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High End Luxury Cars



  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The BMW 5 series is one of the few automotive success stories in the past 2 years.
    You want to imagine how the sales of the 5 series would be without Chris Bangle's influence or the iDrive that any 9 year old could use, check out the 2003 5 series sales.
    Bangle + iDrive = BMW SUCCESS!!
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Merc... I can’t believe you didn’t mention the IS brochure sooner. I’m still trying to figure out if it makes good marketing sense or is just plain ol’ tacky. In any event, it’s as wannabe as it gets and it felt really strange flipping through it, almost embarrassing. I can’t believe a car company who is positioning themselves on such a lofty level would resort to that sort of thing. It would be interesting to know what kind of influence it has. If I were a Lexus fan, I would take umbrage. Furthermore, I believe it aids German car branding and helps sell German cars.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    If the 3 series is leading the way for BMW, and the 3 is the car that is least Banglized (which virtually every reviewer has said) and doesn't have iDrive, imagine what BMW total sales would be if the 5 and 7 weren't as Banglized as they are, and didn't come with iDrive (or at least weren't suffering under the bad press the earlier generation iDrive received).

    Before Bangle was around and before iDrive was even a pipedream, BMW sold more 3-series than anything else.... Those changes did nothing to the ratio of 3-series to other models. (BTW, the 3-series has iDrive when you get navigation.)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well when I went to drive it they didn't have any brochures, and at the Taste of Lexus they didn't have any. I went to their website and ordered one.

    Anyway, I think it is just plain tacky. If I were Lexus' marketing folks I would shown the car in Germany, France, Japan, America and England - all the major markets for the car since they're launching or re-launching the brand worldwide. A great chance missed due to simply wanting to be thought of as a "German" car, IMO.

    A lot of people will not be fooled by such a tactic and like you say they may just go for the real item.

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    1)Here is a quote from a JP Morgan research report dated 10/24/05 that references the issue ("provisions for product guarantees relating to earlier periods" - in finance lingo, that means setting aside even more money now to pay for greater than anticipated warranty repairs, which brings down current earnings)"

    These provisions are applicable industry-wide. . Although I am not denying warranty repairs are not high for MB it's just that the portion of the JP Morgan report you posted says nothing about such expenses in MB!

    2)No wonder they are going for a price increase on the S. They want you to pay for their past mistakes and give you a bunch of marketing BS as window dressing.

    2)You are presuming quite a lot with your claim that the price increase of the S is directly linked to the " provisions for guarantees related to earlier periods"!

    Could it be that the S is a far more superior car and is worth the price increase? That sounds like a far more likely reason than yours!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243

    Has Lexus not marketed their cars as Germans in the past?

    The only difference now is that the brochures feel more Bimmerisch than Benzisch.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Has Lexus not marketed their cars as Germans in the past?

    I'm sure they have, but not to this degree. This time if the person didn't know any better they would really think the IS250/350 are really German.

    I mean yeah they'd had commercials in which engineers from Germany, England and even Italy were shown driving around in RX330's like it was some type of revelation or smelling the leather like it was so superior. What I never understood about these ads is what in the world does a Lexus RX330 compete with from Italy or even England for the matter. Just plain old envy I guess.

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I would have figured repairs to be covered under the vehicle warranty, not the free maintenance. So where's the "hit"?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    It would appear that Lexus originally came along with MB in it's well-focused sight, and had lots of late-night meetings, and released the wanna-be copy-cat car. Yes, it was well-made and had a huge advertising budget from Toyota. The ads boasted features like heated seats and rain-sensor wipers, as though these features were incredible, obviously appealing to buyers that had never before experienced them in a MB or BMW. The price was reasonable enough, so the fire spread to the mainstream market. NOW, let's jump to TODAY. Lexus is grabbing wildly for more market share in all directions with an unfocused strategy, and this will ultimately cheapen and confuse the brand as it spreads itself out too thinly too fast. There can be no ORIGINAL focus for Lexus, as Lexus tries to FOLLOW the lead of BMW particularly and MB, of course. Those brands LEAD the way and Lexus FOLLOWS. That's a big difference. Sure, Lexus will throw a bone that's UNIQUE and special in some sort of way to APPEAR to be innovative, but it is TOO clear to escape that Lexus FOLLOWS BMW and MB. They without a doubt utilize industrial espionage and ANY tactic they can to DISECT the competition's cars, and try to figure out if they can build a better mousetrap. Not that there is something wrong with that, but it kind of sums up Lexus's strategy . . . try to build a better mousetrap that is in DIRECT response to MB and BMW. You can argue whether or not they actually build a better mousetrap, and that would be a different topic, because the point here is that they FOLLOW the leadership of BMW and MB and it's just plain obvious.
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    Although I am not denying warranty repairs are not high for MB it's just that the portion of the JP Morgan report you posted says nothing about such expenses in MB!

    Dewey, you can use as many exclamation points as you like, but you are still incorrect. Len was referencing an excerpt out of my post #11776. In that post, I gave more of the original report, which was specifically a research report on DaimlerChrysler (not the auto industry), and this excerpt was specifically about the "Mercedes Car Group", which is the division that runs along parallel to the "Chrysler Group". Please read the original post and you'll see you are just wrong on this one.

    Sorry, my friend.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I based my conclusion on the information that Len posted!

    Thank you for informing me about your post #11776 which at least is complete! I should have read the prior posts more thoroughly.

    Also nothing has changed . I am still correct in saying that it is ridiculous to claim the S Class prices are rising because of the mentioned provision.

