reason I want one. Anything else that close in performance would cost me an ADDITIONAL $200,000. Now that's amazing to me . . . an affordable race car. Why is it amazing? Because, as you asked about, it is generally true that major performance is found in higher-priced cars. The more notable extreme being Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, Maser, etc. A manufacturer must invest design-work and materials into performance. That's also why there is a premium for performance variants such as the "M" badge for BMW or the "AMG" badge for Mercedes.

    What does it say if a base car has terrific performance? It says that the manufacturer has done its homework and designed it into the vehicle, and has spent money on at least some level of original equipment to make it perform well.

    If you are saying that performance measurements do not matter and that the performance of the Lexus LS is "good enough" than I would counter and say that the reliability data doesn't matter and that the reliability of the Mercedes is "good enough".

    The reason I throw that out is that it is not fair to discredit the achievements of a marque, only to boast about the achievements of another. It should be that credit is given where credit is due.

    And performance is generally not the Lexus strength. Reliability is. Both these attributes are OBJECTIVE differences, measured in FACTUAL data.

    Style, however, is SUBJECTIVE and although the Mercedes is generally credited with more style, it is not a FACT. It is only a more popular or common opinion. Comfort is subjective and involves opinions, although at extreme comparisons, it presents itself as obvious, such as the comparison between the comfort of a Cadillac and a Chevy Cobalt. Subjective, but pretty obvious.

    History and heritage are FACTUAL, but their relevance is SUBJECTIVE and emotional, as are prestige and status. They exist and can actually be measured in marketing studies, but they are emotional factors and should be treated as such.

    So, performance in a vehicle is typically a result of superior design and components. It is an indication that money has been spent to achieve it. It is ultimately MEASUREABLE and has VALUE and MERIT. It is an ACHIEVEMENT.

    And that's more than enough for now. The first-place A's are playing the LA Dodgers . . . good West-Coast game for guys like us.

    :D

    TagMan
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    You brought a very good point to the table which almost everyone at HELM has overlooked.

    Service Intervals.

    lexus: 7500 miles or roughly 6 months
    MB: 13,000 miles/ 1 year
    BMW: 15,000 miles/ 1year
    Audi: 12,000 miles/1 yr
    Porsche: 20,000 miles/ 2 years (VOW!)

    This is one weak point in Lexus, Acura, Infiniti strategy.
    this is also the reason why I like porsche and would buy the cayman as my next bet. Well said greasykid!

    I am not 100% sure, but I believe among all the marques, lux and non-lux including HELMs, porsche has the longest intervals.

    Does anyone know if there is anything better out there.
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    Benz: :shades:
    Porsche: :shades:
    BMW: :lemon:
    Audi: :sick: (30s and 00s but very sketchy)
    Jaguar: :lemon:
    Rolls Royce: :lemon: :lemon: (Fraudulent heritage, propaganda)
    bentley: :lemon:
    Aston Martin: :lemon::lemon:
    Land Rover: :lemon:
    Lotus: :shades: (great heritage, especially F1 and mid-engine road cars, truly innovative, english charm, best handling along with Porsche and Ferrari)
    Ferrari: :shades: (everyone from stockholm to South Africa and LA to Singapore knows what ferrari is and what it has accomplished)
    Lamborghini: :lemon: (fraudulent, never raced, like a neutered bull)
    Maserati: :sick:
    Lexus: :shades:
    Acura: :confuse:
    Infiniti: :confuse:
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Alright, TagMan.... thanks for that refresher. I want to call your attention to the Dec 2003 comparo of the HELMs, which the LS430 won outright, and which the S430 came in dead last. Here are a few snippets from the C&D review for the first place 2004 LS430:

    First Place
    Lexus LS430

    If you just walked up and asked, we'd say this is not a Car and Driver sort of car. But like gravity, the Lexus kept pulling on us. It's so confident. It does so many things beautifully. It's like the salesman who never quits, and finally, you find yourself agreeing with him.

    "Yeah, why didn't I think of that?"

    The Lexus ride is unmatched in this group. There's a switch on the dash that lets you make it a little worse if you must. Go ahead, if more sinew in the suspenders makes you think handling is better.

    If you really want muscles, opt for the sport suspension with 18-inch summer tires. The 17s on the test car were quick to moan when pushed. Skidpad grip was weakest of all, 0.73 g. But don't confuse that with stumbling behavior. This is an agile dancer wearing slippery shoes.

    It's best that you have a light touch on the controls when you hustle. The steering and the brakes are almost delicate in their feel. You must caress them. And when you do, the responses come with precision. Still, this sedan is at its best on the expressway. The steering knows exactly where straight ahead is, and the faster you go, the more it locks onto that heading.

