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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    lenscap, the front end may indeed resemble the ES, but looking at the whole car, some in the trade press think MB is copying Jaguar. Here's a quote from AutoWeek: "the CLS...is being referred to internally as a “Jaguar-fighter,” and designers are said to have borrowed much from Jag’s overall design themes. Typical Jaguar design elements such as the long bonnet, low roof, shallow side glass and sloping tail are integral to the shape." The full article is at http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=autoshows&loc_code=&content_code=09613208

    So, maybe MB "copied" from both Lexus and Jag in one car!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That does indeed look like a combo of an ES and a Jag.

    DonFenn - Sounds like you are having a grand time with your car. Enjoy! It's great to have so many choices with each car bringing a different level of excellence to the table.
  • 300eguy05300eguy05 Member Posts: 39
    I am not sure if I like the new CLS. Edmunds is saying that it will be more expensive than the S-Class. I think the CLS does look like the ES in the front a bit. The rear reminds me of an Aston Martin concept.

    As for the LS. I like the refreshed model the more and more I see it. It is much better looking IMO. It looks more aggressive and I think that might be exactly what it needs.

    I am seriously considering the purchase of 04 XJ. I am totally in love with the car. Just by looks alone. I will take a test drive perhaps this weekend.

    And finally, arguing over a tail light cover... Come on. Some of you are looking way too deep into this. Tail Lights, Wheel patterns, gear shift patterns? Let it go!
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    It seems that many folks just like to tout their favorite automaker, and debate subjective issues like who is copying who......Meanwhile, I am for hearing more substantive feedback from other aficiandos and drivers of these cars.

    300eguy05: I am curious to hear how you feel about the Jaguar after spending some time behind the wheel. I actually started my shopping thinking that I wanted a new 500 E class Mercedes, and then went through the BMW 745, the Audi A8, the S Class Mercedes, while still thinking about the virtues of my '02 Q45.....I obviously ended up with the XJR Jag.. But, it may not be the car for for everyone either.

    My kids told me that they thought that Jags were old men's cars....That was until they saw my new car-- and took a ride.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    What were your impressions of the 7 series? Also why did you pass on looking at the LS430? It does seem you were looking at the more sport oriented lux cars as your primary choices.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    The 7 Series drives and handles like a fine sporting sedan... traits that are a hallmark of BMW. It feels great on the road. I just had a hard time with its looks: the backside elevation. I also did not like the complex 'I drive" system. I think that the '04 revised 7 series will have a cleaner looking back end, but I was not going to wait for another few months for it to come out.

    I like the Lexus LS, but I found it a bit more luxury oriented than sporty. (I might be more of a GS 430 type of guy) Lexus builds a quality vehicle, but I found the LS looks just a bit staid for my taste...The tweaks of the upcoming '04 look like they will make it a bit more aggressive looking.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    What are you talking about? What magazine has ever said anything about a Benz looking like a Ford? Don't give me the instance in which some woman off the street said something about the S-Class looking like a Taurus. Show me where a automotive writer has drawn such an conclusion. What magazine said this?

    Your second paragraph about the Taurus is just your wild fantasy. Why in the world would European makers be upset by a mass-market car like the Taurus that doesn't even compete with them in any sort of way. Secondly, the Cadillac Sixteen isn't going to be built, nor has any European maker borrowed anything from it. No you always say that I'm just making things up, yet you have absolutely no basis for all this wild stuff you're talking about now. None.

    What you'll never get is that Audi's A8, Jaguar's XJ and BMW's 7-Series don't look anything like each other. You haven't even seen the 04' LS430 in person yet right? How can you say it hasn't taken cues from the current S-Class, especially the 03' S-Class' facelift? You're right there is a definite difference between copying and borrowing details. The current LS430 is about as close to a copy of the old S-Class as legally possible. Now they've gone and slicked back the front and added clear sections to the tailights to resemble the current S.

    You're right about something else, there are a lot of cars that end up looking similar, but when we're talking about a 20K compared to a 80K I'm more inclined to think that it's more of two companies thinking alike more than borrowing or even a sheer coincidence. You can't tell me for a minute that Lexus just accidently made the LS430 look like the old S and now by the same coincidence the 04' facelift just so happened to borrow from the S-Class, the car that is sole reason for the LS400/430's being.