    Thanks again!
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    Does that mean MB and BMW follow Ford's model T? Who cares who follows who? Come on, let's face it. Today is not your good old days. The company that cannot build cars that consumers buy will be out of business. Now tell me which company make more money. I bet you Toyota/Lexus makes more money that the whole car industry combined. Who is the leader in hybrid technology? Does MB, BMW or any German car company have a hybrid car out yet? Again case closed.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Those brands LEAD the way and Lexus FOLLOWS

    It will be interesting to see which brand the new Hyundai luxury marque will try to follow(assuming they will try to follow an established brand).

    Think of a high quality/reliable Hyundai Luxmobile with a separate dealership! Who will they hurt most? Could it be the luxury brand that wears its good reliability on its sleeves. I do think so!

    Ominous for Lexus is the fact that the Sonata is more reliable than the Camry. Going a step further it should not be that hard for Hyundai to establish the most reliable luxury marque in the USA and hopefully Canada. And let us not forget the LOW PRICES for such Korean luxury!
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    ctsang says:

    I bet you Toyota/Lexus makes more money that the whole car industry combined.

    ctsang, that's absurd.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,662
    It's not absurd - it's true. Been true for years now. They make more than 50% of industry profits and there have been times when it dwarfed 50%. That's why Merc1 hates the sales issue but that's why it always comes back. All of your knocks are subjective. Cash and profits are as real as it gets. Keep on trying to put them down but be gad you don't have a competitor like them to deal with.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Direct competition or no, I saw more than a few RX300s (they dont have the 330 engine) around the Monte Carlo area. I cant remember seeing any other Lexus vehicle there. There was one Infiniti FX35 that I saw. In stark contrast to that, you literally couldnt throw a stone without it hitting a Cayenne, bouncing off and hitting the Cayenne parked next to that one.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    That's why Merc1 hates the sales issue but that's why it always comes back. All of your knocks are subjective. Cash and profits are as real as it gets. Keep on trying to put them down but be gad you don't have a competitor like them to deal with.

    Not true. What gets me is how you Lexus folk try to use sales and corporate success as the end-all to any discussion about cars. From buyers caring about what a CEO says and financial statments to let us forget about what the Lexus GM said about BMW because the GS/IS are selling. Its ridiculous. It is like a knee-jerk reaction to any and everything critical that is said about Lexus when when it comes down to most buyers don't care one bit about any of this and none of these companies (except maybe Jaguar) are in any real danger of going out of business.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Can't wait to see if this one comes true:

    "There will also be an optional 5.0-liter V-8/hybrid package. At the Tokyo preview, executives said the gasoline-electric powertrain will produce "an acceleration feeling of a different dimension." That's in line with what TCC had been told by recently retired Lexus General Manager Denny Clements, who'd been championing a line of hybrid performance vehicles. The first of these, the GS450h, was also shown in Tokyo . In 5.0-liter hybrid form, a senior American Toyota executive boasted to TheCarConnection that the LS will outperform both the new Mercedes-Benz S-Class and BMW 7-Series - a tall order that will be closely scrutinized. "

    Of particular note: "Acceleration of a different dimension and outperform the S-Class and 7-Series."

    I wonder does that mean just the 750i and S450 or the entire range of S-Class and 7-Series cars? Outperforming the 760Li and S600 and upcoming S63 AMG I can't see happening, but we'll see as TheCarConnection noted it will be "a tall order that will be closely scrutinized". If this doesn't happen look out for the denials and lets pretend Clements didn't say it stuff will start yet again!

    Either that or we'll get all types of spins on what "performance" means or we'll a long environmental speech about the one obvious thing that the hybrid will "outperform" the German cars in - fuel economy.

    Still no comment on the "help GM" stuff either I see. I guess that one can't be spun hard enough to make it legit.

  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Acceleration of a different dimension

    Marketing people are often guilty of marketing hyperbole. I don't think marketing people that work for Lexus are that different from marketing people that work for other companies, including German companies, in that respect.

    Do you feel that German car company marketing people and company managements are more honest than their Lexus equivalents? How many times did MB execs say that they had fixed their quality problems and would soon be number one in initial quality/reliaibility? Well, I would say that since their initial quality still lags other German car companies (much less Lexus), then it ain't fixed. And we all know MB later backed away from their "number 1 quality" goal, saying that "American tastes are different so a German company can't finish first". Its rather funny that those pesky American tastes haven't kept Porsche from finishing #2 in long term reliability and BMW from finishing #3 in initial quality.

    So no, I don't think that we'll literally see acceleration of a different dimension .
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    So should I take this as your admission that Lexus execs are capable of giving BS also?

    Do you feel that German car company marketing people and company managements are more honest than their Lexus equivalents?

    Of course not, all car execs talk a lot of stuff.

    The only reason I brought it up is because some of your buddies seem to point the finger at whatever a BMW/Mercedes exec says and call it "bs". Yet when a Lexus exec like Clements talked all that stuff about making a BMW beater it was treated like word from up above, but since it didn't happen it is swept under the rug by some Lexus fans here. The same ones that told us to "watch out" and "get ready" like the earth was going to move because of Clements statements, which amounted to bunch of nothing, especially in the case of the GS.

    Lastly, the part about acceleration of a different deminsion may be hyperbole, but the part about outperforming the S-Class/7-Series is a very attainable goal, but I don't think it will happen. Saying one car will "outperform" another isn't hyperbole since things like that, one car outperforming another, happens all the time. Thing is the statement is so vague to the point it can be spun in so many differnt ways by the Lexus faithful, when such a thing doesn't happen. Similar to the remarks about the GS and then IS.

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