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High End Luxury Cars

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  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "Can you imagine what will happen to hybrid LS resale values when a new and significantly improved 100mpg Prius is introduced in two years? The 2009 Prius will make the hybrid LS appear as obsolete as a 386 PC"

    This is one of the funniest comments I've ever read. So let's see if I've got this right - Toyota is going to make it's most premium car obsolete with a car that costs 30% or less of its price and one that's in a class about a dozen stories lower. It won't be doing anything to improve the LS600HL with that same technology - no, all their development is Prius bound in order to exterminate the LS600HL. No sharing of technology, no improvement, none of that normal stuff that makes Toyota the machine it is. That's not going to happen here. The 600HL is only being created to standstill and be overcome by a much cheaper sibling. It must have been a naughty boy to get such punishment from it's parent.

    Dewey - please wake up and smell the roses and while you're at it tell us what's going to happen to the LS600HL from it's internal intercompany competition.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Can you imagine what will happen to hybrid LS resale values when a new and significantly improved 100mpg Prius is introduced in two years? The 2009 Prius will make the hybrid LS appear as obsolete as a 386 PC.

    So, by your logic, when DaimlerChrysler brings high-MPG Smart cars to the USA, will Bluetec diesel MBs appear as obsolete as a 386 PC? Or maybe a 286?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    "The Explorer/Trailblazer/Durango market is going to shrivel and die soon , and only GM seems to be aware of it."

    Finally, GM has stopped lining there pockets with unnecessary amounts of profit and put the money back into the company. The pending Buick Enclave and other GM crossovers are unbelieveably, well, GM. First off, the Enclave will actually one-up the RX, as the laughable Rendezvous was only capable of selling to strickly blue hairs w/o RX budget. The GMC and Saturn versions are just as good. And Gm has vowed to install it's 3.6L high-feature 280hp V6 standard, no need for V8. Pontiac is going all RWD, even the G6 replacement will be so equipped. No need for a Sunfire-type car with Solstice selling as fast as they can make them(at last check, it was outselling Mini, Tiburon, TC, and MX-5 2-1 each, respectively).

    And Cadillac. Finally America's luxury car will come full-circle. The long-awaited DTS replacement will be RWD and will finally compete with the foreign makes legitmately. And the new CTS with a new 3.6L with VVT on intake/exhaust and 300hp(and the 400hp CTS-v and 505hp CTS-SuperV(with the Vette Z06's LS7) is sure to relight it's extinguishing flame with the onslaught of new comp such as 330i, '07 G35, '07 A4, and reworked TL.

    Ford on the other hand, well: The Crossovers that they are hoping to compete with the GM triplets are not going to cut the cake. Even with the new Duratec pushing 250-hp, judging from the previews that have been shown, nothing impressive, especially with the Lincoln and Ford versions being styled by the same one-eyed, hump-backed pencil scripter who designed the shroon Rendezvous. The Mazda version however, very interesting, especially being equipped with the MAZDASPEED 6 turbo 4. Killing the super-old but super-dependable Crown/Marq/TC with no replacement is an automatic death sentence with the few faithful that are left. They'll definetely be shopping Caddy and Lexus harder now as the upcoming MKZ is not going to cut it, even being on the superb Volvo S80 chassis.

    Chrysler, you're right, the sizzle is fading with LX's. Thankfully Chrysler has sensed this and will roll out the LY cars in '09 M/Y, featuring MB's great Airmatic suspension and for the first time(not counting the 3.2L in the Crossfire), MB engines. The top 300 is said to get the 5.5L in the E550, with the 4.5L as an option. Until then, the 300 and Magnum are due for facelift late '07 early '08, altho the cars are still selling vey briskly. Then Chrysler has joined the flex-fuel crowd on it's 4.7L V8 engines. The HEMI's MDS system must really work as the orders for 5.7L trucks, SUV's and cars surged 67% YTD, especially the Ram pickup and Jeep vehicles. GOOD NEWS: The Crossfire is said to be replaced with the awesome FIREPOWER! concept of a couple years ago. Hopefully so.

    You see the domestics are on a roll, well sort of with the exception of Ford............
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Who made post #17048?

    M
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Posts: 767
    How many of those are hybrids? 100 or 200? Not very impressive IMO.

