Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





High End Luxury Cars

15425435455475481156

Comments

  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    the GS and IS have not met Lexus' goals of building a true 3 and 5-Series alternative

    I think it is correct to say that Lexus targeted the 3 and the 5. I don't think it is correct to assume (as you like to because you feel an emotional need to show that Lexus has failed) that Lexus ever sought to out-sport BMW in every possible aspect of sportiness. For instance one of the online autorags, I think C&D or R&T, did a Q&A with the chief engineer on the IS project, who stated that Lexus felt its IS buyers wanted a more luxurious ride than the 3. So we end up with an IS that accelerates better than the 3 but doesn't ride as sportily/harshly. Is that such a surprise and is it a "failure"? Maybe it is a failure to meet the desires of a particular segment of the market that wants a certain type of ride, but it isn't a failure imho of what Lexus was trying to achieve....which imho was to appeal to the overall lux sport sedan market, not by beating BMW on every possible metric, but by bettering them on certain aspects and knowing that there are some tradeoffs between lux and sport.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The issue I have with the GS really doesnt have much to do with the car itself, other than their dumb decision to use the 3.0L V6. It's about the way Clements hyped the car. When you say that you're gunning for BMW, people tend to take you literally. I dont think Lexus necessarily failed with either the GS or IS.. other than to live up to the hype set by Clements. There's a well documented example of a Lexus that went to far in the sport direction, the IS300. Dealers didnt know what to do with it or how to sell it, and the vast majority of Lexus customers were not interested in a car like that.

    I think the huge failure of that car made them err a bit too far on the side of caution this time, especially with the IS350. There should be an off switch for the stability computer, and there should be a manual. I'm willing to bet that a manual will show in another year or two... and maybe that version will have a VDIM off button, but I wouldnt count on it. The important difference this time though is that the IS actually appeals to Lexus buyers.

    You'll notice that Infiniti never did any chest beating, no "we're gonna get you BMW". They just let the car speak for itself, which it has done very loudly. I think if Infiniti did try to hype the M against the BMW, the areas where the M doesnt quite match up would be criticized much more than they have been. Clements' hype has not helped the GS at all.

    For all the talk about how much the GS is beating the M35\45 in sales, keep this in mind. No GS going back to '93 has been able to keep up any kind of sales momentum after 2 years or so on the market. The G35 has already proven that Infiniti knows how to not only make a car that is a sales success for six months, but keep it successful. We'll know two years from now as to whether the GS still has the lead on M, or if it drops off of the map like the '92 SC, the '93 and '98 GS, and IS300 have before it.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    One of the higher-ups at Lexus was widely quoted as saying the 2006 GS would be a "5 killer."
    To me that says the GS was supposed to out sport the E60.
    Therefore Lexus distinctly failed in its original intent with the GS.
    The guy should have kept his mouth shut!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I don't know about that. The M advertising slogan "designed to outperform" IMHO does take an inferring swipe at BMW.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Excellent post, LG.

    For all the talk about how much the GS is beating the M35\45 in sales, keep this in mind. No GS going back to '93 has been able to keep up any kind of sales momentum after 2 years or so on the market. The G35 has already proven that Infiniti knows how to not only make a car that is a sales success for six months, but keep it successful. We'll know two years from now as to whether the GS still has the lead on M, or if it drops off of the map like the '92 SC, the '93 and '98 GS, and IS300 have before it.

    The thing about a BMW-like strategy includes an engine re-fresh every couple of years. That way Lexus keeps the model/trims fresh. That's why 2006 brings in the GS450h, a year after the new GS. Another year, by 2007, the new engines (GS350/460) arrives here in the US. These should keep interest fresh, and represents a departure from previous late upgrades that is typical Lexus.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Merc1, I'm simply going to focus on the S-class post here.

    Did you miss where the whole thing was a hoax? Of course.

    Of course... According to you, the *full* story is that it was rigged, eh ? Poor old Michael Specht. He was determined to embarrass MB, so much that MB engineers worked with him to further embarrass their company, so as to get Michael fired.. Just a wonderful piece of news... All made up by some overly ambitious TV reporter/car mag journalist. Just like CBS and NBC makes things up too...
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Porsche is seeking shareholder approval to amend its statutes in order to allow a foreign purchase!