    It's amazing that one would see the resemblance between a Ford and Benz, but can't see it in Lexus' main reason for exisiting. Of course Mercedes isn't all original all the time, but they were a lot more so before someone began copying any and everything from them. Truth be told the only brand the lacks originality in the luxury market now is Lexus, they've admitted as much and have stated that a family look is coming for all their cars. It's about time. The sole reason that copying is dismissed because it's Lexus thats doing it, but yet a Benz looks like a Ford and thats news. But you're right the copying issue is done so we'll just have to agree to disagree as we have over the past 4 years and move on. Lets talk about something else.

    Oh and you're going to love this, I hate the CLS. It doesn't look like a Mercedes at all, it's horrible.

    sv7887,

    I'm done with that issue after this post, but to answer to some of your questions see above post to ljflx.

    DonFenn,

    The XJR will get smoked by an S55, its no contest.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Can't you see that no one agrees with you on the tail light issue including Benz owners. You are either imagining it or trying to convince yourself of it or maybe the LS just haunts you. That is the conclusion I've come to from all your comments.

    As for the taurus/sixteen comment - let's just say that I hobnob with high level European execs who sit on supervisory boards and who have connections to the auto industry there and I will leave it at that.

    Now - as DonnFenn said so well - it is time to walk away from such a silly discussion on copying.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Awhile ago on this board there was a discussion of how many people could afford a Maybach. I think I pointed out that just because X number of people could afford one, does not mean that anywhere near X will buy, and I posited that Maybach's entry wouldn't expand the market that much. Well, the early results are in:

     http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB106323944050722900-search,00.h- - - tml?collection=wsjie%2F30day&vql_string=chilly%3Cin%3E%28arti- - - cle%2Dbody%29

    And if that link doesn't work, try going to: http://online.wsj.com/home/us and typing the word "chilly" into the search box at the top of the page, and then clicking on the article from 9/11/03.
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    Do you remember the Ford commercials touting the Granada as being confused for a $12,500 Seville or a Mercedes? I think that it was back in 1975. I wonder if the message boards were buzzing? Does Edmunds archive the old messages?
    ;-)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Yes, I remember a commercial that put a silver Granada on the top half of the screen and a silver MB on the bottom, and telling the viewer that they could look like they were driving an MB but for thousands less.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    Merc1 said "The XJR will get smoked by an S55, its no contest" ........."smoked" is a strong characterization...over-the-top and incorrect.

    S55's are cool cars. And, for the huge added cost of an S55, it certainly should smoke an XJR ---but it does not.

    I wish that some people would look at the stats, before overstating their opinions.

    This strong statement is not supported by empirical facts, or recent reviews and discussions in Automobile Magazine or Car and Driver magazine.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    He's right in one sense though - it does indeed smoke it - on price.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If I'm imagining the tailamp issue (on a car you haven't yet seen right?) then surely you're surely imagining that a Ford is the cause of any thoughts among European carmakers, especially Mercedes.....and surely your theory about the Cadillac Sixteen is even more baseless. You haven't even seen the 04' LS430 in person yet right? What you got from a conversation with someone is oh-so important and more importantly true, but nobody else is allowed to draw any conclusions about something they can actually see. For the record I see one Benz owner saying anything different from what I said, unlike more Lexus fans who don't seem to be in as big a state of denial.

    DonFenn,

    You stated that you thought the XJR was faster than the S55, and I said that the XJR would get smoked in that reguard and it does. "I wish that some people would look at the stats, before overstating their opinions." Thats exactly what you should have done.

    The facts:

    Mercedes-Benz S55 AMG: 493hp, 516lb-ft of torque, 0-60 mph: 4.6 secs.
    Jaguar XJR: 390hp, 399lb-ft of torque, 0-60 mph: 5.0 secs.

    These are purely from MB's and Jaguar's websites. The XJR has actually been tested by Road and Track and it took 5.1 secs to get to 60 mph, the current S55 has yet to be tested, but if the similarly powerful S600 is any indication the S55 will do the same feat in about 4.4 secs or faster. Lets not even discuss grip, and passing and 1/4 mile performance, the Benz will crush the cat. Performance wise the XJR is indeed toast. The only area the XJR might outperform the Benz is in braking, due to it's brilliantly light (lighter than the A8 too) construction. That said it's still a great car and a bargain compared to a S55 or 760Li, but those cars do outperform it.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Ridiculous. It's as if we are talking about eyelashes on a person. I have seen more than enough pictures of the car and I had a hard time seeing any changes in the tail light in the first place. As I said before someone had to point out the changes to me - and others on the LS board - who could'nt discern the taillight change since it was so incredibly minor.

