Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





High End Luxury Cars

1533534536538539771

Comments

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Didn't someone say that the GS430 goes away for 07' and will be replaced exclusively by the GS450h?

    If Lexus is targeting the S600 and 760Li in volume, about 1000 each a year, then the LS600h will do the job. Like others have stated I also think it depenends on price. I think they'll price it against the S550, in and around 100K loaded, but nothing close to the S600. That will work for 1-2K units I think, but any pricier and it won't.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Thats the biggest problem with the Jag Portfolio, they have to say "we're as good as they are, don't look at the engine, don't look at the engine". The XJ12 didnt have that problem.

    That may be, but it sure is good looking:

    image

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Simply gorgeous !!! Whatever is the problem with Jaguar, LG ? This car looks so beautiful, so why is it not selling ?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Simply gorgeous !!! Whatever is the problem with Jaguar, LG ? This car looks so beautiful, so why is it not selling ?

    I think because it looks a lot like it did in 1995. Perhaps because people hated the "modern" '90-94 looks, they were scared to be too daring, and they ended up doing basically a nip\tuck to a 9-year-old car.

    Look at the S550 vs. the 500, or the 750i vs the 740i. The German designers said black is white, up is down, we're going to change everything and set the bar for state-of-the-art, both inside and out. Jag went to all the trouble of making a brand new platform, which happens about once a century at Jaguar, and then put a fresh coat of paint on the old body, and sent it out the door. New Jag:

    image

    Old Jag:

    image
  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    "BMW should make the next generation Mini available in hybrid form, it would be perfect for it, IMO"

    "I dont know if they exist in Europe but a diesel Mini sounds real tempting to me."

    Yeah, they exist. May be they will cross the ocean some day.

    Jose
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    There's 5 of us who are buddies here in my town (myself included) and we all have 2007 and 2008 lease renewals and right now first choice of all of us is the LS600H and a $85-90K pricetag won't change that but a $105K pricetag will.

    If the car's trunk space comes in similar to an IS / 3-series / C-Class...which is what I predict...we'll see how many of those 5 buddies' minds get changed, even if the price comes in at the low end of what you posit. For myself, accustomed to SUV-type cargo space (we have been a 2-SUV, zero-sedan family since 2000) I have a serious problem with the trunk space issue.

    I do think the car will sell in numbers greater than any of the V12 Germans, though. Possibly greater than all of them added together.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I do think the car will sell in numbers greater than any of the V12 Germans, though. Possibly greater than all of them added together.

    Yeah I think so too, especially if they price it at 100K or less, when a S600 is 40K more and the 760Li almost 20K more.

    What are the specs for the LS460's trunk space?

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    What are the specs for the LS460's trunk space?

    Haven't seen anything released yet. If the GS is anything to go by, 5 cu ft will be lost with the LS600 vs LS460.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I do think the car will sell in numbers greater than any of the V12 Germans, though. Possibly greater than all of them added together.

    Your assumption being that the hybrid LS will sell at significantly lower prices than V12 German cars.

    It is far too early for us to debate hybrid LS sales results when there are no official hybrid LS sales results to debate about .

    But what is debatable is the potential success of luxury hybrids.

    IMO hybrids and luxury mix as well as oil and water. The reason I say this is because luxury has to be exclusive and rare. A LS seat massager and electronic parking assistance are exclusive features not offered in current Toyota models. In the future these Lexus luxuries will trickle down to more humble Toyota models.

    Hybrid technology trickles in the opposite direction. Hybrid technology trickles first from lower humble models like the Prius and ends up later in expensive models like the hybrid LS.

    Can you imagine what will happen to hybrid LS resale values when a new and significantly improved 100mpg Prius is introduced in two years? The 2009 Prius will make the hybrid LS appear as obsolete as a 386 PC.

    Luxury hybrids will be a disappointment until new hybrid technolologies are first introduced in HELM models.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    First off, the car's initial run will be astonishing, especially in light of it's American and European competition not offering any similar models as of now(albeit don't count out MBZ, a stallwart for surprises).

