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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I love the double-speak gloss-over in that post. How can the Prius and LS600hL both be "celeb" cars (in your words)and appeal so greatly to greenies who like Hybrid tech and one not take notice of the other? Now they're completely seperate yet some of those same rich folks who bought Priuses are going to now buy LS600s? You do realize that a lot of appeal behind hybrids is the "feel good" factor? Some of it has to be that because not all of them deliver the goods when it comes to better MPG.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    BTW, Lexus has confirmed, via e-mail, the 2007 GS350 will sport 303HP.

    Kind renders the GS430 pointless. If there is no GS460 for 2007 and Lexus thinks the GS450h is going to hold down the V8 fort they're sadly mistaken.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Kind renders the GS430 pointless. If there is no GS460 for 2007 and Lexus thinks the GS450h is going to hold down the V8 fort they're sadly mistaken.

    Yeah, I made that point quite awhile back. Assuming overall GS sales don't nosedive, they can sell roughly 6,000 V8s a year, and they simply don't have the build capacity to make that many GS450hs to step in for a retiring 430. I'm not sure what their plans are at this point.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I can't see them just giving up those sales either so there must be a GS460 in the cards for a late year debut, after the press hoopla over the LS460 subsides.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Now you are jumping on the bandwagon of Prius and 600hL bashing, eh ? Find nothing else to hate about Lexus, except compare the top of the line LS to the bottom of the pack Toyota ? A $25K car to a projected $100K car ? That must be another low... Does it occur to you who the clientele for Prius and those for an LS 600hL is ? So someone looking to buy a high-end performance and luxury sedan north of $90K (projected price) will compare the MPG of a Prius to an LS600hL ? How ridiculous is that ???? Since when are $90K cars about MPG ? I don't see an S550 ad which touts its 22MPG, or does it ?

    I will repeat it again, no one gives a hoot what the Prius is when it comes to what a 600hL brings to the table... Please find something worthwhile to complain about, and which makes some sense, and we'll debate it. This topic is a non-starter...
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "In the beginning of all the hybrid ranting the Prius was such the car that celebs were buying it and now that will shift to the LS600HL, but none of this same group will notice it if the (and a very big if) the next gen Prius makes the tech in the LS600h look outdated? "

    So Merc - now all of a sudden the buyer is going to make the business connection, huh? Your argument has always been that no buyer makes that connection and only cares about the performance and lux specs of the car and its competition. But now suddenly, they'll make that connection and solely about a battery and MPG (a battery that's as yet unreleased at the time they want to buy a car and one that will probably be on the LS right after it's on the Prius anyway) and ignore everything else including 430+HP, super lux features, a LWB roomy car, a dream ride etc etc. - and it's made now because you need it in this argument. As for celebs - they will buy whatever makes the best statement they want to show about themselves. I thought you'd have known that by now. The celebs that bought the Prius are exceptions to that cars classs of buyers, not the rule, and they were probably stolen from Mercedes anyway.

    If you need to believe that I am separating Toyota from Lexus then go on believing it. No automaker realizes the synergies of its cars the way Toyota does and it's why they'll mint $14bln plus growth a year in after tax profit for a long time to come. I've said before and I'll say again, if I am MB or anyone else in the segment I'd be in fear of Lexus because of what it accomplished in the worlds most profitable market and because of the clout and financial power of its parent. Aren't we already seeing evidence of this with MB holding up it's S450 to see Lexus pricing??? When was the last time that happened?

    For the record and for the last time I am separating an LS lux car buyer from an econobox Prius buyer. Common sense tells me there is a difference in priorities.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    OAC - it's pretty bad when you need to make an argument to upstage the LS hybrid with a car from the same company that has a 180 degree different mission statement. That's what's hillarious to me. The celebs that were buying the MPG in the Prius to show their green will probably go on buying it, particularly if it gets 100mpg. It's their way of making a statement. What's the big deal.

    Brightness - excellent post.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I've said before and I'll say again, if I am MB or anyone else in the segment I'd be in fear of Lexus because of what it accomplished in the worlds most profitable market and because of the clout and financial power of its parent.

    The financial clout of Lexus (or should I say Toyota Motor Corporation without triggering any offence) has produced nothing in terms of threats towards the German marques.

    In all honesty do you really think that the much lower priced LS is a real threat to the MB S Class in the USA? I have news for you: The LS in the USA has never been and is unlikely to be a threat to the S Class.

