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High End Luxury Cars

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  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Can we just say Toyota/Lexus is doing real well ? May be an understatement...

    In fact it is a overstatement. Toyota sales are up a mere 5.2%. Honda did better with 6.4% sales growth.

    Total Lexus sales in terms of units posted a 12% increase! Lexus truck sales are doing real pathetic.
    The 32% increase in Lexus car sales is impressive but is solely due to the new generation of the IS and GS. The sales growth is likely to decline as the GS and IS become more dated.

    Total BMW sales sales in terms of units posted a 11% increase! BMW and MB are the top contenders in luxury car sales by a wide margin!
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    Dewey - so in your world an 11% increase beats a 12% increase (funny how now SUV's count when they negate with you guys but don't count when they propel). Heck I guess MB's 3% decrease is better than a 12% increase too. Come on and get real. Even a savvy finance guy like me couldn't defend your statements if I was on your side. You have a huge Lexus sales increas in cars at 31% in the area where the Europeans were strong and its' retention values keep going up on presold cars. Get used to it. Lexus is a powerhouse and No.1 seller in the US (by an increasing amount every month) and this is the premier market in the world. Rest of the world - don't care, I live here - and they are going to gain market share in the rest of the world big time in the near future anyway.

    BTW - still plenty of leg left in the stock market rally. I hope you bought something.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    BMW and MB are the top contenders in luxury car sales by a wide margin!

    By cars I assume you mean sedans/station wagons/sports cars...excluding SUVs? OK, let's use that definition, SUVs don't count for anything.

    November Lexus car sales: 14,001
    November MB car sales: 13,967

    Looks like Lexus has overtaken MB in car unit sales.

    BMW (18,419 units) still has a respectable lead though....for now.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Let us forget MB. It's still laying on its back with an intravenous in its arm under the care of Dr. Zetsche . The prognosis with Dr. Zetsche appears to be a bit better than a few months ago.

    Lexus beat BMW by one percent! I can hear those Lexus trumpets and the cheerleaders are already getting a bit out of control with the euphoria!

    BTW - still plenty of leg left in the stock market rally. I hope you bought something

    Nope not lately! I just "buy and hold" and dont time the markets! (Some of my clients have the same investments they had a decade ago and those are among my happiest clients)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    BMW (18,419 units) still has a respectable lead though....for now.

    True, very true!

    But in all honesty I dont really care!

    I am not a BMW fan at all! I am just a brand agnostic who loves their cars! The BMW logo in itself is of great indifference to me! I feel indifferent to all logos including the L logo!
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    One can understand, one can even sympathize when some people are jealous of success.

    Lexus' November car sales were bolstered by the new IS. But doesn't that say something ? This time last year, Lexus could barely sell 100 units of the IS, this past month they sold 4400+ units !!! Does that spell success for the new IS or what ?

    When the GS came out in March, many Lexus haters heckled the new GS as not being sporty enough, not even eye pleasing enough, too little ponies to compete, etc... especially, many tried to bench mark it against the new sportier M twins from Infiniti. Well, its been 6+ mnths now, and all the new GS does is continue to trounce the more *sporty* and more powerful M twins. 'Nuff said.

    So fast forward to Fall 2006 when the new LS comes out... Any bets how that car will sell in its first month ??? More importantly, any bets which car would sell more: a 2007 S or a 2007 LS ? I think it is a safe bet that the LS will be the biggest winner in this class regardless of the bogey man argument of price. If the LS costs less than the S, it will not be bcos it is a lower status car, it will be more bcos MB cannot build the S at a lower price point despite all the cost cutting. Would like to see whether BMW continues to maintain its sedan sales lead this time next year..
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    One can understand, one can even sympathize when some people are jealous of success.

    Thanks for your sympathy! Now my face is not so green with envy!