    That's it for me on this silly taillight discussion.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    If we're going to pay attention to tailamps, what about headlights?

    The LS went to a clear cover/reflective silver inside with its headlights in 1998. MB did this with the S I believe in 2002 or 2003 (earlier in the S's life they were more whitish/less transparent when viewed from the outside). Does this mean MB "copied" Lexus? If I were as fanatic about Lexus as some here are about MB, I would say definitely, and call anyone who disagreed with me blind or worse.

    But actually, I'm not a fanatic. I only bring headlights up in the context of the tailamp silliness.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Actually, with the LS taillight it seems Lexus is just repeating something they've done before. In 2000 they changed the taillight on the ES 300 so that the orange portion became clear.

    Further, if memory serves correctly I believe it was Toyota that first used clear turn signals (instead of orange) on taillights back in 1988 with the Supra.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    lenscap, so that means that MB copied Lexus again! hehheh.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Seinfeld should come back and do a special show on it. The show about nothing is a perfect description for this taillight thing since it's about nothing. I miss Kramer, George, Jerry and Elaine. They would know how to put this taillight thing in perspective. Remember Jerry's car odor problem and the other one where the mechanic steals the car because Jerry isn't maintaining it properly. Plus all those problems they had with parking places - the pigman episode, the front end parker vs. the back-end parker etc, and of course losing the car at the mall. It would be fun.
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    I am already thinking of trading my 2004 RX330 (all my friends have seen it) for a sedan. I am considering the 2004 LS 430, Audi A8L, and Jaguar XJ8. I hope to drive the Audi and Jaguar this weekend. I hated driving 90 minutes for service for the Audi. The Audi A6 was troublesome. I never had a problem with my Q45 (1994) or 2002 LS430, so I didn't mind driving for service.

    Don's comments on his XJR have encouraged me to lean towards the Jag. I worry about depreciation too.

    I will let you know what I think about my test drives.

    Scott in Florida
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    My hometown doesn't have an Acura, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus or Jaguar dealership. Does this make me a redneck?

    What if I don't care that the S55 is .40 seconds faster than the XJR?

    Can I overcome my humble beginnings and be taught to appreciate tail light design?

    Is there hope?

    Scott
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Thanks for your amusing post 2780. No, where you live and what you value in a car doesn't make you a redneck. Personnally I don't aspire to own a car that tops out at 210mph or whatever, since we live in a country with slightly lower speed limits.

    I haven't studied the A8 but recall some talk that it has had some problems, suggest you check the audi boards.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    I was thinking the exact same thing about the taillight and Seinfeld! The episode where they all got lost in the parking garage was on TBS last night after the Atlanta Braves game and I totally thought the taillight would make a great episode.

    Not to get off topic, but I do miss Seinfeld a lot. Speaking of cars, what about the episode where Kramer accidentally got the wrong license plate and put it on his car (A**MAN).

    And speaking of Seinfeld, I saw part of a show on E! the other night with cameramen videotaping celebrities. They caught up with Jerry and his dead Porsche which eventually had to be towed. The same thing happened to another celebrity and her Porsche on the same show (I can't remember her name) and the announcer said something like "So much for German engineering."
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That was one of my favorites. In fact it was just on last night.

    Now how's this for an episode. Kramer hits lotto and buys an LS430. George inherits his parents money and buys an S-500. Jerry has married Elaine and drives a 745LI. Kramer who always drove bombs is not used to the exceptional brakes in an LS430 and stops short at a traffic light which had just turned yellow. George who is used to his S-500 plows into him and wrecks his taillights. Jerry is behind them with Elaine but looks at a beautiful girl on the sidewalk (hey remember that one with the heir to the O'henry fortune) and plows into George wrecking the Benz taillights. They bring the cars over to David Puddy - who now owns a body shop - who proceeds to put the Benz taillight on the Lexus and the Lexus taillight on the Benz creating a big fight between George and Kramer not to mention a huge debate and argument on various Edmunds boards. Naturally Steinbrenner calls George on his cell inviting him back for an exec job, NBC calls Jerry to resurrect the Jerry show and Elaine files for divorce. Kramer - who knows - he's capable of anything. The show closes with Newman pulling up to his mansion in the suburbs in his Rolls Royce taking the mail out of his mailbox.

