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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Like it or not, the A8 is here to stay. Low exports to the States or high, the car has a great following of people that own them.

    BTW: The A8 and S are often neck and neck in Europe and elsewhere. Often times, the A8 will outsell the S, especially before the '07. So again, these baseless facts that have come about by yourself and others are just that: baseless and tired. The A8 is limited by export only on the restraint that the company has because they build them as fast as they sell. If Lexus sold as many LS' in the native Asia as they do here, then it'll be the same way. But then again, the A8 does outsell it there too, by quite a margin.

    And more on the "value" quotent of the LS. Yes, it does win here. But a fully opted LS(average transaction of 70k) is where the big guns usually start, the A8, XJ, and 7. And with the average transaction of a S550 nowadays at 92-95k, it seems that the LS is the discount of the class. And with prices moving up only slightly, it's likely to stay that way. So in that saying, you really do get what you pay for...

    The LJ v. Audi of America case has been thrown out, so why retry it??
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,921
    What a great post. The exact same thoughts that I had but could never have expressed them as well. Thank you.

    Even in the best of times some people buy stocks and lose money, some people buy houses and lose money, and nearly everyone who buys a depreciating asset like a car loses money. Some just lose much more than they should.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • emaussemauss Posts: 151
    Oh, I see. So I guess one can no longer lease an MB at a low or "reasonable" rate since.."many of (the leasing companies) went bankrupt or stopped underwriting leases as a result (..of subsidizing MB)"?

    ...and please reserve you sorrow. While your humanity is noted, it takes away from a factual presentation.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    "The LS, like it or not, is perceived to be a "value HELM."

    I'm not knocking the car-just stating a fact-since it competes against the MB S-Class.

    Remember-all S-Class buyers can afford an LS, but surely not all LS buyers can afford to step up to a MB S-Class."


    A. Slight correction. The LS is perceived as the "Best Value HELM". There's a difference.

    B. Also surely, very few LS buyers see going to the S-Class as a step up. ;)

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    "And more on the "value" quotent of the LS. Yes, it does win here. But a fully opted LS(average transaction of 70k) is where the big guns usually start, the A8, XJ, and 7. And with the average transaction of a S550 nowadays at 92-95k, it seems that the LS is the discount of the class. And with prices moving up only slightly, it's likely to stay that way. So in that saying, you really do get what you pay for..."

    Perhaps a review of the word "Value" is in order? You may not be familiar with this word, as it is rarely used in association with an Audi. :P

    DrFill
  • atlas7atlas7 Posts: 126
    Just because a car costs more, doesn't mean it's a better car. The Germans have much much higher Labor costs than the Japanese and therefore their cars cost a lot more to build. If I am not mistaken, the Germans have the highest car labor costs in the world. Lexus builds cars just as good for less, due to the difference in labor costs.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "Like it or not, the A8 is here to stay. Low exports to the States or high, the car has a great following of people that own them."

    OK - I'll agree with you and I certainly hope the A8 stays around - but the sales in the US are still minimal and barely on the radar scope.
  • atlas7atlas7 Posts: 126
    I agree, The Audi's are nice cars, but they seem to be flying under the radar. I am in the market for a new Luxo Sedan. Considered Audi, the A8, but I just don't see that many of them. I live in the DC Metropolitan area, so it's not like there aren't a lot of Luxo Sedans on the road. Audi, nice styling, nice engines, handle, but don't like the interior at all....to each his own.
  • mickylmickyl Posts: 14
    Hi, Atlas7, I am also in DC area and in the market for a large sedan. I am curious as to what you are leaning toward paying? I have checked Maserati QP and have just decided to drop that off my consideration for now. I am thinking about MBS550.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I just caught the new Q7 commercial, a text book example of a boring, forgettable ad. A lousy song and a few panning shots of the Q7 driving down the road. I could've done better with a Handycam. I really hope that isn't the best the "new" Audi marketing department can come up with.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Well, I see the pomp-pomps rolled out after his [Merc1] downloads and rants on Lexus and Lexfans. I've also seen the adulation he gets for, shall we say, stomping on some of our posts... With the Eurofan cheerleading each other, you refer to Lexfans as "kool aid drinkers". All we do is give our opinions of our fav brands. None is any more important than the other. I'd hope we ALL (me included) tone down the volume of our rhetoric... It'll benefit all, IMO.

    Oac, when you compliment others has anyone ever criticized you for it? I would thank you not to criticize me for complimenting Merc. He doesn’t need anyone to instigate him. He says what he wants. Let’s not make it an issue please.

    On the subject of beefs here’s mine. It seems as if some in the Lexus camp would like to see German brands dead and buried, particularly Mercedes. I find this curious not to mention ire-provoking. I don’t recall hearing anything like this from fans of other makes even though they criticize competing brands. There are some hardcore car fans around the internet but I can’t say I have heard them revel in the prospect of another company’s misfortune.

    Anyway, you have been very friendly and generous to me with your compliments. If I have said anything to cause resentment I apologize. I am here to read and write, not offend, not get wrapped up in tedious arguments, and not pound anyone over the head with my opinions. And I like to think that many of us are friends in spite of being faceless words traversing the ether.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Honda is actively developing clean diesel engines for the US market, and VW is working on those funky super-turbo charged engines. Toyota on the other hand seems to be all in with hybrids, at least for now.