    Outside the USA the LS is a mere after-thought. In Japan the LS is likely to remain irrelevant in the luxury market as it is today (even with a new "L" logo on its hood). And in Europe the LS will remain an object of indifference among luxury car buyers even with a new re-skinned LS460.

    Lexus tends to rouse a lot of excitement about their ucoming cars. I can recall the euphoric anticipation among Lexus fans for the BMW beaters called the GS and IS. Based on the specs they did look like BMW beaters. Unfortunately as soon as the Lexus rubber hits the pavement euphoria disappears real fast .

    In fact give me one single Lexus model on the roads today that is a threat to one single vehicle among the luxury Gemran marques (including Audi)? Just one?

    And please dont respond with a future redesigned Lexus model or you will set yourself up for future disappointment. :P
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    How do you define "threat"?
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,678
    It's their way of making a statement. What's the big deal.

    Interesting article Have You Hugged a Hummer Today

    Purchasing a $100K Lexus with hybrid technology my only be worth the statement itself.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    "The financial clout of Lexus (or should I say Toyota Motor Corporation without triggering any offence) has produced nothing in terms of threats towards the German marques."

    You've got to be kidding me.

    But since you like to make comments that are out in left field then Dewey I'd think if you're the CEO of MB or DCX, you'd have no fear of Lexus. Ok that's your point and if you believe it that's fine. I certainly wouldn't feel that way if I'm running MB or anyone else and I can't imagine many business people who would. It's that attitude that has caused the Germans a lot of problems in the first place anyway.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    How do you define "threat"?

    When a model faces potential extinction due to persistent negative sales growth (i.e. Jaguar X-type).
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Based on your prior posts I am sure that if you were the CEO of TMC you would have no fear or even acknowledge the competition from MB/BMW/Audi.

    Success breeds arrogance. Most successful #1 companies end up being #2 because of arrogance. Will TMC remain humble after being number one? Unlikely, very unlikely!
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Has anyone on this board said the S faces potential extinction because of the LS?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    OK extinction was a bit extreme so let me revise my definition

    Threat as defined for this topic is best described as a fear of losing sales.

    So enough with the semantics. Let's get back to my initial question about anyone here having proof that MB should feel threatened by the LS?

    This LS threat towards the S Class seems to be a recurring theme here , dont you think?

    Also there is this recurring theme here on how much Lexus accomplished in such a short time with hardly any heritage in luxury to fall back on. (unlike MB).

    Well BMW's heritage in luxury is not exactly a century old. In fact it is not much older than the heritage of Lexus.

    So let me say something that has not been said here in this forum:

    It is amazing at how much BMW accompished in such a short time with hardly any luxury heritage to begin with .
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Isn't it obvious that S sales have suffered at the expense of the LS over the past 17 years? Lexus went from zero in 1989 to #1 in its "class". Did none of those sales come from MB? What models do you think LS buyers most often cross-shopped against?

    If the LS gains (which I recognize you might not agree with) further market share (normalized for where each Lexus and competing model is in it's life cycle), wouldn't some of those sales be coming from the S?

    Isn't the LS a threat to the S? And vice versa?
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    This LS threat towards the S Class seems to be a recurring theme here , dont you think?

    Has anyone on this board said the S faces potential extinction because of the LS?

    Oac came close when he used the term "scary".

    Face it. Lexican rhetoric throughout the years has suggested that the extinction of German cars is their dream.

    It's automotive genocide. We need to bring the UN in on these talks and lay some sanctions on the Lexicans. It's the only way we will get them to acquiesce.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,292
    "In all honesty do you really think that the much lower priced LS is a real threat to the MB S Class in the USA? I have news for you: The LS in the USA has never been and is unlikely to be a threat to the S Class".

    To me this is not a very smart statement. In other words, you actually believe that the MB S Class sales would not be any higher than they are today if the LS was not available here in the U.S. To put it another way, the LS is totally irrelevant in S Class sales. Is that right? If this is what you believe then you also must believe that Miami will have a white Christmas within the next couple Christmases.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Syswei and Cycolone4,

    ofcourse the LS stole some sales from the S Class. Of course they compete.

    But which models in the past 17 years were most affected by the LS? I think the most affected models were from Lincoln, Cadillac Jaguar and let us not forget Chrysler's Imperial. Do you honestly think most LS buyers would have bought an S Class instead? I dont think so.

