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High End Luxury Cars

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  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    "That'd put a HUGE dent in the S-class sales, don't ya think?"

    A sizeble scratch, yes, but a dent?? I think that intially the LS will steal some sales from the S, but then when MB introduce to our shores the S450, there will be some variance and some of the losses are due to return.

    This has been said every since the '92 S. Lexus sales slid with big and bold S. But with the '95 redo, they returned, once again in '98 with the refresh. But when MB dropped the stunning '00 in '99, that stole the show for everyone. '01 brought some good comp for MB, especially since by that time, the W220's quality probs were evident. But the '01 didn't have the fire that the '95 and '98 had, interesting enough. And the '07 S550 has actually sold more of a percentage than the '01 LS, and is still climbing strong, with June being the strongest month behind Feb.

    But the '07 is sure to have a superior effect on the S. The redesign has been long awaited. And the LS faithful will not be dissappointed, according to Lexus. The build quality is said to best the outgoing model 10 times over...
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    The current LS opens at $56k, so you'd give a $10k price hike just because? Wouldn't that eliminate the value status for Lexus? I can honestly see the SWB going for 58-60k , with a fully opted SWB stopping at 70k, the LWB at your 67k, with a 80-85k break point.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You've lost the plot Oac. You can call it whatever you like a battle royal or whatever, but when you guys start touting how well the LS460 is selling and that it outsells the S-Class, you'll need to include that 25-30K price advantage somewhere in the rhetoric. That is all I'm saying.

    You can't have it both ways, one minute say the LS is priced like a E-Class or 5-Series then the next the battle is with the S-Class, lets try to get it together.

    No one is doubting that the LS is a real challenger to anything (well nearly anything) from Germany, heck even I'm impressed with the car's technical specification, if not the looks.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You're missing the point/connection here, which is hybrids. Of course a C-Class has nothing to do with an S-Class buyer's habbits. There is no connection between that scenario and the Prius and the LS600h. No one is saying (or at least I'm not) that the LS600h buyer is going to drop down to a Prius as a replacement for a 100K Lexus, we all know that. The point that Dewey and Designman are trying to make is that the hybrid tech in the 2009 Prius might just make the LS600h look a little outdated to greenies who live for this type of product. IMO, it is all about perception which is a big part of hybrid's appeal since they don't appear to be the heaven sent answer to better fuel economy as some predicted. Anyone spending potentially 100K on a super-hybrid isn't going to want to find out that a Prius makes it obsolete tech wise, that is all I think they're trying to say here.

    Think of it this way regarding Mercedes, do you think S-Class buyers would feel cheated if the all-new 2008 C-Class debuted MB's hybrid tech instead of the S-Class? Of course they would and most people would be scratching their heads as to why MB would choose their least expensive car to show its most advanced tehnology. Same thing with the Prius vs. the LS600h, if and only if the next Prius does meet all those lofty engineering goals.

    Who knows what will happen in such a scenario between the next Prius and the LS600h, of course the LS600h buyer can likely just end the rigamarole and buy both! I for one don't think it will matter sales wise because the two cars are so far apart in the market, but the mental like is there because of Toyota wearing hybrids on their sleeve.

    M
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    That car is cool. I want one. At twice the efficiency of the most efficient hybrid, this could be one of the cars that the privileged greenies hitchhike onto... equivalent to 125 mpg. And they claim a 0-60 of 4.0. Whe-ew! Downside is it handcuffs long-range travel plans, needing a 3.5 hour charge after 250 miles. But come to think of it, I’ve never taken my roadster on a long-range trip and neither have many others.

    They also have intentions of making a sedan. Who knows, with backing by the Google founders, Lotus handling and warm acceptance, we could see a new star in the mix—pure electric performance. I hope it’s easy to get at least a test drive out of this baby.

    I’d like to know what they know and Toyota doesn’t. This is all about batteries which are outsourced. Could it be that battery tech has made big strides in such a short time and that Toyota’s hybrid manufacturing and marketing inertia precludes them from committing to pure electric?

    Interesting stuff.

    Check out the Tesla site which is nice 'n clean and pretty cool itself:
    http://www.teslamotors.com/
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Lets overlook the obvious reasons. :confuse:

    1. The HUGE spike in power.

    2. The HUGE upgrade in looks, rivaling, if not exceeding, the vaunted S-Class.

    3. The HUGE increase in speed, appeal and efficiency brought on by an 8-speed tranny

    I just think it's time to "Move Forward". Playing the background to cars it is as good, or in most cases, better than, hurts the car's, and the marque's, prestige.