    I understand that Toyota is also on a leading edge with hydrogen and is also active with diesels. No matter what happens with hybrid, I would imagine they are prepared to adapt quite readily.

    I am sensing a resistance to hybrid. Battery size and storage is one thing, but the convoluted technology is another. I think the idea of having several power plants of different nature is a source of concern for many, regardless of how perfectly Toyota pulls it off. I hear people saying…. this is very complex and therefore subjects me to potential problems. Spending $24k on a Prius with conscience-laden concerns is a lot different from spending $55k on a performance sedan.

    I think IS and GS are miscalculated so I believe Lexus is not as adroit with their product design as they are with manufacturing. Camry could be a bust and the LS600h a success or vice versa. Psychology and perceptions can sometimes preclude the significance of a company’s financials in the stock market. A similar dynamic can affect hybrid. I am not saying this will happen but I think it is possible and not improbable.

    Early in the digital epoch there were high hopes for Apple and the ground-breaking Macintosh. We know what happened with Microsoft. These next several years will be interesting but to tell you the truth I would not be surprised at any direction hybrid takes, good, bad or indifferent.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The reviews I have seen put the Q7 behind the X5 in the handling department.

    So what else is new?

    By the way, the Porsche Cayman S has twice the trunk space as the Lexus GS450h!
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    STOP THE PRESSES!! Thou LJ said agree and Audi in the same sentence. Just kidding, but I also agree with you that the A8 sales aren't impressive given that this is the largest car market on Earth. Sales not being factored in, the car is very impressive.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Like TagMan and other Eurofans have opined about affordability of S-class vs an LS, where S-class buyers can afford an LS, while not all LS owners can afford an S. What's the point here ? That LS owners are poorer than S-class owners ? Like Len pointed out, average income group for LS owners is $250K 3 buying years ago.... So what does ownership of a $50-70K car vs ownership of a $75-90K S-class mean ? Like another $50K higher in annual income, if that ? I have argued that many who drive an S don't pay cold hard cash for these cars. I may not have the hard facts to prove this, but neither can anyone prove the opposite. If anyone has facts that majority of S owners paid CASH for their cars, pls bring it out.

    So if most owners of the LS and S drive these on lease purchases, do factors like interest rates, money factor, promotions, discounts, etc.... play a significant role in the drive-out price of that lease ? That's when you look at the 3-year timeline when many of these cars go off-lease. What are they truly worth, not the hyper inflated/bloated MSRP these cars are listed for ? And show us which S-class/LS430 is selling at MSRP, eh .....

    So let's see what a 3-yr-old LS430 UL, vs S430 retails for ?

    KBB retail price:
    '03 LS430UL (MSRP of $71K) = $52,825 (Excellent rating, 36K miles)
    '03 S430 (MSRP of $83K) = $53,475 (Excellent rating, 36K miles)

    So is the S-class more uppity than the LS or are some S-class owners simply throwing good money after bad ? You be the judge....
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    LG, I usually can respect most of your posts. But this one has topped them all.

    You say that the Q7 has a boring ad. Well picture this, an RX350 ad that shows the car driving at night then all of a sudden it crosses paths with a deer. The ad was to highlight the swivel headlights of the RX. Nothing special as every carmaker has them now. No word on the mechanicals of the RX. Not utility. Not seating configurations. Nothing. Haven't even seen ads for the ES and IS yet. But they're still running the 1 year old ads on the LS', maybe in an attempt to sell the leftovers, which is brilliant.

    BTW: The Q7 sales have been much higher than anticipated by Audi, so this one definetely won't be a sales dud. It sold more last month than the MDX, SRX, X5, and RX. Being a new model does help out with this for sure.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I knew I was forgetting sumpin'!

    Everytime I see that commercial, I cringe. :(

    Audi CAN make good commercials, doh. Or at least they have before, with the 1996 (?) A4 ("Get ready for the ride of your life!").

    But they need to fire this ad agency, toot sweet! :confuse:

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Everybody has 'em?

    Nobody needs to be sold on the RX350, as it has legendary a Deathgrip on the market!

    When it comes to the RX, we don't need to start with a bowl and spoon. At this point it's "Say when!" when I bust out the whipped cream and cherries. ;)

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    "I am sensing a resistance to hybrid. Battery size and storage is one thing, but the convoluted technology is another. I think the idea of having several power plants of different nature is a source of concern for many, regardless of how perfectly Toyota pulls it off

    I think IS and GS are miscalculated so I believe Lexus is not as adroit with their product design as they are with manufacturing. Camry could be a bust...."

    Maybe someone has hacked into Hp's computer and conjured up this :confuse: of a post.

    There is no response to ideas so off the wall, so here's hoping you'll see clear to have this imposter thrown off your estate IMMEDIATELY!

    Hp wouldn't say anything that off-base.

    Nooooooo! :surprise:

    DrFill
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "Sales not being factored in, the car is very impressive."