    What company is Porshe thinking of?

    The following is my speculation and fantasy:

    Saab? I think a Porsche-Saab cobination would be quite interesting!

    Jaguar? Can you imagine the excitement of buying a Jaguar with Porsche engineering! It certainly sounds more exciting than the Ford influence.

    Combining Porsche's eagerness for a foreign acquisition and the prospect of GM or Ford selling Saab or Jaguar and you may end up with a very interesting result!
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    SOMETHING has to be said about the lack of a "classic" car appearance SUFFERED by Lexus. The older MB's and BMW's and Jag's have classic lines no matter how far back you go. Many of them can be collector's cars. Sure, you can spend $75K on a Lexus, and you'll get a decent car allright, but it will still have the APPEARANCE of, say, a nicely trimmed-up Avalon or other large Japanese car. It doesn't "look" like $75K. I'm not saying that they are not well engineered in some areas. I am saying that the Lexus SERIOUSLY lacks classic design lines.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I think it is correct to say that Lexus targeted the 3 and the 5. I don't think it is correct to assume (as you like to because you feel an emotional need to show that Lexus has failed) that Lexus ever sought to out-sport BMW in every possible aspect of sportiness.

    Likewise you seem to have that very same need to paint Mercedes in the worst possible light, well maybe not as bad as others...you seem to level off as the "discussion" goes on, but still.

    Maybe it is a failure to meet the desires of a particular segment of the market that wants a certain type of ride, but it isn't a failure imho of what Lexus was trying to achieve....which imho was to appeal to the overall lux sport sedan market, not by beating BMW on every possible metric, but by bettering them on certain aspects and knowing that there are some tradeoffs between lux and sport.

    This is basically what I said about the GS and IS in a previous post and that this was basically why the cars are selling. They're good cars in their own right, however when all this sales rhetoric is posted like it is the only thing that matters, it is time to remind some of the Lexus fans about what Lexus stated. Secondly, the many many posts about where Danny said this and Danny said that and the whole "you better believe it will happen" sermon that was given, only to have it not come true and some Lexus fans turn around and now say it didn't mean anything. Its ridiculous.

    No the GS and IS aren't failures, never said they were, but they have failed to provide a true alternative to a BMW 3 or 5-Series for buyers who really like those cars. Now Infiniti on the other hand they've done just that, make a true BMW alternative.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Of course... According to you, the *full* story is that it was rigged, eh ? Poor old Michael Specht. He was determined to embarrass MB, so much that MB engineers worked with him to further embarrass their company, so as to get Michael fired.. Just a wonderful piece of news... All made up by some overly ambitious TV reporter/car mag journalist. Just like CBS and NBC makes things up too...

    I'll take this as you didn't know what you were talking about when you first posted. If this story would have been something real it would have been all over the place, yet you're the only one that felt the need to bring it up - minus the whole story. Gotta do more research if you're going to bash.

    The MB engineers working with him would be under "he's gonna run the test anyway so let us see if we can make it work so we don't get embarrased". Only to have it fail because he was too much of an idiot in the first place.

    The whole thing has to be the stupidest thing I've read in years, yet you thought it was real.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    Plenty of people love the 90 LS. Not sure where you want to go with this but classic looks and beautiful design is always in the eye of the beholder. The older cars you love look - in 95% of the times like a square box to me. I always love the excess adjectives used in situations like this. Many means majority or a decent percentage. You are talking at best a tiny handful, not many. Classic is a definition of rarity - not plurality. If Classic represented "many" then the word Classic is in need of a different definition.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    It seems some of your fellow Lexus people will accept the truth from you. Interesting.

    Of course I agree with your post, except for one thing. The first generation IS300 didn't fail because it was too sporty, IMO. It failed because it lacked the proper Lexus interior treatment and more importantly Lexus features. They only added certain things down the road to make it more of a "Lexus". Well that and a ridiculously small back seat. The whole look of the car screamed tuner-Toyota, not Lexus. It had no direct ties or any family traits of the other Lexuses on the floor at the time.