    You hear Merc throw the lower price up in EVERY, not some, but EVERY post of his!

    Lexus has hedged it's bet long enough.

    I have stood next to both cars, at the same time.

    I see no reason to "Check" at this table. I'd raise, on more than just power, features, size, and looks.

    Correct price strategy:

    $67-83k: LS460 SWB

    $72-88k: LS460 LWB (Where S550 starts)

    $92-99k: LS600h (Limited Availability - 2000 Units for 2008)

    Lexus will win either way it goes. But you can't be prestigious and underpriced at the same time. If you think you are the best, act as if. That's my motto.

    I can't exactly find many errors in Lexus' market strategy. Just conservative, for my tastes. And I have an issue if they intend to build on 300k units of volume a year. I think it's at 328k for 2005. Need to bring that down. The amount of volume only proves that demand exceeds supply/price!

    DrFill
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    The point that Dewey and Designman are trying to make is that the hybrid tech in the 2009 Prius might just make the LS600h look a little outdated to greenies who live for this type of product...

    And the point Len is making is that 600hL buyers don't give a hoot what the Prius is/does/does not... The Prius was novel 4 years ago, now its mainstream... the 600hL is something else... And I buy that argument as well. Heck, why should a '08 600hL owner worry that an '09 Prius gets 100mpg ? Is the 600hL all about MPG ? Geez ! Get a new argument and stop beating a non-starter. About the only thing remotely similar b/w a Prius and a 600hL is that they both have an electric motor, and there the comparison ends... Oh, both have 4 doors, 4 wheels and a body-on-frame design...

    Next...
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    You can't have it both ways, one minute say the LS is priced like a E-Class or 5-Series then the next the battle is with the S-Class, lets try to get it together.

    And once again we have to remind you Merc1, that PRICE is but one factor ! Need we list you the features this new LS series will come with ? Not really cos you know them so well too... But more importantly, the LOWER price of the LS is bcos of efficiency of production, the HIGHER price of the S is bcos of the inefficiency of its production system. Give or take... if MB could make their S with the TPS efficiency, they'd price it right as well. Bottom line is the S is overpriced for what you get, unless you are simply buying the 3-pointed star on the hood. What's that worth today ? $20 - 30K premium over the LS ???? Guess we'll see how the S sales hold up when the new LS gets here... even with the S450 in tow and the Bluetec diesel models not that far behind...

    The days of a single LS battling a myriad of S-class models is almost over. The LS series will have more variants and SWB/LWB trims to compete against its German peers. And if you can get all of what the LS series delivers at rock bottom prices, why won't it continue its class-leading sales domination over its peers ?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Oh, both have 4 doors, 4 wheels and a body-on-frame design...

    Actually no. The only body-on-frame cars left that I'm aware of are the Crown Vic\Grand Marquis dinosaurs.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    You know how they say no athlete is bigger than the game? Well, at this early stage in the hybrid epoch, no car is bigger than the technology.

    Designman,

    who would think that two BMW fans and evan a Mercedes fan would defend one of the blandest driving Toyotas on the roads today? ;)

    The Tesla roadster? Impressive indeed. But as mentioned in that Washington Post article :

    Why not just buy a Lotus Elise and use some of the $40,000+ you save to buy some gas?"

    And 10k more if you dont live in a select few States. Ouch!!

    Oh yes it's not all about saving gas. But if that is the case then why not just buy an Elise and donate the rest of the $40K savings to an environmentalist cause.

    I guess there will be quite a few who will buy the Tesla because it is a one of a kind sports car like no other. I cant argue with that since that is the main reason why many people buy sports cars in the first place.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Lexus has hedged it's bet long enough.

    I have stood next to both cars, at the same time.

    I see no reason to "Check" at this table. I'd raise, on more than just power, features, size, and looks.


    119+ yrs of brand v 17 yrs of brand... that's why ! Slow and steady wins the race.. The LS price will creep up, and with the different models, you'll finally see an LS sedan priced in the mid-80K and up. That is a far-cry from the past 17 years of $72K top ceiling for the UL.