    Read the rest of the entire comparo here

    http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/7359/70000-luxury-sedans.html

    As this comparo shows, the LS430 was weakest in skidpad grip shorn with all-season tires in 17" gab, compared to the German cars with upgraded suspension and 18" Summer tires (in sport gab). Not particularly apples-to-apples.... but like I said earlier, all you need is to put same 18" on the LS and with its Euro suspension pit the car against its comparable S, and let's see who wins that "performance" test.

    What remains a mystery is how easy it is for many people to simply believe the perception that the LS has poor performance cos its luxury-biased. Part of the beauty and allure of the LS is its deceptiveness... It does everything so well and effortless that makes you think it couldn't be that good.... Yes, its that good. The outgoing LS430 is pretty fast (5.9s with a 278HP/6A ain't bad), brakes are super sharp, has decent handling for a big sedan, and can be slightly sharpened with the Euro suspension. Maybe some don't think much of the LS in handling, but its a pretty good performer in its own right.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    For someone like me who buys a car, keeps it for 5-6 years, and drives 25-30K miles a year, the LS is the only way to go. I honestly don't care what its skidpad numbers are, thats not why I bought it. I think that probably goes for most LS owners.

    Lexus service interverals are more frequent than the Germans, but the dealer does all of the work including getting my car to and from the service department, so that doesn't really bother me. What's important is that even on year 5 and mile 150,000, my '96 LS400 kept on running day in and out without a single unscheduled repair visit, and my '01 has been more of the same. In contrast, I drive my Jags 1\10 of the amount of miles, and yet the '96 and '98 saw the dealer many a time. The '00 has been quite a bit more reliable than those older Jags, but it has still had its share of problems, including a supercharger failure that would've been hideously expensive to fix had it not been covered under warranty.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Now if you're gonna stay on my team, you've gotta defend the team's right to earn a buck!

    How would Lexus' service dept. make money if they didn't require service visits? The cars won't break down, and you have to pay the service men well to keep good service men, so to cover your service overhead, and ensure your brands reputation for long-term durability, a six-month service interval is not only fair, it's expected.

    The other HELMs have turned to the use of longer intervals as a way to market against the superior quality of Lexus, and increase their perception of high quality.

    20 years ago, the German's intervals weren't so long.

    What's changed in 20 years? Lexus, owners expectations (brought on by Lexus), and technology..

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Given the high performance standards of German LPS and HELM, there is an inevitable compromise in reliability.
    However, standards are so high these days, that "average" reliability today would have been "extraordinary" 20 years ago, IMO.
    I don't believe one is taking a huge risk in purchasing a German vehicle today. Reliability is indeed as you so perfectly nail it, "good enough."
    I had no problem deciding on my 545 even though CR gave it the dreaded black mark for reliability.
    Given the performance, it was a risk worth taking.
    So far, close to the end of year one, no reliability issues at all.

    Come on folks, when was the last time you saw an Audi, BMW or MB stuck on the side of the road waiting for the AAA guy?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I concur HP. Take for instance my '01 S500. 41,000 miles on the odo when I got rid of it to take possession of my '03 S8. Only but two probs: The crazy COMAND probs everyone had and the failure of 1 HID bulb premuturely. That is it. And my '91 classic 560 SEL was a model enviable reliability, no probs whatsoever until I traded it in '95 for the new 740iL. I should've definetely kept as a collectors car(and it's still inmensely popular here in NY because they never die, especially the old 300SD's) because it was truely Benz before the wrong hands got to it.

    CR had this car blacked-out from engine to trans to electricals to even the comfort level, which was interesting as the car was quite comfortable, ahead of all Germans in '01. What they don't tell you is that for every "eventual" prob they think the car will have, they'll mark it out. Check every single European car tbey test and it tells the story of bad electricals.

    Not every S430/500 had bad quality then. If so, why are there so many still on the road with such bad quality? Plenty of '00/01's can be found on the road today, many being with the original owners. Would someone actually think that a person in their sound body and mind would pour thousands into a "piece of junk" like this? Hardly. The same can be said about Lexus. Not all of them experience "trouble free" operation.

    And now to Audi, which CR gives mixed reviews. First they say that the A8 is flat out subpar, but turn back one page and the A6 4.2(which has the same running gear as the A8) is flawless. How's about that? But interestingly enough, they save some of the heat on my '06 W-12, which is quite interesting as the Phaeton W-12 scored horridly so, again the same running gear.