    However, for the long-term standings, as with any car, it loses steam. And with this being a specialty car, it will lose it even faster. With the Europeans undoubtly focusing on diesel-hybrid technology and with some diesels(ie: Bluetec and TDI) on the market now that offers remarkably better gas mileage and about the same smoothness without the hybrids gripes(ie: trunk space and unknown longevity for exp.-altho pre-'04 Priuses are still running strong) is some indication that the LS has it work cut out for it.

    And it doesn't have nuch of a calling card except for the L on it's nose. Not much in power(430 is not a lot in light of 500/600-hp MB's. Projected fuel economy ratings not impressive. Some technology, altho not breakthrough(I do think is the first AWD sedan hybrid, tho.)

    But it has one trump card that Lexus has played since '89: PRICE. With a projected start around $95k, it shouldn't be a tuff sell at all.......
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The link below indicates that BMW diesels will sell here in about two years!

    I will trade in my BMW 530xi Touring for a 535D any day.I hope a 535D will exist on our shores.

    link title
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    First off, the car's initial run will be astonishing, especially in light of it's American and European competition not offering any similar models as of now

    If that is the case then the GS450H would sell like hotcakes. The GS450H is not exactly a hot seller despite having no competition.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    Do you have sales data to back up this comment?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    And it doesn't have nuch of a calling card except for the L on it's nose. Not much in power(430 is not a lot in light of 500/600-hp MB's. Projected fuel economy ratings not impressive. Some technology, altho not breakthrough(I do think is the first AWD sedan hybrid, tho.)

    Hmmmm..... Let's look at the LS 600hL's calling card"s"... notice the plural... ;)

    1) 8-speed dual-mode CVT (World-first)
    2) 40Gb HD (world-first)
    3) 19-speaker ML
    4) Body-sensing temp control
    5) LED Hi/Lo beams (world-first)
    6) Best V12-like output with highest MPG money can buy
    7) AWD/HSD/LWB (world-first)
    8) Leather-stitched dash

    I guess the above are more than just the "L" on its hood, don't ya think ?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    GS 430/450h Sales 2006 versus 2005
    June Month 420 versus 616 -31.8%

    June YTD 2,144 versus 2,935 -27.0%

    Unfortunately Lexus does not breakdown the sales further. But interestingly look at how the sales have declined even though 05 sales excludes 450h sales.

    Look at the combined sales number of 420 in June . How many of those are hybrids? 100 or 200? Not very impressive IMO.

    Maybe GS hybrid sales are not so high because of supply issues?

    Not very likely! There have been no stories in the media about long waiting lists for the GS hyrbid (unlike all those stories about the waiting lists for the the RX400H during its first months of sales).
  • guestguest Posts: 774
    Can you imagine what will happen to hybrid LS resale values when a new and significantly improved 100mpg Prius is introduced in two years? The 2009 Prius will make the hybrid LS appear as obsolete as a 386 PC.

    The Next Prius will not influence the sales of the Lexus LS600h. I don't even wanna know where you came up with that!

    If anything, it'll just reinforce the future of their hybrid LS, and give them something to look forward to when the technology "trickles up"! Hybrid LS owners might just pick up a new 100-MPG Prius for the 17-year old A-student in the family, no? :blush:

    GS 430/450h Sales
    June Month 420 616 -31.8%

    June YTD 2,144 2,935 -27.0%

    You could do the same breakdown for V8 E-Class/A6/5-series, and get similar numbers, so this is no indictment on the GS430/GS450h.

    Given the size of the LS' customer base, it's virtually unparalled rep, the great pub, I expect 1000 PRE-ORDERS, and up to 3000 sold in it's first 12 months, if it's price is at or below $100k. ;)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    And with that said, still not groundbreaking as the Lexus PR would have it:

    8-Speed dual-mode CVT(It can't be both/ either full auto or CVT)- Not exactly astonishing as Nissan/Infiniti and Audi will be going full CVT/DSG(Audi) on next gen cars.

    40gb HD- big deal- soon to be as common as an MP3 player

    19 speaker ML- Will it finally cure the distortion?- I'll take my renowned B&O with "only" 18 speakers instead.