    The annual projected sales of the GS450 is 2000 units (or the max number Lexus could bring to NA), so 100-200 a month is probably right on target.
    IMO this car is more of a niche vehicle than the RX400h, so the demand is not as huge as the latter.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    1) This is one of the funniest comments I've ever read

    Facts can be funnier than fiction in terms of hybrid technology, especially in the case of the 07/08 LS600HL.

    Based on expectations the upcoming Prius will be radically different from the current one. So radically changed that a nickel carbide battery powered non-plugin hybrid 07/08 LS will look like a joke in comparison to a lithhium ion battery powered plug-in 09 Prius.

    2) It won't be doing anything to improve the LS600HL with that same technology

    Yes the 09 hybrid LS will likely be improved. But the 07/08 LS hybrid will end up looking as relevant as a Dodo bird (at least a good looking bird with Bangle curves and edges).

    The technological showcase car for Toyota is not any Lexus. It is a humble Prius. Is it mere coincidence that the new LS electronic parking feature has already been offered in the Prius for three years now (at least in Japan)? I dont think so!

    Is it mere coincidence that many wealthy technology geeks choose to buy a Prius? I dont think so!

    3)please wake up and smell the roses and while you're at it tell us what's going to happen to the LS600HL from it's internal intercompany competition.

    The scent of the roses here are quite poignant where I am sitting. No and I repeat no again the Prius does not compete with any Lexus (hybrid or non-hyrbid). But a radically new hybrid Prius or a Honda may have a averse affect on resale values of older hybrids (especially luxury hyrbids)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    So, by your logic, when DaimlerChrysler brings high-MPG Smart cars to the USA, will Bluetec diesel MBs appear as obsolete as a 386 PC? Or maybe a 286?

    Nope!

    That does not apply to Blutec diesels . Diesel technologies have gradually evolved for over a hundred years . THis is not the case with hybrid technology! Hybrid technology is a disruptive technology that involves high obsolesence as time moves on.

    Blutec Smart Cars will not be sold for many years before a Blutec S Class Benz will be introduced. While the hybrid LS is based on the technology of a Prius three years ago.

    Big difference IMO.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Dewey - only in your imaginary world will a 430-450HP car that gets 26 miles to a gallon and is loaded with luxury, plays to an entirely different demo group and has the latest technology, some of it all to itself, be outdated by it's smaller and much more insignificant economy box cousin that has absolutely nothing in common with it. What you have here is nothing different than what we've had for 35+ years since energy prices started rising - lux cars play to power and econoboxes play to mileage. Guess what - 35 years from now it will be the same credo and engine improvements will continually occur. You're so far off base here that any conversations about it are futile so I'll exit this ridiculous banter right now.
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    The W-12 has 450 bhp for clarification. I think that is what you meant. The S8 also has 450 bhp with V10. The S6 has 435 bhp with V10.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    You're so far off base here that any conversations about it are futile so I'll exit this ridiculous banter right now.

    Well said... Comparing an econobox Prius to an LS is as ridiculous as it gets... Hey, my 25mpg Matrix gets better mileage than my 18mpg LS400, so my LS must be obsolete...

    Moving on... Will the 460L be compared to the S550 or will it be the 600hL ? Price-wise, maybe the latter, class-wise the former. Boy, am I looking forward to a head-to-head comparo of the S550 v LS460L, or what ?

    I'd love to see Merc1's face.. ehr... words... when the LS bests the new S. Hah !!! I hope Lexus brings the sport pack for the new LS series and puts these against the new S. All this talk of performance and handling would disappear, I suppose. Who knows, maybe BlkHemi would consider a loaded 460L at a bargain than the new S. Or maybe he'd just buy the GT over the SL... :)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    "Who knows, maybe Blkhemi would consider a loaded 460L at a bargain than the new S. Or maybe he'd just buy the GT over the SL..."

    And my friend, that why it's best to never say never. With a company as grand as Toyota backing whatever move you want to make, Lexus has the opportunity to deliver the total package...
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    OAC - how'd you like to set up a concession stand and make a business for the group of people (I'm guessing the count will be zero, maybe one person if I really stretch my imagination) that will exit the 2008 LS600HL line and enter the 2009 Prius line. Just don't expect any bank to loan you the money to start a business where no one will line up.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    If you don't know me by now.....

    I just couldn't light up and tag at the same time.

    Sorry.

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    That would be a pretty cool business to start up!