    Personally, I wouldn't believe one ioda that came out of that mag. And you're right, exactly how many of the German cars you see on the side of the road? Not many, if any. It's just yet another smear campaign in the pursuit of "perfection".......
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    "I honestly don't care what its skidpad numbers are, thats not why I bought it. I think that probably goes for most LS owners"

    LG - that's true of 95% of the buyers of the LS, S, 7 and A8 as well. The only thing most people will take note of are 0-60 times and HP.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes. And if German luxury and high-end vehicles were such basket-case reliability hazards, how can one explain their sales going through the roof?
    I mean Audi, BMW and MB should be going out of business if you believe CR and its ilk.

    Hey folks, people are not that stupid.
    There appears to be a serious disconnect between reliability statistics and the real world.

    You can only go so far with this stale, tiring Lexus reliability argument.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Let me say this about the "performance" thing here. If the vital statistics didn't have significance, all the rags wouldn't be constantly measuring them and comparing them. But I must say that I do indeed agree with many of you that ultimately it is just an indication of a car's potential, and the more typical "feel" of a car is either OK with us or not. ljflx is right about the 0-60 times and HP, but I would add "cornering" to that as well.

    Most of us are not about to take these vehicles to ridiculous limits on our way to work (except hpowders, when challenged on the freeway) ;) .

    The merits of performance, whether or not we ever personally reach or care about their actual limits, are legitimate measurements, however, and when making claims of superiority, they end up being tossed into the arena, I suppose.

    It still gets down to the claims of superiority by the Lexus camp regarding reliability that continuously goes beyond what matters in "real life". Again, the Mercedes reliability is generally and historically "good enough". And the claims of superior handling by the Mercedes camp that go beyond "real life" requirements, as the performance of the Lexus in real life has typically been "good enough".

    This argument, it seems never ends, and the same results occur each time. That is, until the vehicles themselves change enough to give us very different feedback. Of course, with the new S-Class and the upcoming new S, the playing field is in a state of change. I personally can't wait to read the head to head comparos of the new LS against the new S-Class. This forum will be lit up like Christmas. Great days lie ahead for all of us.

    These recent "service interval" remarks may have some merit, as we haven't really tossed that around a bunch. I suppose the costs of those services could be significant if they are major services, as opposed to oil/filter changes.

    One other thing that I believe has come out of all of this is the much deserved attention to Audi. And it's about time, IMO.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Note: I never initiate a challenge, but when the boys and girls want to play, I'm game.
    I only lost 2 of them because my stupid instinct for self-preservation got the better of me.
    Let 'em think they beat a 545.
    My gift to Interstate 75. :)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    my stupid instinct for self-preservation got the better of me.

    Damn good instinct, IMO.

    So, later this year if I get that Lotus Elise, what games should I expect?

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Well, whenever I go bicycle riding ( road bike), I know where to find my crash helmet-the passenger seat of the 545.

    With a Lotus, even I may come out of my shell and initiate a challenge.

    Just get some good metal polish. The new sheriff in town must wear a very shiny badge!

    They'll swarm from the left and the right from hundreds of feet away at warp factor 2 with only one mission-to cut right in front of you. After they do so, they will smugly reduce their speed. Mission accomplished.

    This weekend I will devote to running through a list of serious excuses why I cannot move back to NYC and its 60 mph average highway speed so I can perhaps get a Cayman and stay in Florida with its 85 mph average speed.
    The Commander has her heart set on moving back to LI, the land of massive congestion and property taxes.
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    I had a chance to check out the Lotus, and is realy appears to be a fun car...I didn`t ask for a drive but am sure it would be a `bullet` The workmanship was great, along with the fit and finish...Once in and seated, fit like a glove...It --imo--should be a special car for special times....Tony
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    It still gets down to the claims of superiority by the Lexus camp regarding reliability that continuously goes beyond what matters in "real life". Again, the Mercedes reliability is generally and historically "good enough".

    With regards to many of the measureable vital statistics, the Mercedes shines. With regards to the reliability, it is a statistic that favors the Lexus, but realize that reliability can occur at ANY price tier, and frequently does so at the economy tier...

    I don't believe one is taking a huge risk in purchasing a German vehicle today. Reliability is indeed as you so perfectly nail it, "good enough."

    Not every S430/500 had bad quality then. If so, why are there so many still on the road with such bad quality? Plenty of '00/01's can be found on the road today, many being with the original owners. Would someone actually think that a person in their sound body and mind would pour thousands into a "piece of junk" like this? Hardly. The same can be said about Lexus. Not all of them experience "trouble free" operation...