    Body-sensing temp control- read up on this one- it takes 28 minutes for the system to become fully operative- in this recent 100 degree heatwave, you've been dead by the time it read all of your thousands of pores.

    LED Hi/Lo beams: A great addition to illumination, may have been better if the tuners weren't doing it already.

    Best V12-like output with highest MPG money can buy: This is the biggest whopper yet- The MBZ S550 gets to 60 in 5.1 secs, while the much more powerful and lighter 760i Sport V12 takes 5.5, despite having an extra 4 cylinders. Best V12 performance? In this class, the only V12's that are worth noting in the performance brackets would be both versions of the MB V12(natural and force-fed). Oh and yeah it gets 39% better mileage than the BMW also. And maybe they took a page out of Maserati's marketing script as they promised the Q-P would have the power of a Ferrari V12 with the minimal servicing of a V8. HMM not so as it is slower than the current LS and S to 60.

    AWD/HSD/LWB: As I stated in post, I gave credit for this one

    Leather-stitched dash: You left yourself wide-open on this one. I just had to double back to my garage to see if my W-12 still had it's leather on the door sill, dash, center console, map pockets, A-frame posts, steering wheel, lower dash, ultra suede liner, and everything in between.

    The L? Maybe another attempt of carbon copy maybe, a la not styling this time round...........
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    The GS Hybrid is the car that the Lexus should've left well enough alone. The GS450h is not everything they billed it to be, hence the abrupt stopping of advertising.

    The same thing for the RX. Now the RX350 is more powerful and much closer to it in efficiency, so why by a complicated Hybrid when you could have a regular one for $6800 bucks less that is faster with less weight?
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Posts: 1,150
    You mean people actually fess up that they rent?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The same thing for the RX. Now the RX350 is more powerful and much closer to it in efficiency, so why by a complicated Hybrid when you could have a regular one for $6800 bucks less that is faster with less weight?

    It was definitely strange on Lexus' part to introduce the RX350 while at the same time still offering the 400h with the old 3.3L engine. Honda did the same thing with the Accord, they boosted the horsepower on the standard V6 this year, so its now basically just as fast as the Hybrid version, and like the 400h, there's absolutely no reason to buy the hybrid.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Can you imagine what will happen to hybrid LS resale values when a new and significantly improved 100mpg Prius is introduced in two years?

    My guess is absolutely nothing. 100mpg only saves 1 gallon every 100 miles over 50mpg (the currrent Prius). In a 15k mile year, that's only 150 gallons, or roughly $450, about 1 month's worth of bank interest on $100k. You can save half that money just by writing the purchase check on a bank that resides on the other coast so that it will take up to two weeks to clear that money out of your interest-bearing account.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    In other words, you see nothing (besides the AWD/HSD) in this 600hL that is worthwhile, eh ? Oh well....

    On V12 "performance", there is yet no public info or rumor on how the 600hL will perform, rather, I was refering to the MPG for a V12-like motor in the 600. See, you were quick to talk HP/straightline acceleration... I wasn't saying anything of sorts...

    Your W-12 is certainly a really nice car... The 600hL will be a competitor and should stack up pretty well, don't you think ? Besides, with 430HP (as in the W12), 8-cogs/CVT, AWD, LED, etc... the higher priced W12 may find itself scrambling to match up... As they say, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Another 9 months from now and the 600hL will be here, and we'll see how it stacks up to its competition.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Perhaps a significant portion of would-be buyers are waiting on the 450h? AFAIK dealers are not discounting 450h at all, not even lease subsidies. The same can not be said of the E's or the 5's.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Notice how your Lexus dealer will be leaning against the trunk when he discusses those impressive calling-cards with you.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Given the size of the LS' customer base, it's virtually unparalled rep, the great pub, I expect 1000 PRE-ORDERS, and up to 3000 sold in it's first 12 months, if it's price is at or below $100k.