    You cannot fault Toyota/Lexus strategy. It is the stuff of legends, so gotta wait and watch as the strategy unfolds... Its scary if you stop to think of it.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "And the point Len is making is that 600hL buyers don't give a hoot what the Prius is/does/does not..."

    Exactly. As well, the 600HL car will be heavily leased so the risk will be on Lexus anyway which is still another reason why any Lexus buyer of the car, on top of the obvious reasons, will not give a hoot. Then on the next go round he'll take the updated battery and get 500HP with 35-40mpg at the same price as the original purchase. If you use the argument noted here than there'd be no such thing as an early adopter of technology. What the early adopter here will look at is a high HP car that is green and is loaded with phenomenal luxury and techmology vs it's real competition - a gas car that gets a gas guzzler tax and costs more - a lot more in some cases - and retains less value on resale.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    "Isn't there a LS430 owner on here that has a Prius also? Could have sworn there was."

    Certainly isn't me, Merc... I am not a hybrid fan yet.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Certainly isn't me, Merc... I am not a hybrid fan yet.

    Same here. Although I have to say I found the Edmunds Camry Hybrid review interesting. Unlike the utterly pointless HAH, it actually works.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Personally, I am ambivalent about the hybrid tech itself. I'd like higher MPG, but at what cost ? Maybe when HSD becomes mainstream as fossil-fuel based cars, then I'd go for one. My wife seriously considered a Prius during the first waves of higher gas prices, but now we simply have gotten used to paying more for gas...
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Isn't there a LS430 owner on here that has a Prius also?

    I think that was michael_mattox. Haven't seen him here for a while.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I too am not completely sold on hybrids, but I do applaud the engineering advances that it has taken in the last decade. I am one with the diesel crowd as this has been tried and true for over 100 years(thanks Rudy). And with the forthcoming diesel-hybrid coming in the not to distant future, the gas-electric cars will have to have some other reasoning for existance. Long gone is the argument that gas cars are more refined than diesels. This has been abolished with the onslaught of new-gen diesels(both consumer and commercial).

    Take for instance MB's Bluetec. The engine is 4 db quieter than the outgoing 5.0L V-8, and at last check, that engine was resolute at 55 db at idle, 61 at a 70 mph cruise. Diesel is here to stay if it's going this rate. I can't wait for BMW's answer with the diesel-hybrid and Audi's V-12 diesel for the forthcoming A8.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    VW and Chrysler-Jeep haven't exactly set the world on fire with their diesels. Not exactly feeling the buzz on the E-Class diesel, either. :sick:

    I don't think Toyota is shaking in their boots over a diesel hitting the US market.

    Toyota seems to be the only one who can make hybrid/diesel palatable to Americans. And I'm not one to bet against them.

    DrFill
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    And I wonder why that is, drfill... Is it the price of diesel isn't attractive right now and people don't understand the mileage dynamic, or are they lousy performers when you drive 'em? Why don't diesels sell here?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I can't believe it. I have to somewhat agree with the good doc.

    Yes, if the hybrid king was to offer a diesel hybrid, then they'd prbably sell as quickly as they can make them. But:

    Diesel is what the Europeans do best. The E320 CDI has not nor was it intended to be a sales king. Notice MB does not do a whole lot of advertising for it. And that is sure to change once the Bluetec comes on full line.

    The same for the Jeep vehicles. What other trucks in it's price range/size class offers a diesel of any price? None. The next closest thing would be the VW Touareg, at 50k. And this is why DCX is sure to cash in on the high-gas-pubic with a diesel that is just as refined(if not better) as a gas engine yet returns over 30 mpg, in an SUV? And these are verified facts, unlike the Prius' and Civic' "normal average" debacle....
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I'm right!

    Leave it to you to hedge a bet on the right answer. :P

    Diesels just have a bad rep, from decades ago, for being slow, noisy, smelly, expensive to maintain, and having poor drivability.

    You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

    DrFill
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    "You never get a second chance to make a first impression."

    That is true, however:

    You do get a chance to be reintroduced and reinvigorated, hence the recent surge of diesel sales in pick-up trucks to customers who actually don't need diesel power. And this is why DCX is the commercial leader: DIESEL POWER!
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Since I'm not rollin' into a Chrysler dealer to buy a Commercial diesel. Retail consumers couldn't care less about commercial diesel sales.