    If Lexus can produce a car that I can love, I will ditch my BMW and relentlessly pursue perfection with a Lexus.
    Unfortunately that has not happened yet!! If you interpret this as jealousy, so be it.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yeah it's funny when the market is rallying the heros say buy and hold and don't time the markets.
    Were you giving out the same advice after the market topped out in early 2000 and then plummeted all the way through 2002? Especially when your clients watched their multi-year profits wiped out and were dying to get out?
    I do believe some LS430's were being traded for Honda Accords-the LX 4's, not the EX 6's.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Were you giving out the same advice after the market topped out in early 2000 and then plummeted for several years?

    Absolutely!!!

    Some of my best bargains were found in the year 2000! Companies in resources and consumer products were selling for a song! I never recommended a technology stock until 2002!

    Bottom Line: Dont focus on the indexes! Focus on individual companies!

    Second Bottom Line: Bangle is a genius designer!!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    If you did indeed keep your "buy and hold" advice, especially in the middle of 2002, when the S&P was down 40%, from its highs in early 2000, you are indeed a person of true conviction.
    Most folks I know couldn't stomach throwing new money at the market by that time, but as been proved time and time again, the best time to buy is when you are totally sick to your stomach with worry and fear and yes:
    Chris Bangle is a genius.
    The more I look at my E60, the more I like it.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    When the GS came out in March, many Lexus haters heckled the new GS as not being sporty enough, not even eye pleasing enough, too little ponies to compete, etc... especially, many tried to bench mark it against the new sportier M twins from Infiniti. Well, its been 6+ mnths now, and all the new GS does is continue to trounce the more *sporty* and more powerful M twins. 'Nuff said.

    What a fluff piece! The GS' intended competition was the 5-Series, which it ain't even close to trouncing in driving qualities, performance or sales. Lexus didn't say squat about the Infiniti M twins as their competition yet because they've managed to outsell the M, a car with virtually no previous following this is seen as some type of big time accomplishment. Talk about making something out of absolutely nothing. Lexus doublespeak at its best.

    I guess this is what you have to tell yourself if you're a Lexus fan to help deal with the reaility that Infiniti was the one that truly came up with a 5-Series alternative.

    Yes the new IS is a success so far, I mean how could it not be compared to the previous car, but it hasn't done what Lexus wanted it to do as far as unseating BMW as "the" sports sedan in the segment. Oh but wait it sells so that is all that matters right?

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    "I guess this is what you have to tell yourself if you're a Lexus fan to help deal with the reaility that Infiniti was the one that truly came up with a 5-Series alternative."

    If the M is the 5-series challenger, it sure doesn't register on the richter scale of sales to truly *challenge* the 5-series. Of the two - GS and M - which has more sales to truly challenge the domination of the 5-series ? The answer is obvious enough. Soon the GS350, 460 and 450h arrives here, and lets see how much domination the 5 has over the GS. Fluff ahoy !

    Yes the new IS is a success so far, I mean how could it not be compared to the previous car, but it hasn't done what Lexus wanted it to do as far as unseating BMW as "the" sports sedan in the segment. Oh but wait it sells so that is all that matters right?"

    Maybe you missed the part where Lexus stated they are only producing 40K IS for MY2006, eh ? How can 40K of IS sales displace 100K+ of 3-series sales ??? And yes, its all about sales cos these companies are in the business of making money; that they please your driving senses is just part of the business model. Why not ask GM why they are in the mess they are today ? Their sales have declined and hence the business of *selling* cars and trucks is heading south. Of course, enthusiasts could not be bothered about sales, can they ?

    Which reminds me of a quote from Terry (Rroyce) on the resale price forum, paraphrased here: enthusiasts and MT lovers rave about how they love rowing their own gears until they have to sell their car. They soon find out the universe of MT lovers/enthusiasts who'd want that car is vaporware.... unlike auto trannied cars.... Reality sucks, eh ?

