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High End Luxury Cars

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  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    These are signs that BMW has been subsidizing leases; also at the root of why BMW financial statements starting to deteriorate.

    Leases are the root of deteriorating financial statements for BMW? Why do you spread such misinformation?

    Have you read the BMW press release for the reasons why the net profit dropped 6 %. Please refer to the press release and please stick to the facts please!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Don't you love it when people just spew random, inaccurate information?.... I love the internet!!!

    Unfortunately it is I who stands corrected. ljflx had more current information.

    BUT profit deterioration for the latest quarter is a industry phenemona that includes both Toyota and BMW!
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    Have you read the press release for the reasons why the net profit dropped 6 %. Please refer to the press release and please stick to the facts please!

    We don't use facts here. Facts are forbidden.... :P

    So as I was saying earlier, have you heard about the crazy exploding engines in the Lexus GS?!?!?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    So as I was saying earlier, have you heard about the crazy exploding engines in the Lexus GS?!?!?

    Yeah I have heard about those exploding GS engines! But let me first refer to my creative writing class notes so I can elaborate further about those explosions ;)
  • Thank you for illustrating my point. M5 is so unique and made in such small numbers that BMW can afford to restrict supply and force the market actually clear at MSRP. No lease subsidy required. MSRP $81k, 61% residue, and 0,00285 work out to be about $1250/mo. $540/mo (the monthly payment on a 2005 330ci today) is 43.2% of $1250/mo; 43.2% of $81k is only $35k! That's a close indication of the real market clearing value of a 2005 330ci convertible today.

    The point is not about lease per se, but a simple illsutration of the great distance some of the marques are going in order to maintain the illusion of selling a premium car at high prices (and cook the books at the same time).
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    to take the leasing discussions where they belong - see the search features on the left side of the page.
  • BUT profit deterioration for the latest quarter is a industry phenemona that includes both Toyota and BMW!

    That is simply not correct. BMW profit declined for three quarters straight, but Toyota increased quarter after quarter, including the latest quarter:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9922145/

    That being said, I agree it is a tough market today to be a car maker. OTOH, it's always the tough markets that lead to major shifts in the industrial landscape; a bit like Darwinian evolution.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    That is simply not correct. BMW profit declined for three quarters straight, but Toyota increased quarter after quarter, including the latest quarter:

    So who is incorrect?? Why dont we look at the facts before we do name calling:

    WSJ.com dated November 5, 2005

    However, Toyota reported a decline in operating profit, a core measure that doesn't include one-time charges or tax considerations. Operating profit for the quarter was 404.3 billion yen, down 3.2% from 417.6 billion yen a year earlier. Toyota blamed the decline on hefty spending on research and development, new equipment and sales promotion.

    From the article you linked yourself from msnbc:

    Operating profit fell nearly 7 percent compared to the same period a year ago as higher material costs and the shift in demand to smaller cars with lower profit margins squeezed earnings.

    The Toyota profit that you are claiming went up includes one time charges/gains and tax effects . From a operating perspective these effects are irrelvent in relation to operating profits!

    BOTTOM LINE
    Operating profits for BMW and Toyota dropped during the last quarter!
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    As opposed to say,
    GM and Ford's profits? Really, who has had a good year this year? DCX? IF so, only because their last one was so bad.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    OK, it's BIG decision time on this. Help me out. Dealer has an '06 Jaguar XJ Super V8 Portfolio and says I should get it before its gone. He says it's a rare chance. I was originally thinking about a loaded '06 XJ Vanden Plas. Then he showed me the Porfolio. Of course, it's gorgeous, but I don't really know if it's worth the giant price difference. Maybe it is, but maybe not. Also, he explained that Jaguar has new '05's at a fair discount, so these price differences become even more staggering . . . and confusing. Help me out here. Give me some feedback from experienced Jaguar folks. Thanks.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Be aware that Jaguars take monsterous depreciation hits in the first 2 years, a left over side effect from their junk days of the late 80s\early 90s. You can buy a low miles 2004 XJR for under $50K. Thats an almost 50% hit in just TWO years. A 2006 XJ VP will probably be worth maybe $45K two years from now. Jaguar dealers have tried to sell me on so called "exclusive" Jaguars before, such as the XKR Silverstone. Ultimately what you are paying for is some unique wood trim, and some big wheels. I've always bought my Jags at 3 years old, and let the original owner throw his money down the toilet.
  • rjlaerorjlaero Posts: 659
    I've seen 2005 XK Jags with less than 10k miles for 54-55k.