    DrFill
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,285
    that no one here has commented on the big news that was revealed on the 2007 LS board the past couple days. Someone found out the starting price for the LS460. It will be at about $60,500. The information seems very legitimate. If this is the case (there is no reason to doubt it), then it gives us huge clues on the pricing structure of the LS460 LWB and also for the LS600h. Based on this, I cannot imagine that the cost of the LS600h will be much more than the low 90's K.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    and voiced my displeasure at the LS board earlier.

    $60,596? Pretty strange price for a world-beater! :mad:

    BTW, Lexus has confirmed, via e-mail, the 2007 GS350 will sport 303HP.

    DrFill
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    The usuals around here are still shell-shocked about the news... Give them a few more months to digest this info. Besides, its not like the Germancarfans do not have enough Lexophiles to worry about :)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    And the point Len is making is that 600hL buyers don't give a hoot what the Prius is/does/does not... The Prius was novel 4 years ago, now its mainstream... the 600hL is something else... And I buy that argument as well. Heck, why should a '08 600hL owner worry that an '09 Prius gets 100mpg ? Is the 600hL all about MPG ? Geez ! About the only thing remotely similar b/w a Prius and a 600hL is that they both have an electric motor, and there the comparison ends... Oh, both have 4 doors, 4 wheels and a body-on-frame design...

    Only to one who one minute will try to seperate Lexus from Toyota, but yet in the next sentence tell you how might Lexus is because of Toyota. You obviously don't seem to understand what a greenie buyer is. The type of person that gets excited about hybrids is likely to take notice, that is all anyone is saying here.

    In the beginning of all the hybrid ranting the Prius was such the car that celebs were buying it and now that will shift to the LS600HL, but none of this same group will notice it if the (and a very big if) the next gen Prius makes the tech in the LS600h look outdated? You guys seem to trip over (or can't remember) what was said from one minute to the next, it is hilarious.

    One minute Lexus has the almighty power of Toyota behind it and Toyota's image on Hybrids and yet now we're to believe that the LS600hl buyer is completely of another realm and wouldn't know or much less care about the Toyota hybrid that started it all, yet all these celebs bought Prius and the LS600hL (according to some Lexus fans) is a "celeb" car also. Makes sense.

    Get a new argument and stop beating a non-starter.

    I've been suggesting you do hat for years when it comes to same old nonsense about Lexus and complete and utter lack of understanding about anything beyond Lexus. Heck the same thing could be said about Lexus too regarding that 8-speed CVT that doesn't exist.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    And once again we have to remind you Merc1, that PRICE is but one factor ! Need we list you the features this new LS series will come with ? Not really cos you know them so well too... But more importantly, the LOWER price of the LS is bcos of efficiency of production, the HIGHER price of the S is bcos of the inefficiency of its production system. Give or take... if MB could make their S with the TPS efficiency, they'd price it right as well. Bottom line is the S is overpriced for what you get, unless you are simply buying the 3-pointed star on the hood.

    So this does prove that you do understand the concept of "price" but only when it comes to certain topics. Again talk about a non-starter, all this about why the S is priced higher is NOT IN DISPUTE. How many times does one have to say that for it sink in? Everyone knows that Toyota has a lock on lower cost production and that they're able to price Lexus vehicles lower because of it.

    Bottom line is that you think the S-Class is only bought for the star that the star is all you're getting over a Lexus you obviously don't know anyting about the car.

    And if you can get all of what the LS series delivers at rock bottom prices, why won't it continue its class-leading sales domination over its peers ?

    If you read your own statement you'll see part of the answer: "rock bottom prices". That has something to do with it you think?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The usuals around here are still shell-shocked about the news... Give them a few more months to digest this info.

    What in the world is there to be shell-shocked about? We all knew the LS460 would cheap out in price next to the European competition, it is Lexus' MO.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Nobody confuses MB CDI with a ride on the city bus even if both use diesel . . . Few will confuse hybrid for fuel saving vs. hybrid tuned towards performance. We already have a common engine technology that can be tuned towards either: Variable Valve timing. Honda first ues it for fuel saving, and for years the Civic HX had variable valve timing just for that. Once it was popularized for performance, somehow nobody associated VVT, VVT-i and Valvtronic with fuel-sipping specialized Civics ;-)
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