    What creativity merc1 stirs in me.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! That would be a great episode, ljflx!
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    I love your creativity! Didn't Kramer once "stop short" (as you put it) with George's mother in the passenger seat and George's father thought Kramer was making a pass at her?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Yep that was the A--MAN episode - also known as the FUSILI JERRY episode. By the way one of the other funny car shows was the one where Jerry is trying to buy a Saab from David Puddy playing a new car salesman. That was the one where the candy machine fails to drop the twix bar George selected.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    Thanks for the levity with the Seinfeld stuff. We need a bit of levity around here. Some people take themselves too seriously.

    Merc1:

    So, you like to use strong words regarding a comparison of the XJR's performance vs the S55....It is my opinion that you are wrong, and go way overboard by using terms like "smokes the XJR" "crush the cat" "its no contest" ..etc. I get a kick out of your exaggerations and overstatements.

    So, I felt compelled to grab a couple of quotes from recent "Road and Track" and "Car and Driver" magazines to answer your comments. I do not agree with everything that I read, and I am not saying that automobile jounalism is beyond reproach, but their credentials are a bit more discernable than yours..........

    So, here is a quote from Car and Driver's August issue about the XJR: "That puts the car (XJR) right into the hunt with the Mercedes S55 AMG and BMW 760Li, at a base price—$74,995—that's $30,000 to $40,000 lower than those esteemed models'"........

    And, Road and Track's August issue says: "A check of our Road Test Summary shows the XJR handily out-classing our "Five-Star Sedans," the Audi S8, BMW 740i and Mercedes-Benz S55 AMG comparison-tested in November 2001. The Mercedes-Benz S55 was the quickest of this trio, but the XJR beats it by a bunch: 5.1 seconds to 60 versus the S55's 5.7. The Jag reaches the quarter mile in 13.5 sec. at 105.9 mph versus the S55's 14.1 at 102.7."....

    I think that for the XJR to be in ballpark with the S55 at such a huge differential is impressive. Apparently, there is little debate about that with most folks.

    As a luxury car driver and consumer, I recognize the value... and the performance that it buys. As a self-proclaimed expert, you apparently march to your own drummer...

    By the way, I could buy a couple of spare Mitsubishis for less than this price differential...Does that illustrate the XJR vs S55 value issue for you?
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,

    Having the S55 beat the XJR by 0.4 of a sec is hardly "burning" it. As far as the other specs, that's what they are mere numbers. I seriously doubt anyone who owns these cars are going to race them.

    Those stats are merely tibits for the bull sessions drivers of these cars engage in. I doubt they translate to driving on the Interstate for example. Anyone attempting to realize the full potential of their cars is likely going to get pulled over for their trouble. (At least in MA anyway)

    Considering the XJ is $30K (Correct me if I'm wrong) cheaper than the S55 those stats are pretty good.

    Besides, there has to be alot of fun had at preying on unsuspecting Mustang and teenage drivers at stoplights, who mistake the Jaguar XJR as an old people's car LOL..XJR owners, have you had any experiences like this? :P

    Happy Motoring,
    SV
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Let's do try to do an objective analysis so that hopefully we can put the taillight discussion to rest.

    Here are the facts:

    http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Celsior/exteri- - or/images/ex04_svg.jpg

    http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/models/gallery/photo_ga- - llery/index.jsp&mcode=S500V&modelCode=S500V&menu=5_0

    1. As far as overall shape, the S taillights are triangular, whereas the LS are trapezoidal.

    2. The S lights don't extend partly onto the trunk, whereas the LS clearly do.

    3. As someone else posted, the S has FOUR clear strips, the LS only ONE.

    4. Per lenscap's post, Lexus put a clear strip on the ES taillight in 2000, and Toyota did it with the Supra in 1998. So was MB first?

    5. LS's taillights are predominately red. Oh my gosh, they must be copying MB!

    6. LS's taillights are - of all places - on the back of the car! Oh my gosh, they must be copying MB!

    Let's get real. Someone out there may have an overactive imagination when it comes to seeing copying.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Ummmm....

    I thought we had all agreed to leave the arguments about "copying" by the wayside.

    CLEARLY this is an issue about which we are not going to all agree - let's just agree to disagree and move on! No mind is going to be changed on this so it is pointless to continue to argue about it.

    We made this same agreement a couple of months ago, y'know...

    It is always interesting to me how sometimes a post fervently pursues some sort of beaten-to-death issue and then closes with words to the effect of "now we should stop talking about it."