    Make a bunch of black (or white) t-shirts, and they would say things like:

    "Ask me about the Next LS!" or

    "Got Hybrid?" or

    "Can your luxury car do this?" or

    "I got your 60MPG right here!"

    Triple-stamped it, no backsies!! :P

    DrFill
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    LOL you just said you wanted to exit from such banter and you continue with the same banter on you next post:

    1)how'd you like to set up a concession stand and make a business for the group of people (I'm guessing the count will be zero, maybe one person if I really stretch my imagination) that will exit the 2008 LS600HL line and enter the 2009 Prius line. Just don't expect any bank to loan you the money to start a business where no one will line up

    Are you trying to imply that I stated 08 hybrid LS owners will trade in their cars for a 09 Prius? If that is the case then it appears you have misunderstood my posts.

    And whether you do understand my posts or not is of no real importance to me. :P
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Haha !! And how's that Brooklyn Bridge or the "Bridge to Nowhere in Alaska" doing these days ? Wanna sell one to the highest bidder ??? :):)

    Seriously tho', are you still in line for the 460L or are you going for the 600hL ? I don't suppose anyone buying a 600hL is gonna worry about the trunk space. Who needs a trunk when you own a $100K car ? If you need to ferry goods and people, buy a minivan or SUV. When you need to ride in comfort, serenity and plushness, buy an S, LS, Audi, Jag, etc... That's the way I see it...
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I'd love to see Merc1's face.. ehr... words... when the LS bests the new S. Hah !!! I hope Lexus brings the sport pack for the new LS series and puts these against the new S. All this talk of performance and handling would disappear, I suppose. Who knows, maybe BlkHemi would consider a loaded 460L at a bargain than the new S. Or maybe he'd just buy the GT over the SL...

    We'll see what happens. I can see the LS460L taking some comparos due to its huge projected price advantage, but the mags aren't going to compare the LS600h to the S600 due to the fear of the Lexus getting its lugnuts handed to it.

    M
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Based on expectations the upcoming Prius will be radically different from the current one. So radically changed that a nickel carbide battery powered non-plugin hybrid 07/08 LS will look like a joke in comparison to a lithhium ion battery powered plug-in 09 Prius.

    Yes the 09 hybrid LS will likely be improved. But the 07/08 LS hybrid will end up looking as relevant as a Dodo bird

    The technological showcase car for Toyota is not any Lexus. It is a humble Prius.


    I don’t see what’s so hard to grasp. With regard to hybrid, you can’t separate Toyota products completely. Hybrid tech is a common element. In no way did Dewey suggest people will be bailing on an LS for a Prius.

    No and I repeat no again the Prius does not compete with any Lexus…

    What also is misunderstood here is the significance of Prius to high-end hybrid cars. People with environmental consciousness and social responsibility see irony and hypocrisy in buying anything other than that which offers the absolute best in terms of environmental friendliness. Global warming issues are snowballing. Prius is on the leading edge of that action, not high-end cars.

    As such, Prius has a lot more significance than just another “econobox”. If people see Lexus products trailing that leading edge because the tech isn’t current, then said products become Syquest cartridges.

    It is easier and more efficient for Toyota to throw its efforts into Prius and have Lexus ride the coattails of the technology. But this timing could have a negative effect on the high end products. For one thing, batteries that are more powerful and less massive render everything that preceded it obsolete.

    You know how they say no athlete is bigger than the game? Well, at this early stage in the hybrid epoch, no car is bigger than the technology.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    This forum and others like it are getting buried deeper into hierarchies with the new site format. You have to take circuitous routes to get here and it seems almost impossible for new posters to arrive at this place. Is this by design?
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    How do you get here? The easiest thing to do add it to your Tracked Items and then come here using those links.

    About new posters, anyone looking for discussions about any of the vehicles named in the header will have this one as a choice.

    Maybe this is a good time to revisit what vehicle are listed there? We can add two to the existing list, or add and subtract if we have a consensus on change.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Let's just say I completely disagree with you. A Lexus buyer has no interest in a Prius. The Prius attracted many higher end buyers at the beginning because it was the only noteworthy hybrid to the green crowd. So the Google guys and many others were attracted to it. But now that the highend segment is getting into the act they will quickly vacate the Prius and go to the power and lux hybrid segment. If your beliefs are right, that the Prius is important to the high end segment, then it is not only the LS that it will hurt but many other power lux cars as well. I can't even begin to see that happening. The lux hybrids will give you that power with a clear conscience and lux buyers want the features, comfort and roominess of a high end sedan not an economy car. Different segment, different buyer, different priorities. The Prius bridged them temporarily because of its uniqueness. That temporary period is ending.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Let's get this conversation back the high end vehicles and take further across-the-spectrum hybrid debates to the Hybrid Vehicles board.