    Talking of reality, how about this technological marvel from MB ? link title Gotta love MB execs....
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Only politicians tend to manipulate words and numbers more than corporations, and then not always. Two poor numbers can be shown to be rich when contrasted as a "percentage difference" or "percentage increase" vs. the actual quantitative measurements. It's often too much hype and baloney. It's all too easy to include or exclude a particular variable. New models always demonstrate a large sales increase because they basically start out from zero. Anything above that is obviously a huge increase from a percentage basis, but from a quantitative basis it may be pathetic. The bottom line: If you are in the accounting department, you might be motivated to indicate that the company made no profit, and thereby reduce the tax liability of your company. BUT, if you are in the marketing department for the same company, you might be motivated to indicate that the company is undergoing huge growth. Often, it's all a matter of a deliberate perspective. The Lexus fan will come up with facts and figures to support Lexus. The BMW fan comes up with the facts and figures to support BMW. The Jaguar fan has facts and figures to support Jaguar. And BTW, would a stock broker know any more about cars than a lobbyist? Or a mechanic? So much baloney. Here's one for you: What is the oldest Lexus? Now look at a BMW, Jaguar, and Mercedes from the same model year, and I don't have to tell you which one looks like doggie doo, and which three look like classic cars.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    If the M is the 5-series challenger, it sure doesn't register on the richter scale of sales to truly *challenge* the 5-series. Of the two - GS and M - which has more sales to truly challenge the domination of the 5-series ? The answer is obvious enough. Soon the GS350, 460 and 450h arrives here, and lets see how much domination the 5 has over the GS. Fluff ahoy !

    Amazing, more of the same irrelevant talk about sales. Does the car itself have anything to do with this discussion at all? Is the above some type of automatic reaction to Lexus not being able to meet their stated goals of building a true BMW alternative when it comes to the actual capabilities of the car itself?

    When it comes to the cars themselves, not all this irrelevant sales talk, the GS and IS have not met Lexus' goals of building a true 3 and 5-Series alternative. The driving qualities simply aren't there. Lexus stated that they were going to build a 5-Series beater in the form of the new GS and it hasn't even come close to beating the 5-Series in what the 5-Series does best, being a sports sedan.

    The same thing is arguably happening with the new IS. Sure it is selling, but what in the world does have to do with it being a proper sports sedan design to dethrone BMW's 3-Series as the segment leader. Who cares about how it sells? The press reviews and most BMW intenders still state the 3-Series is still the standard of the class, not the new IS. I honestly don't see what is so hard to understand here.

    Now because Lexus was too dumb to put a manual tranny in the IS model with the most power, having a manual tranny isn't important. Lets forget the fact that every other car (except the A4 3.2) in the segment has a manual tanny available.

    Yet we have to read about that the placement of something as lame as a CD changer in a Mercedes or Jaguar etc. makes them behind the class.

    Yet it is ok for Lexus to say they want to beat BMW, but not offer an manual in the IS350, the car that competes with the one brand that manages to actually sell a decent number of manual tranny cars (3-Series)

    Nothing could possibly be any more hypocritical than that.

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Amazing, more of the same irrelevant talk about sales. Does the car itself have anything to do with this discussion at all?

    Sure it is selling, but what in the world does have to do with it being a proper sports sedan design to dethrone BMW's 3-Series as the segment leader. Who cares about how it sells? The press reviews and most BMW intenders still state the 3-Series is still the standard of the class, not the new IS. I honestly don't see what is so hard to understand here.


    So if we go by car mags reviews and your viewpoint, the IS should be dog poop in sales compared to the 3-series, bcos "it is not a proper sporty sedan...". I mean, why should any enthusiast buy such a crappy sedan with sporting pretensions which are largely unrealized, eh ? Every one should worship at the altar of the almighty 3-er... All hail to the King of compact sport-lux sedans... The fallacy in such a position is that if the IS was that bad, and that far off the mark, it should tank in the market. But is it ???? Of course not... So Merc1, how do you account for its success so far??? That's why the GS example is important here. Everyone believes that the M35/45 are far sportier than the GS300/430, so why are there LESS people buying the M than buying the GS ??? Is it that more people prefer LESS sporty sedans, or is it just the imagery and fantasy that the ever dwindling # of enthusiasts created in their minds ?