    These are 80k cars new. And that's what the dealer is selling them for. It's worth 48-50 on trade in.

    That's a 30k hit in less than a year.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yeah, the value of normally aspirated Jags drops like a ton of bricks. The R cars hold their value a little better, but still take a beating in the first 1-3 years. What's more, you can buy the fancy 20" wheels from Jag if you really want them, and the wheels will hold their value MUCH better than the actual special edition cars that come with them. I'd recommend against it though.. the huge wheels dont do much of anything in terms of handling, and they seriously beat you up when the road conditions are anything less than perfect, and the rubberband tires wear out in about a week and a half.
  • Tagman, I think you should purchase the Portfolio because it's a rare opportunity and it's the most beautiful automobile on the road today. I especially like the car because it is 'eye candy' and it stands out more than anything from Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, and BMW. New XJ's have great reliability ratings (higher than European luxury sudans). Jaguar will rule the luxury automobile industry in 2006 and beyond.
  • mooseemoosee Posts: 22
    the 06's can and will be sold for a discount if there is stock, at the dealers, if only 1 or 2 at each the dealer the gross will stay up, on the 05 they(dealer) will not lose, you will have to check and see if there is any dealer cash, i dont no for sure but since ford owns them there is dealer cash(money for the dealer only not published) and that will only be true if there are alot of 05 untitled new on property, if they are used and, this means titled with miles from 10 to 20,000k go to black book and somewhere around loan value is fair. there is only one way to find out if there is dealer cash no some hungry fiance manger at dealership and they will let you know. remember go with gut
  • Lexusguy, good idea. A good '04 XJ is now down around 40K. But, as you suggest, rather than buying a used '04 XJR for around 51K, buy the plain jane XJ for 40K and then buy the 20" Sepang wheels (a $4500 option on the XJ R Series) from the dealer and save big bucks. These Sepang wheels look great and are by BBS. You could probably even order them thru a BBS dealer. I suspect you are right about the deterioration in ride with the big sneakers.

    After you pick up the Sepang wheels, if you just have to have the XJR look on your XJ, there are people on the web who sell the mesh R style grille insert! When you are all done, put the money you saved in a gold fund and watch it grow.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Thanks for the PR puff piece. Curious, do you work for Jaguar? Last time I checked, Jaguar is not ruling anybody. They are giving away $7K or more on new cars, the highest incentives in the entire industry. Jaguar is struggling just to survive. They are a long way away from beating Lexus, Mercedes, or BMW.
  • I did not engage in name-calling at all in the post that you were quoting; in fact, I kinda went out of my way to avoid adressing "you" when expressing my disagreement; using the word "you" only in the context of a point that we both did agree.

    "Operating profit" is one of those things that do not have uniformly regulated reporting procedure. The finances can be cooked every which way to make "operating profit" look however the company wants it to look, especially since the context seems to suggest that R&D and good-will are not amotized according to Generally Accepted Accounting Procedures. In any case, your original post said "profit" not "operating profit." BTW, I'm not even sure BMW is admitting to "operating profit" being down; like I said, one-time write-off can be a powerful tool for cooking books.

    Also, was just browsing some of the offers by High End Premium Marques, and noticed a most curious thing on MBUSA website: in the special offers section, besides MSRP, they also use "suggested dealer contribution" in the MBCredit offerings. That is indeed a funny term, after all MB is the manufacturer doing the suggesting, is it not?? What the heck does MSRP mean then if the manufacturer is also suggesting a lower number at the same time?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Brightness,

    you mention the following:

    In any case, your original post said "profit" not "operating profit."

    Why dont you read my prior posts before responding to them!

    My original post#11473 stated operating margins! I wrote the following:

    These are tough times in the auto market. Including for TMC which in its latest quarter saw decline in its operating margins !

    It appears you are completely ignorant in understanding that operating margins equals (operating profits/sales)!

    You also mention the following:

    BTW, I'm not even sure BMW is admitting to "operating profit" being down; like I said, one-time write-off can be a powerful tool for cooking books.

    LOL!!! First try to learn basic accounting before you accuse anyone of cooking books :D

    Happy Thanksgiving!
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    It appears you are completely ignorant in understanding that operating margins equals (operating profits/sales)!
    .....
    First try to learn basic accounting before you accuse anyone of cooking books...


    Namecalling and insults are totally uncalled for, dewey. They demean whatever argument you are trying to make. You will be better served simply making your point sans the other stuff you threw in above....
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