    Please and thank you. :-)
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    At this price point, this one qualifies for our topic. Whatcha think? Tesla Roadster: Lotus Helps Create Sporty 135 MPG Electric Car

    An Electric Car With Juice: Silicon Valley Firm Bets Its Chips on the Speedy Tesla Roadster (washingtonpost.com - free registration required)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The conversation about this has been interesting over the last few days.

    Now we're to believe that the Lexus buyer has nothing to do with a mere Toyota anymore, even though the Toyota product started the whole hybrid craze. Sounds like wishful thinking on the part of a Lexus fan with furthing Lexus branding on their minds, not the reality of how all this got started.

    Isn't there a LS430 owner on here that has a Prius also? Could have sworn there was.

    One minute Toyota (not Lexus) is set to take over the world with Hybrids, with the Prius leading the charge, but now they're not. So I guess it is Lexus' turn to do the same with limited production hybrids that so far (GS450h) have proven to be nothing more than an afterthought. Something is amiss here.

    I don't see how anyone could think that a Lexus buyer doesn't have any ties or interest whatsoever in Toyota on the subject of hybrids when hybrid technology trickled up from Toyota to Lexus products. You don't think that a Lexus buyer knows that Toyota is the reason for Lexus having hybrids in the first place?

    That said I don't think that the LS600h will flop because of a Prius, but once the 09's Prius does come out (and if it really does have all this Buck Rogers technology) the Lexus will seem a little less relevant to some. I think that is what Dewey is trying to say, mildly.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Pat: I do agree with Designman as its been a circuitous route for me as well. Even more strange is that when I click on "Read New Posts" on the HELM board, it takes me to the LS Futures Board. Huh ! Something is amiss with the new system, and I'd hope someone upstairs is reading this and helping posters make the forum more user-friendly to everyone.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I can see the LS460L taking some comparos due to its huge projected price advantage,..

    You can say that again... According to this post on the LS 460 board, its reality.

    vantage2, "2007 Lexus LS" #2201, 22 Jul 2006 12:23 pm

    Imagine an LS460 with all those new style and features starting in the E500/550i range ???? That'd put a HUGE dent in the S-class sales, don't ya think ?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Imagine an LS460 with all those new style and features starting in the E500/550i range ???? That'd put a HUGE dent in the S-class sales, don't ya think ?

    Of course the LS will cause some sales to be lost from MB and all the other players in the segment, but a huge dent, not! The current LS always started in E-Class territory and it didn't make a huge dent in S-Class sales either. Price like anything else is but one component here and when you add "all those features" the LS460 won't be in E/5 territory. Seems like to me you're still on that sky is falling/end of MB nonsense. Now I wonder if the point about price making some difference in sales will be realized when a SWB LS460 will start in E-Class/5-Series land while the S-Class as it stands right now goes out the door for about 90K.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Dent in S-class sales is NOT the same as "sky is falling/end of MB" as YOU stated it, cos nowhere in my post would you find such silly assertion. And starting in E/5 territory for a new style, with Yes, "all those features" would make the new LS series a much vaunted challenger to anything from Germany in its class. You may say "same ol' same ol" with pricing, but this is a new S vs a new LS - the battle royale, so to speak. And if and when the LS beats the new S, I can hear it already... it's all about the cheaper LS !
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    No one said anything about Lexus being isolated from Toyota. The point is that the LS is isolated from the Prius. It's also isolated from the Corolla. I can't believe people are making that type of connection. The Prius is owned by someone who owns an LS - as a second car not as a replacement car. Come on people let's get serious here. If a person buys a C-class as a second car does the C suddenly becomes a threat to that person buying as S in the future??
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    First Ting: Why would ANYONE price a new Lexus, or any launched car, $60,596?

    And my #2: I'd park it right under the 750i, at around $67k, for openers!

    Then, if you wanted a test drive, I'd make you ask extra nice, with sugar on top! :blush:

    DrFill
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