    Also the S Class lost a lot of sales these past 17 years to the BMW 7 Series and Audi A8 . The 7 series was not taken seriously by Benz until the late 80s.

    In otherwords an increase of one Lexus sale does not mean a decrease in one S Class sale. That kind of math just does not work.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Lexican rhetoric throughout the years has suggested that the extinction of German cars is their dream.

    I think most lexicans/germancarfans delight in seeing their favorite brand succeed in the marketplace, meaning gain market share vs its competitors. But most rational lexicans/germancarfans wouldn't want a competing brand to actually go extinct. Competition is good for everyone, in pushing companies to innovate, and in keeping prices from getting out of hand.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,292
    I think that you would be surprised how many LS buyers would go with the S Class if the LS was not available. This is especially the case with the S550. In my case, I would seriously consider the new S550 if the LS600hL was not around the corner.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    But which models in the past 17 years were most affected by the LS? Lincoln, Cadillac, Jaguar and Chrysler Imperial models were most affected, dont you think? Do you honestly think most LS buyers would have bought an S Class instead? I dont think so.

    You're kidding yourself. Lincoln, Cadillac, Chrysler Imperial lost out to imports generally, not Lexus specifically. And I do think that when someone buys an LS, he was most likely cross-shopping a German import, not an American or British marque.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Lexus, the save all? Please say it isn't so.

    The new LS and all of it's iterations are sure to breathe new air for the entire model line. But this talk about it canning S-Class sales has gotta stop. Someone mentioned that the LS went from zero to number one in it's class. Yes that is true, but only MB has the gall to sell on 6 continents, likewise with Audi/BMW. Try Europe, Austrailia, even do a better job in it's homeland Asia, and then it shall be worthy a entrance into the world elite. This is not to say the LS isn't worth it's sales as I think we all agree there, but can't be THEE car. Cheap pricing can only get you so far.

    And we all agree that the intitial LS460 will be a magnificent success, but a complete wash? Hardly. Trust me, MB knows the Lexus strategy all to well. With S-Class offering more powertrain/model combinations than any other car in it's class(maybe in the industry), the LS will had no choice but for low-pricing to be it's saving grace....
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    The business world defines threat as something that will cut into it's profit margins and gain market share at a faster rate than it's own brand. Life's simple. But it seems on this board that the extinction and going bankrupt signs are raised by you and Merc1 the moment someone on the Lexus side raises the words like "hurt" or "threat". Please find a post where anyone said the S (or any German car brand for that matter) is dead or headed for extinction. It's not what we say - it's how you read it.

    " MB knows the Lexus strategy all to well. With S-Class offering more powertrain/model combinations than any other car in it's class(maybe in the industry), the LS will had no choice but for low-pricing to be it's saving grace...."

    I don't disagree with that at all. But another way of saying it is the more optionality you allow the more you have to charge. The further removed from a syndicated product you are the more your costs go up. It's really a business model and mission statement issue. No matter what though the 80/20 rule applies and is more like a 90/10 rule in reality as 80%+ of the sales will still come from 10-20% of the product offering. So in my book if you are buying the syndicayted S-classs you are paying a toll for the varied offerings that MB makes. It's the way business works. If you're a customized shop you've got to get the syndicated buyers to pay most of the freight.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    In fact give me one single Lexus model on the roads today that is a threat to one single vehicle among the luxury Gemran marques (including Audi)?

    I'm sorry. Is it Lexus' job to "threaten" German marques? That would lead one to believe that the German marques (including Audi) are controlling the market somehow.

    I don't see that being the case. If anything, the Germans are reacting to Lexus just as much, if not more so, than the other way around.

    Success breeds arrogance. Most successful #1 companies end up being #2 because of arrogance.

    Is that a vailed GM reference, or a vailed Mercedes reference? You wouldn't make such a complimentary Lexus reference. :P

    And I HOPE Europe doesn't give a whit about the Lexus LS. That only proves their secondary status in the automotive market.

    After what Tiger and someguy with one hip did this weekend, does Europe have any credibility vs. the US at this point? We tell them what's important, what gets done, and how it gets done, not the other way around. ;)

    Thank You

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Where did Lexus sales come from?

    Pretty much the same place BMW sales came from!

    A full 1/3 of BMW sales come from the 3-series.