    Who are these quotes from ? All are from Germancarfans on this HELM board... And why do I point these out ? Its bcos contrary to the perception being thrown out here, its actually the Germancarfans that constantly harp on RELIABILITY..... How many Lexophiles point out reliability, relative to how many Germancarfans do ? Sorry, the more you guys talk about this insane point, the more it smarks of your defensive aspect of it. Admit it, the two words - LS and reliability - just eats at you everytime... Its time to get over it, pls...

    No one in their right minds will ever say that the cars in this forum are junk and unreliable.... How insane can that be ????? I mean, it simply belittles our collective intelligence if any of us were to insinuate such. What is more pertinent is that the cars we talk about in this forum are ALL excellent cars in their own rights, with their biases....

    Stop harping on reliability, Germancarfans, and the word will soon disappear from our verbage on this forum. In the same vein, pls reduce the worn-out "performance" issue of the S vs the LS. As many of you have agreed, most HELM buyers are not concerned with skidpads or slalom numbers, so why harp on it ?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Stop harping on reliability, Germancarfans, and the word will soon disappear from our verbage on this forum.

    oac - I get your point, but heck, I could pull many posts out the way you did to show that Lexus fans do indeed bring up the reliability issue plenty of times.

    But, beyond that, I think that the Eurocar fans sometimes bring it up just to find SOMETHING to compliment the Lexus. ;) Just kidding, oac.

    Well, OK, let's see if you guys will in fact stop bragging about the reliability, or coming off as superior by calling the German cars junk or posting lemons.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Tony - Thanks so much for that feedback on the Lotus Elise. I keep reading more reviews and watching more videos and they are all exceptional. I'm expecting to drive it in early August, and I'm already thinking that red with a beige interior would be the classic sports car color to get. BTW, I was just told that the '07's will be coming in at the end of September or early October, so if my decision is made in August, I think that it might make sense to wait 60 days and get an '07.

    If I don't like it, the Cayman (or 911) surely makes a lot of sense.
    Thanks again.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    Since when is a car unreliable only if it is stuck on the road? For the record I've seen more S-class cars being towed on flatbeds from people's driveways than any car on the road. I've got plenty of friends and acquaintances that have German cars and many are disgusted with too many visits to the repair shop and high repair bills. These are probably the type of people that are reporting the data that causes the bad reliability scores. None of them - to my knowledge - ever got stuck on the road though one of them had an E-class that had it's brakes lock up and he had it towed to the dealership because he was scared to drive it again. But if it had happened to them that would have been the coup-de-grace. Several of these folks have switched over to Lexus when they wanted a new car or SUV for two reasons - they wanted the reliability and the brand has the cache name these days. Many of these folks have Lexus vehicles (and love them) and a BMW or MB in the same garages now. Oddly none have Audi and don't think or speak of it on the same terms of MB, BMW or Lexus. The other thing I've seen happen here locally is the rich snapping up the IS for their kids and as a play car for themselves. Why? Reliability. Lexus and reliability are synonyms in peoples minds these days. It's becoming as common as the term "xerox this". But in this case those young folks are getting hooked on the car and its performance as well as reliability, all of which become a major enhancement for Lexus as a brand. Dismiss reliabilty all you want with silly thoughts like cars not seen on the side of the road. But that extreme is hardly the definition of bad reliability.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The World Cup final match:

    Germany vs. Japan

    It is possible, though doubtful.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "Since when is a car unreliable only if it is stuck on the road."

    Because the worst fear people have when a car is listed as below average in reliability is getting stuck in a vehicle that won't start; not an electrical glitch causing the "get service now" light to flash by mistake-the latter much more likely as a real world reliability problem-annoying-yes, major-no. People always fear the worst which is irrational, given the sophistication of today's vehicles.

    Perhaps those flatbed trucks are for regular maintenance service pick-ups or being used to transfer the vehicle from one owner to another.
    Who knows?
    One can't assume just because a MB is on a flat-bed, that there is automatically something wrong with it.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    C'mon LJ, how can the IS "have" the Lexus somewhat better than average reliablity when it hasn't been out in the long-term yet? Remember, the old IS actually scored less than the 3 Series in some quality and reliability tests. The 3.5L V-6 has already seen 7 TSB's(2 of which are major-fuel supply and TCC for the tranny) in all '06 models equipped with it from the Avalon to the RAV4 and IS350. And this proves that it is more reliable than German brands, whose BMW 3-Series has been without recall and scoring huge in customer satisfaction(JDP notwithstanding) in both quality and overall perception?