    The way to "stop talking about it" is to stop talking about it. Expressing further thoughts about an issue invites others to make their counterpoints. Closing an opinion-filled post with "we need to stop talking about it now" is fruitless. What has happened is that the poster has said "I've had my say and you don't get to have yours." Why would anyone accept that?

    Continuing to argue "your side" continues to invite others to argue "their side." We are discussing opinions here, folks. Opinions are not something that can ever be objectified.

    LET'S MOVE AWAY FROM THE COPYING ISSUE NOW, please!

    :)
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    By the way, I do appreciate the virtues of the S55, and it it was available for $75,000 I might have bought or leased one!
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    I heard that Oliver Stone is working on a new script that involves a tail light cloning conspiracy....
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Nice to see your funny side. By the way your posts are fabulous.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    I agree that we need to talk about other things besides tail lights.

    News Flash: I just realized that the kidney shaped, and oval grill sections on several high end cars, such as Mercedes, Jaguar, and BMW are all descended from the big enlongated grill on the Edsel!

    ....enough levity?
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Would you guys like to see a chrome and aluminum
    style interior in the LS430 or do you think it should stay with the conservative wood look?

    I think the new 18" wheels look terrific on the Lexus. It is as big of an improvemment as the 16" wheels were on the '93s.

    It gives the car a completely different character and makes it look less slabsided.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The data you've presented is for the 2001 S55 AMG. The current (2003 onward) S55 has a 100+ advantage in hp and torque over the XJR. If the current E55 vs S-Type R (same engines) are any indication, the Jag is easily outdone when it comes to performance. Check the figues in C&D for the similarly powerful S600 if you don't believe it. Nobody is saying the XJR isn't competitive, but it doesn't put up much of a fight in the performance category with the current S55 AMG.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    To each his own, but personnally I like to see wood in a luxury sedan, and the more the better. I think of aluminum as belonging more in a sports car.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    It is interesting that you talk about 100 more horses but don't actually state performance figures...Hmmmmmmmmmm

    P.S.

    Have you ever driven an LS 430???
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    This is NOT a discussion that is going to devolve into petty personal affronts and challenges.

    We are here to enjoy the attributes of the truly high end vehicles in the world in which we live. We can compare and contrast those attributes, but taking our differing opinions to a personally confrontive and argumentative level is NOT what this discussion is about.

    If you want to argue with someone, go find an appropriate comparison topic (and you KNOW you need to stay within the Membership Agreement's requirement for civil and respectful discourse).

    The purpose of THIS discussion is to ENJOY what the truly high end vehicles offer to all of us ... whether we are in a position to acquire such a vehicle or not.

    Thanks.
  • linardlinard Member Posts: 59
    For the S600, Car and Driver got a 0-60 time of 4.3. Yes, you read that right, 4.3!

    http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=- 6741&page_number=1

    For the S55, its 4.6...
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Mike,

    See post #2770. I would think that if a car has those type of hp and torque advantages over a competing car that the peformance difference would be clearly obvious to anyone, it shouldn't even require numbers to see which cars clearly dominates the performance category.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Also remember most Mercedes' best the factory numbers upon independent testing, the S55 is probably just as fast if not quicker than the heavier (4300lbs vs 4600lbs) S600.

    M
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    At some point in time, the advantages of such hyper-high performance numbers can result in liabilities when it comes to ride quality and overall balance. The real advantage of that might, just might, become more obvious in Autobahn-Land as you accelerate from 130mph to 155mph+ after being caught behind a mere mortal standing in your way. For 0-60, and especially everyday driveability, you get into diminishing results. Reinforced drivetrains to handle 500hp and 19-inch wheels will seldom result in a smooth ride when the going gets choppy, which is the case all too often in (let's admit it) rather poorly maintained US roads (Californians are especially hard hit).

    The XJR strikes a great balance: it is never harsh, it has performance to reshape your eye- and any other ball-shaped objects in your anatomy, and due to its class leading weight you don't have to go for one of those offensive mpg figures that often come as a pentalty with very high performance. I know my XJR (older model) often would not make it beyond 14mpg, which makes me uncomfortable, even though I am not missionary when it comes to others chosing it - more power to them, literally.

    So it boils down to what it always is: different value propositions. The S55 seduces with sheer numbers, and we all know there's a great brag value in that, but in best Jaguar tradition the XJR goes merely for elegance and balance, and regards anything that is too extreme (hard to say in a 300++HP package) as rather vulgar.