    The 3-series is a great car! It is not roomy, but it has everything else. Good-looking, fun, versatile, fast, feature-laden, damn near hypnotic to drive, it's even easy to park! And word-of-mouth takes it the rest of the way!

    It offers a combination other cars can't in it's class.

    The Lexus RX300/330/350 works in the same mysterious way. It accounts for 1/3 of Lexus sales, and this will not change.

    It is powerful, roomy, elegant, luxurious, versatile, and reeks of quality! And good news travels just as fast.

    The 3-series and the RX have one thing in common.

    They are so good, you can't walk away from them. They are the benchmarks.

    Lexus has the ES, LS, and RX with built in customer bases. The rest of the lineup falls in around them, until further notice.

    Lexus vehicles aren't the prettiest, or the most fun, but they eliminate the screw ups MORE COMMON in high-end German and American-engineered cars and SUVs. That's all!

    Lexus eliminates the "Bitter Beer Face" you may've seen elsewhere.

    This loyal following has been cultivated over the past 17 years, and BMW has taken a similar path, offering a sporting, yet versatile (4-door), driving experience uncommon in the luxury car market.

    It's not that Lexus will kill Mercedes. It's just that they are the closest competitor as far as "Mission Statement".

    They are trying to do the same thing, but both have very different ways of doing it. And they are starting from different areas of the landscape/timeline.

    Lexus is building a can't lose proposition for themselves.

    Either they continue to absorb the lower-end of the luxury market, and scream value, or increase their appeal and prestige and move upmarket.

    I'd like Team Europe to stand up and say a S550 is $25k better than a LS460L.

    Come on, all together now......

    Ok, is it $10k better? $5k?

    Having stood next to both vehicles at the same time, I don't see how the LS will be a lesser vehicle, dynamically. The only difference is the LS has never been an $80k-90k vehicle, while the S has been for awhile.

    Lexus can change that paradigm, if they so choose. I'd like to see them push the prestige envelope. But they'd rather not mess with the Golden Goose. Can you blame them?

    The LS460 can do it, but Lexus/Toyota won't risk it, and the GS hasn't shown it can stand the $50k ground, so it would cause a chasm Lexus doesn't need.

    I think I've run out of analysis. Maybe.... :blush:

    DrFill
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    With S-Class offering more powertrain/model combinations than any other car in it's class(maybe in the industry), the LS will had no choice but for low-pricing to be it's saving grace....

    Interesting !!!! LS needs a low price as its saving grace ? This is a new one. How many times are we going to repeat ourselves when it comes to pricing. TPS is an efficient system, so efficient that Lexus/Toyota can produce their cars at lower costs relative to the over-priced German labor market. Do you not see how labor costs, supplier costs, and production efficiency play significant roles in car pricing ? Excuse moi.... I am not gonna overpay for a German car when a comparable version from Japan is cheaper and more durable (read: reliable). And since I don't live in my car, the few times I need to drive it, I enjoy driving regardless if its in luxury or sport mode...

    And let's see what the answer to DrFill's question is: Is the S550 $5/10/25K better than an LS460 ? Just look at the feature lists of both cars, and stack them side-by-side and tell us if the S is that much better, or its simply overpriced... which it is...
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    "Lexus eliminates that "bitter beer face" you might've seen elswwhere"

    They sure do. Only to add a face that screams: My parent company still after 17 years doesn't have any distinction whatsoever, including there still conservative and staid L-Finesse.

    BTW: Every car company generates sales in the lower spectrum of the models, so you don't have an arguement after me.

    And for the extra $$$ the S commands, asked the extra 29% of takers(mtd) that that bought the car with an average mean of $92k if it was worth it?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    OAC - it's pretty bad when you need to make an argument to upstage the LS hybrid with a car from the same company that has a 180 degree different mission statement

    I hear you, Len... Like I said, its all about Lexus-bashing.... Buying a Prius is now so mainstream, a status the 600hL will hardly ever meet (sales-wise and mainstream-wise). The latter is strictly a low production high-end luxury atuomobile, not a gazillion production econobox like Prius. At $25K, that's as affordable as most cars in its class. And with hybrids all over the car/SUV landscape, the Prius no longer stands out. Maybe with a 100mpg ! But there is the electric car at 125mpg. Why wait till MY '09 for a 100mpg Prius, when there is a current 125mpg electric car ??? I suppose this 125mpg car would now threaten the 25mpg 600hL as well.... Simply ridiculous line of argument from Dewey and Merc1 !!!
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