    The IS350 sure beats the crap out of the 330i in linear acceleration and speed. It beats the 3-er in interior ergonomics and luxury appointments (lest u forget, these are luxury cars), and when it comes to sport, define it as you like, the IS is plenty *sporty* enough. Very aggressive gearing, very solid chassis, responsive suspension, tight steering, excellent road handling, excellent performance, and near flawless execution (poor back seat room). That is a car winning in dealer showrooms across the nation. And you are too blind to see that, choosing to solely focus on a one-track mindset: a Denny clements claim that Lexus targets the Bimmer... blah blah...

    Did you miss the part about the new 2007 S-class' engineering marvel ?

    Here it is again... just so you don't gloss it over, it describes how MBs technology failure in the W221 was an embarrassment, and it was captured by the press...Not funny either..Go ahead, click the link below.

    link title
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    So if we go by car mags reviews and your viewpoint, the IS should be dog poop in sales compared to the 3-series, bcos "it is not a proper sporty sedan...". I mean, why should any enthusiast buy such a crappy sedan with sporting pretensions which are largely unrealized, eh ? Every one should worship at the altar of the almighty 3-er... All hail to the King of compact sport-lux sedans... The fallacy in such a position is that if the IS was that bad, and that far off the mark, it should tank in the market. But is it ???? Of course not... So Merc1, how do you account for its success so far??? That's why the GS example is important here. Everyone believes that the M35/45 are far sportier than the GS300/430, so why are there LESS people buying the M than buying the GS ??? Is it that more people prefer LESS sporty sedans, or is it just the imagery and fantasy that the ever dwindling # of enthusiasts created in their minds ?

    I feel sorry for you OAC. You just can't help but attach sales numbers to everything. Let me see if you can understand it put another way.

    At no time did I say the IS was a "crappy" sports sedan. What I said what that it isn't superior to the 3-Series, more or less what Lexus touted it would be. Whether or not it is a good sports sedan or not has nothing to do with sales. The point is that a BMW fan that likes BMWs for what they are, isn't going to find the IS and especially the GS to be a good alternative. That said, both cars are great in their own right. This level of discussion has nothing to with sales volumes.

    Everyone doesn't "believe" that the Infiniti M is sportier than the Lexus GS, eveyrone that has driven the two cars knows it.

    You're so hung up on sales to point where you can't follow any other viewpoint on these two cars. Both the GS and IS are sporting enough for the average Lexus buyer which is why they're selling, that doesn't mean they have unseated BMW as the defacto sports sedans in the two segments in the hearts and minds of enthusiasts.

    The IS350 sure beats the crap out of the 330i in linear acceleration and speed. It beats the 3-er in interior ergonomics and luxury appointments (lest u forget, these are luxury cars), and when it comes to sport, define it as you like, the IS is plenty *sporty* enough. Very aggressive gearing, very solid chassis, responsive suspension, tight steering, excellent road handling, excellent performance, and near flawless execution (poor back seat room). That is a car winning in dealer showrooms across the nation. And you are too blind to see that, choosing to solely focus on a one-track mindset: a Denny clements claim that Lexus targets the Bimmer... blah blah...

    This sounds like a Lexus Service Announcement - "That is a car winning in dealer showrooms across the nation." What is that? Winning what? Buyers sure, BMW converts? Hardly. The only reason this is an issue is because Lexus stated that the goal was BMW's 3 and 5-Series.

    My point about the GS and IS is that they're good cars in their own right (I liked driving them both), but they didn't unseat BMW in the sport area, which is what Lexus stated they'd do. Lexus was too dumb to even put a manual in the IS350 so it could really show off that power. That magic C&D test 0-60 time of 5.1 secs hasn't been duplicated by anyone else..hmmm.