    Sure, the S has a 20% advantage in horsepower and 10% advantage in 0-60 times (Autobild numbers, which are very consistent). Then again, the 18% disadvantage in heft leads to a 38% disadvantage in mpg (there a square law in physics there, remember), which can hover around under 13mpg for long stretches according to tests. Personally, I think balance typically leads to more satisfying long term satisfaction in cars. (Actually, I found the older generation XJR too radical for me after 2 years...)
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    I am pleasantly surprised that my '04 XJR is showing me an average fuel economy of 17.4 mpg after about 1700 miles. I find that impressive in real life L.A. traffic...This is what amazes most about his car. You hardly know that the supercharger is there when you are stuck in stop and go traffic, or running around the corner to pick up groceries...But, when you need it, this thing can respond like a monster.

    I find it really remarkable that Merc1 now wants to pick a 12 cylinder, 125k car (S600)to compare to a $75k car. Or, he uses the latest numbers of a much smaller E55 in his comparison.

    Merc1 lets come back to a real-life value comparison: Compare the similarly priced S430 or S500 at their real "price point" to a 75k Jaguar XJR. The XJR leaves the S430 in the parking lot, and the S500 has to work very hard to play with the XJR. No contest.

    For sake of an analogy, do you want to compare your Mitsubishi Eclipse with a Saleen Mustang or a 350Z? ...I know, its not a fair comparison, right?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    There are a number of factors other then HP that influence 0-60 and 1/4 mile speed tests...

    I am surprised you did not know that

    THE NUMBERS DO MATTER....
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Great points and therein lies all my problems with auto testers. Most of them don't care about ride quality. But most (probably 95%+) of us do. So to rate a car best because it pleases them on performance is assanine.

    DonnFenn - That has always been the problem with Merc1. Price doesn't enter into the equation for him and that is totally illogical. I have that same problem with auto reviewers. They penalize a car for being the highest price in their ratings summary and don't take into consideration that if the price is levelled all the performance goodies they love come off the car.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...I absolutely agree. I actually have come to the point where I can quite sure that whatever emerges first in a mag test would never be my personal pick, too, so I can safely eliminate it as an option in my buying list...

    For example, I actually had a deposit down to buy one of the first Minis when they came out - I loved the design and was sure it'd be a blast. Read the reviews, and they were utterly gloving, I could hardly wait. The I took a test ride on the S with the sports package, and I could not stand it. The ride was utterly jarring over Bay Area roads, which contain a generous amount of potholes, and the test car was squeaking out of every corner after 3k miles due to the abuse those sharp jolts had transmitted to every piece of the car. I still think it might be a fun additional car, but I'd stay well clear of the sports package that every US journalist so seems to implicitly recommend.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Ok, I'm done with the S55 vs XJR debate as it seems you're not willing to go by the facts here.
    I never ever said that the XJR wasn't a bargain compared to the S55, but you stated initially that the XJR was faster than the S55 and that sir is simply not true. I used the S600 as an example because the current S55 and S600 have the same hp ratings, with their only difference being torque (516lb-ft for the S55 compared to 590lb-ft for the S600) and weight...the S55 being lighter by 300lbs. It seems that since your 01' S55 data was out of date you're now comparing the XJR to the S430 and S500, neither of which compete with the XJR for sporting rights, knowing that there would be no contest there anyway. No where in my statements did I ever mention the S600 as a direct competitor to the XJR, I only used it as a performance reference, due to very similar power. You've turned the whole thing back around to a value question, of which I wasn't even contesting, it was the sheer performance of the two cars that was in contention. The S55 outperforms the XJR Don, all the value aside for a momement, wasn't performance the topic of dissussion here? The S500 and S430 aren't performance models, the S55 is, the car you mentioned. Since the current data doesn't support the XJR you're now saying they don't compete because of price, after supporting the magazine quotes saying that they do.

    michael_mattox,

    "There are a number of factors other then HP that influence 0-60 and 1/4 mile speed tests..."

    You missed the whole point, which was that just by looking at the raw data on the two cars, you'd be able to see that one car should and does easily outperform another. Are you telling me that anything otherwise is possible between these two cars? What factors are going to be present to prevent the 493hp S55 from soundly beating the 390hp XJR at the track? You're right numbers do matter, and they would prove that the S55 outpeforms the XJR.

    It seems we aren't ever going to see eye to eye on anything, when I can admit things about reliability and price, but you guys aren't even willing to admit the obvious here: the XJR is clearly outdone performance wise compared to the S55. I'm done with this one, since we aren't going to use the facts.

    M
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