    The new IS however is all Lexus, it looks just like a baby GS inside and out (well better looking on the outside to me), and that is how it should be.

    Plus 306hp compare to what 220hp before? That will get anyone's attention.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Plenty of people love the 90 LS. Not sure where you want to go with this but classic looks and beautiful design is always in the eye of the beholder.

    Exactly, former and current Lexus owners only. People that don't even care for Mercedes because of other reasons, still like they looked back then.

    Now about being a classic you're right, very few cars make the grade to be called that, but there surely haven't been any Lexuses so far that will ever come close to being called that. Lexus and "classic" shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence.

    I liked the original SC coupe, but a "classic" it ain't.

    M
  • Ljifx, let me start by saying that I don't pretend to have the data, but I disagree with you on one point. I think that the MB name has fallen most with the under 45 year old crowd who have turned to Bimmer, Audi, some Porsches, 50K SUVs, etc. for alternatives to what is seen as a stodgy, dodgy MB line. The well fed over 45 types are less performance oriented, less fickle, and more into traditional status symbols such as blue blazers, rep ties and MB cars. If I were running MB it is precisely these people I would try to keep. In military terms (its a German car afterall) I'd keep it a line for the field grades and general officers.

    Does anyone report mean age of car buyers by make and model? (At one time GM had mean income figures for their makes and models and the Chev Suburban buyer had a higher income than even the Caddy buyer. The explanation was that he had lots of toys to tow and dogs, people to transport).
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I don't know if the C-230 was such a mistake - MB has sold a billion of 'em, mostly to younger women who think they're "cute", and they kind of are, like a Baby Benz. Problem is, they're pretty junky. Stuff falls off inside like a Chevy Cavalier, in my experience. Not a good reputation for a "luxury marque", regardless of the price.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I'm glad you mentioned that. Just a few months back we got a chart on average ages for every luxury car brand, it showed the average Mercedes owner was 58. Now a few months later we get a claim that all of sudden its the under 45 crowd that is doing the buying.

    Mercedes has only lost favor with people who had one that gave them trouble - doesn't matter what age they are. This over 45 theory is nonsense, they're the group with the most money aren't they? If that is the case then Mercedes is stil choice car because the higher you go in price Mercedes sells more cars than any of the other mainstream luxury brands, say in the 60K and up bracket.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well if you're talking about the C230 Coupe, which was really a hatchback, then I'd too say it was a mistake.

    Nothing falls off anymore post 2004 facelift.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I think it applies to the LPS segment as a whole. The slogan is definitely intended to stir things up, but they did not say "designed to outperform the 530\545\550."
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "It seems some of your fellow Lexus people will accept the truth from you. Interesting."

    Heh. Maybe its if it comes from one of our own, and not one of the Germans, it sounds more like the honest truth and less like a slam against Lexus.

    When I said the IS300 was too sporty, I meant the whole package, not just stiff handling or a bumpy ride normally associated as being the "downside" of a sporty sports car. Cars like the 3 series and A4 are sporty and luxurious. Neither has a big backseat, so the IS cant be singled out just for that. They also look like cars that an adult could be seen in. The IS300 was like a four door Celica. It probably appealed more to the 25-30 crowd than the 3 or A4, indeed it had the youngest average buyer age of any car in the segment. The problem is 25-30 somethings cant afford a 3 series, A4, or IS300.

    The old car made just 215hp, down from the SC300 and GS300 thanks to a more restrictive exhaust. Combine that with poorly chosen gear ratios, and it was slow. That is one thing they definitely got right this time around.
  • my 2 cents....new GS...nice but too bland. sales will be
    close to non existent in 14 months. new IS...nice car. better proportions than the GS. missed the mark a bit without a stick. the new LS. will exceed the current versions sales figures and possibly out sell the new S. not because it is a better vehicle but because of price. all the hype about the future hybrid models....who cares. gas is cheap and plentiful.
Sign In or Register to comment.