    Mr. Unknown,

    we will have to wait until we know the hybrid LS price before we can carry on a debate about such sales projections.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    100mpg only saves 1 gallon every 100 miles over 50mpg (the currrent Prius). In a 15k mile year, that's only 150 gallons, or roughly $450, about 1 month's worth of bank interest on $100k. You can save half that money just by writing the purchase check on a bank that resides on the other coast so that it will take up to two weeks to clear that money out of your interest-bearing account.

    I disagree. Maybe it is best that we discuss this in a hybrid forum?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I stress once more that I think the LS600h will be an great addition in it's class. It does have some interesting technology, albeit some of it is very frivilous.

    When you say "performance" and V12 in the same sentence on this board, Merc and I instantly assume you mean acceleration, rev range. But I can honestly see where the input for gas mileage would be deemed necessary, and yes, the projected 20/26(22 combined per Lexus) is quite an acheivement for such a heavy car(predicted to weigh more than 350 pounds more than the current LS, hybrid-600 pound more).But thanks to ingenious engine engineering and the 8 speed tranny, it is able to acheive such lofty numbers.

    And yes, I think my W12 is a fantastic and rare(in the States) car. And for 450hp(not your 430), it is very good on gas(18 combined in 4600 pound car in NY traffic- awesome)

    So to reply to you, yes the forthcoming LS has many proposed strengths. It will definetely take the LS' sales up yet another notch in a attempt to retain Lexus' "best selling premium line" in the US. They must be doing something right.....

    BTW: They are predicted to do a more credible attempt in Europe. We may be talking a different talk 7/07.....
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Toyota/Lexus announced today that they will not join nor block GM/Nissan-Renault proposed partnership deal. This comes a day after the two parties approaced the auto giant about joining the party. This was definetely Toyota's style as it is on a steady pace to de-throne GM as the leader.

    This is by far and away the smartest thing Toyota has done since killing the Echo.

    Ford, once a real threat to the world auto market, posted a 123mil. loss for the 2nd quarter. The company says it is due to the lack of demand for it's redesigned SUV's(ie: Explorer and Mountaineer), fledgling demand for the Escape Hybrid, cooling demand for the Mustang(sooooo many anticipating the Camaro return), a cooled demand for it's underwhelming Lincoln/Mercury brand, despite some new and redesigned fresh models. And reverting to all FWD models won't help as the Americans have warmed back up to the idea of RWD/AWD and wagons(nobody believes the FWD traction is better story any longer). And with the F-Series sales starting to slide: Detroit, we have a PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!

    And DRUM ROLL PLEASE!!!!!!!!.......... Fiat wants to return to the States by '08 M/Y. Geeeeee, thanx GM for the down payment on shipping from Italy(2 bill goes a long way).
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I didn't expect Toyota would really get involved. They've had very limited relationships with GM in the past, but they've never had desire to expand on those. Toyota will be busy enough working towards the #1 spot, and figuring out what to do with Subaru.

    Ford definitely has troubles. GM seems like they are starting to figure out how to manage Pontiac\Buick\Saturn, but Ford is still completely clueless about Mercury and Lincoln, and they seem to think that badge engineering is still viable in the 21st century automarket. Think again.

    I also think that Chrysler, the perennial boom\bust automaker, is headed for another bust. The twinkle on the 300 is fading, and what else do they have? Chrysler has been avoiding reality by shoving cars down dealer's throats, and is now stuck trying to get rid of them with massive discounts. Not good. I also predict that the Chrysler Aspen will be a flop, just like the Commander. The Explorer\Trailblazer\Durango market is going to shrivel and die soon, and only GM seems to be aware of it.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Actually if you grind through the math, you'd notice that the purchase in question is LS600HL at $100k, not Prius at $20k. $450 a year may make a difference for buyers of $20k cars, but not $100k cars. Monthly interest on $20k is less than $100; monthly interest on $100k is about $450; yes, dear, $100k cash generates $5000+ in FDIC insured interest in a year! About the most conservative(and low yield) way of parking money there is. Incremental fuel savings becomes an exercise in diminishing return much quicker for someone spending $100k on a car.
Sign In or Register to comment.