    Just a few months back everything Danny Clemets said was treated as if it was from spoken from up above, and now because most of what he said was just plain old hype, it means nothing now. Yet let a Mercedes or BMW executive say something and it not happen and they're idiots or clueless. Again very typical and very hypocritical.

    Did you miss the part about the new 2007 S-class' engineering marvel ?

    Did you miss where the whole thing was a hoax? Of course.

    Article

    Before the test was conducted, Mercedes alerted Star TV that the Brake Assist Plus feature wouldn't function correctly in their testing hall, and recommended they not conduct the test at all.

    The system was not designed to work in the conditions present in their lab. Common sense, but here this is hyped up. The funny (actually sad) part is that you think this is something serious when journalist all over the world have turned in first-drive reports about this very same system and ALL of them saying it works as advertised in real world conditions, you know..the place it was designed for.

    Also, if you read further you'll realize that the system wasn't even activated due to the conditions in the lab.

    Before the test was conducted, Mercedes alerted Star TV that the Brake Assist Plus feature wouldn't function correctly in their testing hall, and recommended they not conduct the test at all.

    However, Michael Specht, a MotorBild journalist covering the story, decided to run the story anyways. Specht, along with the Mercedes engineers, devised a plan to "simulate" the Brake Assist Plus feature by manually applying braking pressure on the fog-induced track.

    Because of the low visibility, a board was placed over the track so that Specht would know the correct time to brake the vehicle. Unfortunately, the plan failed - due to the S-Class' plush suspension, Specht didn't feel when he passed over the board, and proceeded to then collide into the vehicle ahead of him.

    I'll give you one guess what happened to poor little Michael Specht. This morning it was announced that Michael was fired from his position at MotorBild.


    I guess you also believed 60 Minutes too about Audi and that Dateline didn't rig those GM pickups to explode.

    At least get the whole story before posting.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Lexus was too dumb to put a manual tranny in the IS model with the most power

    Does that mean MB was dumb to not put a manual in (so far as I know) any of the AMG models?

    Maybe neither company is dumb. Maybe so few buyers of luxury sport sedans actually want an MT that it would be a money losing proposition for Lexus or MB to offer the option more broadly.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    due to the S-Class' plush suspension, Specht didn't feel when he passed over the board, and proceeded to then collide into the vehicle ahead of him.

    As I said after reading the C&D review, the new S sounds more like an LS every day.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Does that mean MB was dumb to not put a manual in (so far as I know) any of the AMG models?

    Well yes and no. When it comes to the SLK55 and C55 they could use a manual. Dumb move there for sure, but on their other cars heck no.

    The difference is that in the segments most AMG cars compete in some of their compeitor offer manuals and some don't. Audi only offers a manual on the S4 which is why I said the C55 could use one, but the previous RS6 and upcoming S8 don't. Jaguar doesn't offer any manuals on any of their R cars.

    This is just the opposite in the much more crowded class in which the IS350 competes, in which nearly every competitor (except Audi) offers a manual option with their best engine. Mercedes, BMW, Acura, Infiniti all do.

    Lexus missed a big chance to really make a statement with the IS350 to folks who do like manuals and a good number of BMW 3-Series drivers do.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    As I said after reading the C&D review, the new S sounds more like an LS every day.

    You should probably read the full review in which they stated that with ABC the car handled much better. Car and Driver makes no mention of Airmatic and its Sport II mode which is what the car should be in for such mountain driving.

    Actually read any other review of the S and you'll find that a simple push a button cures excessive bodyroll. Autoweek said the same thing in their review of the new S-Class, until they put the Airmatic suspension in Sport II mode. If you'll notice that all the first drives were conducted in the same place, mountain roads. The current LS430 wouldn't have a chance in hell on keeping up with a S550 on such roads.

    The new S-Class is nothing like the flat-seated, wallowing LS430. The ride and handling compromise on the new S has been praised by nearly everyone so far.

    M
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