    The fact that "plenty" of your friends gave up the German cars in lieu of Lexus' is a revolving door. I've got "plenty" of people I know that have come from Lexus and vow never to return, even with the encroaching LS coming, may it be personal or business reasons. Reliablity or not, which admittedly is a Lexus strongpoint, tells most of the story on the youngest brand.

    And for the kids play toy, trust me, the richies will definetely want to cruise around in an M3 or S4 over the unproven IS. Even an EVO MR or WRX STI would be better. Just take a look at some of the forums and online clubs. No IS to be mentioned. Ever. Those four cars have the street cred and notarity to be the car to be seen in. The IS, while fun and fast, doesn't have a manual with the 3.5 for 1(a huge setback for the fast and furious set around here in LI, one of the richest parts of the country), and 2, the IS350 looks like the 250 with bigger wheels, no difference whatsoever.

    BTW: Besides the supposed reliablity and upscale Buick persona, exactly what does Lexus have over the Germans? Oh and the price thing is really stale now. For the base price of an LS, you surely won't get all of the standard equipment most of the Germans have, MB and Audi for sure. For instance, for the supposed innovation leader, why is nav still an option? SO safe, then why do you still have to pay for additional airbags? So adept yet the so-called Euro suspension makes the ride worst and handling that much more unpredictable and lousy, why? I can go on.

    This is in no way a Germancarfan attempt at reducing Lexus as I've said before, finally the company is on the move big time. They have flaws, but don't they all? But this whole thing about Lexus is better in every single way has gotta stop. All of a sudden the Lexus goes from being a cruiser to being the TOP PERFORMER? Very wishful thinking. This on the heels a 3 year old C&D test? A test so un believeably rigged from the begining that it should've never taken place. Why pit a less powerful S430 against the 290hp(then) LS430 when clearly the S500 would've tore it to shreds? It's not MB's fault they still haven't gave the car more than 300-hp like every other carmaker did, oh, 6 years ago. Innovation? Hardly.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    oac - ljflx's post # 16493 is about the "r" word, isn't it? And there are numerous references and suggestions throughout. I'm telling you, my friend, it's impossible for Lexus fans to quit harping on the reliability thing, and claiming that Mercedes are being towed in left and right, and all that baloney.

    I can guarantee you there are at least as many luxury cars where I live as in lj's neck of the woods, and I don't see all those S-Classes being towed, for goodness sakes. It's preposterous.

    Anyway, hate to say I told you so.

    TagMan
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    I dont think anybody in his/her right frame of mind would simply choose a german or japanese car because of their origin . It seems like the discussion boils down to this.

    Germans are great in handling, driving dynamics and powerful refined engines and they have okay reliability for the most part.

    Japanese are great in reliability, craftsmanship, smooth-engines, fuel efficiency (due to relatively less performance) and have okay to good driving dynamics but still a shade behind the germans.

    Both germans and Japanese have two things in common:

    1. Cutting edge technology (germans historically had the edge, but japanese are now neck to neck with germans)
    2. Great Luxurious interiors with warm rich wood and soft rich leather.

    Both germans and japanese are covering their traditionally not so good areas:

    1. Germans are paying more attention to quality and reliability (though mercedes has historically been very good with some of its models)
    2. Japanese are paying more attention to agility and power to weight ratio (look at the new LS and IS, and Infiniti G35 and M).

    So there is this convergence and everybody is now covering everything to be competitive:

    1. Power, driving dynamics, agility
    2. Innovation, technology,
    3. Beautiful luxurious interiors, ergonomics, ambience
    4. Quality, reliability, safety, peace of mind driving experience.

    There are other important factors:

    1. Heritage: on road and on track (germans having a clear edge here)
    2. Consistency in terms of exterior design and being true to your goals.

    My reading is that now and in future, Both asian and euro HELMs will attain parity in most departments retaining their own unique personality, however there will be two areas where they will differ:

    1. Germans will have a SLIGHT edge in driving dynamics due to their autobahn culture.
    2. Japanese will have a SLIGHT edge in terms of craftsmanship and reliability due to their perfectionist samurai culture.

    In the end I truly wish them all the best. May the best HELM win your heart. And I also feel that we should stop fighting and keep our thread in harmony. This will not only help us all it will also help the emergence of new ideas and processes.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Steve,

    That is your best post . . . EVER . . . to this forum.

    Let me be the first to congratulate you. Some may find areas to agree and disagree, but who cares? Terrific post.

    Thank you.

    :D

    TagMan
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    Relax Doc, we are all brothers in arms. We are all here to have fun just like you. Keep it up my friend! We need both camps to be strong to have an exciting match.
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