    Never said it wasn't and before that crazy grille was added it was the most beautiful car in the segment. The grille has to go. It looks like me when I wake up at 6-6:30 AM - big big yawn.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    You say that the Q7 has a boring ad. Well picture this, an RX350 ad that shows the car driving at night then all of a sudden it crosses paths with a deer. The ad was to highlight the swivel headlights of the RX. Nothing special as every carmaker has them now. No word on the mechanicals of the RX. Not utility. Not seating configurations. Nothing. Haven't even seen ads for the ES and IS yet. But they're still running the 1 year old ads on the LS', maybe in an attempt to sell the leftovers, which is brilliant.

    That RX ad is not my favorite, but it still works very well. Most people probably aren't aware that most luxury cars have swiveling headlights now (anyway, Tucker and Citroen did the swiveling headlight thing LONG before Lexus, Mercedes, or Audi). The RX ad points out a fancy feature on the Lexus people may not be aware of, using a memorable situation. The "dimpled panels" ad for the LS is very similar. They don't have to get into something as boring as mechanicals or seating configurations. Mechanicals are for sports cars, and seating configurations are for minivans. The RX is neither. The point of a TV ad should be to get you to remember the car. The RX ad does that. The Q7 ad does not.

    The IS350 ads aim squarely at 3 series buyers, so pretty much all the talk is about its 306 hp and how fast it is. The ES "Is it possible to engineer desire?" ad uses robotic "fingers" to slam home the message of interior luxury. Why cant Audi come up with something clever and memorable like that? Pretty much all of the mags agree that their interiors are magnificent, but I can't remember a single Audi commercial that even mentioned their interiors at all.

    The Q7 commercial reminded me of something Mercury or some other brand that has no idea of its mission or what its products are about would do. Play song, show car, wrap it up with "Q7, from the makers of Quattro". I'm already in a coma. Audi isn't like that, they do have great products, you just wouldn't know it by seeing the ad.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I meant Camry HYBRID could be a bust.

    More histrionics, aye? Doc, when you say someone is off the wall you should back it up with an iota, a spot of reasoning.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Can't say I am impressed by any car ads. They are all pretty innocuous. Something like "Car and Driver's 10 Best Cars 15 Years in a Row" is about as effective as you can get IMO.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Say what you want, but I wouldn't pay a $3-5k premium for a hybrid sedan where one loses 30-40% of the trunk space to the regular sedan version. Neither would thousands of others.

    The GS450h has only 7.5 cubic feet of trunk space and the Camry hybrid has 10.6 cubic feet of trunk space.

    There is no getting around it. Good idea on paper. Lousy idea in practice.

    Have fun driving around in your new Edsel.

    Hybrid technology will be just another dinosaur in 5 years.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Have fun driving around in your new Edsel.

    Funny thing is that he probably won't buy the Edsel, only talk about it.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Wait until all the modern day Edselites try to unload these dinosaurs in the used vehicle market or back to their friendly Lexus dealer who was so enthusiastic about placing them on the coveted (folly of follies) "waiting list."

    They will learn the true meaning of "depreciation."
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Can't say I am impressed by any car ads. They are all pretty innocuous. Something like "Car and Driver's 10 Best Cars 15 Years in a Row" is about as effective as you can get IMO.

    There have been some pretty great ones. The original SC430 ad where it was in a building with a retractable roof was brilliant. Mercedes and BMW have also done very clever and memorable commercials. Why is it that VW commercials are great (the "unpimp mein auto" ads were hilarious) while Audi commercials are consistently terrible?
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    There have been some pretty great ones.

    Well I find lot's of ads entertaining. However I question their efficacy. There’s an old adage in advertising that I subscribe to… if an ad sells, it is good.

    Why is it that VW commercials are great (the "unpimp mein auto" ads were hilarious) while Audi commercials are consistently terrible?

    It’s starts with the marketing department of the advertiser. They choose the ad agency based on several parameters, all of which are questionable, the best being the ad agency’s track record I think. As we have alluded to on occasion it appears that Audi’s US marketing is nowhere, so garbage in garbage out, they might pick duds for ad agencies. Funny thing is when the ads don’t work they blame it on the agency then move on to the next dud.

    If I was in marketing I would choose the ad agency based on track record. Demonstrate to me how your work is responsible for sales, not how entertaining they were. Ljflx might have more first-hand knowledge of this because I deal strictly with creative and have the strategies outlined for me without getting involved with the details on that end which are, or should be, pretty research-intensive.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Hybrid technology will be just another dinosaur in 5 years.

    Care to put some money on that? Today's hybrids leave alot to be desired, but sales will improve with technology improvements. And customers might be more willing to live with less trunk space when gas hits $4 or $5 per gallon, which I believe it will in that timeframe.

    Maybe in 1977 you would have said the personal computer would prove to be a dinosaur?

    Anyway, I would be willing to put up anywhere from $5k to $50k (your choice) on a bet that 2011 worldwide hybrid (gas hybrid, diesel-electric hybrid, and hydraulic hybrid) vehicle unit sales will exceed 2006 worldwide hybrid vehicle unit sales. We would deposit the money with a law firm, in escrow.
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