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High End Luxury Cars

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  • guestguest Posts: 774
    I readily admit that the S is the Benchmark.

    But, as you seem to understand yourself, a major qualiifier needs to be added.

    I sincerely question the duration of that statement.

    Hemi

    So now if the LS sells 30k in 2000, unless it sells close to 60k in 2001, it's not a good a redesign? I'm not following you.

    Since Lexus is quite proud of the Next LS, and is showing it off to all concerned, a quantum leap in sales, and a sag in current LS sales, may yield the increase of which you speak.

    You can set the bar as high as you want. You know the LS will clear it with ease! ;)

    DrFill
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    DrFill,

    first and foremost let us make sure we are talking about the correct benchmarks.

    Tagman and Hemi are talking about the benchmark the S Class sets in terms of of the car itself when compared to other models.

    While the benchmark you are talking about is based on sales $$$. Sales benchmarks say little about a car as movie box office sales say little about a film.

    An independent thinker will not be swayed into liking a movie or a car just because of how much $$$ they raise.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Posts that are focused on other members are not appropriate and are being deleted.

    Please stick to the cars and not your opinions of other posters.

    Thank you.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    It was my understanding that Lexus sold 49,000 LS' in 2000, not the 30k you quote.

    And yes the bar has been set quite high nowadays by the ubiquitous S-Class. But with better suspenders and a decent set of all-seasons, it should at the most meet the bar.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I have thought that way about Infiniti's since the new gen cars start appearing starting with current Q45. This car is missing the polish cream the '97-'01 models had. Those cars were very sound and tight.

    The same for most of the other cars in it's class. THe QX56 is by far and away the most "detached" SUV in it's class. At 50k, there is no reason for the shortcomings of this ride. Hopefully the new G's are improved over the predecessors. But I must admit, Infiniti must've sent the M to finishing school as this is the best car in terms of fit/finish in the line-up. I think it is their best offering hands down....

    But one thing I can say about the Infiniti's: Boy are they reliable.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Alright Houdini, I say this with a grain of salt. My worst HELM was my '87 Audi 5000 S. This car was during the dark days of Germany, and this one beared the grunt of the gloom.

    Two days after having the car, the ECM goes out. Got it fixed, a month later, the power steering goes. Then the "sudden acceleration", and so forth....

    What a difference 20 years make. My A8L W12 has been a model of absolute quality and reliability. Not so much as a hiccup in this car with 14k miles on it. German engineering had dark days indeed, but thankfully, looking at the renaissance of MB, BMW, Porsche, and Audi, those days are over.....
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Ah-h '87. BMW gave us the first M6 and Porsche had the 3.2 911 and 930 with magnanimous whale's tail. You had to workout on a leg machine to drive those Porsches. Even today I'll take a 930 cab.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    My post referred to the "Benchmark" vehicle, not sales "Benchmark". Nor did I imply sales as a criterion.

    If you are going to interpret for me, try to do it accurately.

    Tag

    I was not quoting sales numbers for the post. It was an example to illustrate my point.

    My posts aren't this hard to understand. They can't be! :mad:

    DrFill
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    The 3 coupe is nice, but it's going to be facing brutal competition in the states from the G35 coupe, which like last time, is going to be faster, sleeker, and sportier than the sedan.

    I don’t know about brutal competition but you know I like the G coupe concept—a handsome piece of work—one of the best lookers IMO. I sure hope it comes unbotched.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    …what do you think would happen to BMW design if it continued introducing cars with no major design changes? IMO BMW would share the same fate as Jaguar in which customers would become quite vocal in their complaints about too subtle sytle changes.

    I always point to Porsche when anyone asks that type of question. The 911 basically looks the same as it did 40 years ago. I’d like the same for Jaguar but they are a different problem. I think Ford will be the death of Jag, AM and Volvo unless they sell them off to worthy concerns. Also, Jag was always plagued by reliability issues so in the hands of Ford the market perception just gets worse.

    I don’t think BMW needed radical styling change. The only thing the new styles did was trumpet “new model”. They could have done the same thing with an evolutionary approach just as Porsche does. Porsche actually went backward with the exterior styling of the 997 in response to complaints about 996, even though they did step up the interior in terms of material quality.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Tag

    I was not quoting sales numbers for the post. It was an example to illustrate my point.

    My posts aren't this hard to understand. They can't be!


    Doc,

    You've got someone else's post confused as mine. I don't know what you are talking about . . . I never replied anything about sales numbers . . . re-check, my friend.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    It was FUN driving home in that new Lotus Elise. I did opt for the loaded "Sport Elise". Turns out the car is number 5 (of 50). I had originally thought it was number 25. It makes absolutely no difference, however. The only drawback . . . rather harsh on very rough roads. Avoid them when possible. Otherwise, tons of excitement.

    My little guy thinks it's a real-life Hot-Wheels race car. In some ways he's probably right.

    Anyway, I've got a hungry family here. I'll chime in later . . . and start talking HELMS again. ;)

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Congratulations, that's awesome!
  • I am new to this board and hopefully will not be asking too naive a question. I am in the market for an AWD luxury sedan and today did the 2nd test-drive of an Audi A8L. Great driving car, and I sense that the Quattro system is technologically superior to the 4MATIC system of the M-B.

    However, my dilemma is A8L vs M-B S550 4MATIC (which I realize isn't on the road yet). I like the styling of the M-B better, and after having driven a flawless S430 for 5 years, I feel as though I am being a traitor jumping to the Audi side.

    Any comments? I believe that the Audi is a better car for the money - the A8L being about $12K cheaper than the comparable M-B - and has a sportier feel on the road. What are the impressions of others of you?

    shrinkrap
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Yes, '87 shaped to be an imaginery year for the Germans. IT also proved to be a great year for the Big 3 American, fast forward to 2007, and well.......

    BTW: I almost bought an M6 in '87. But with the 58k sticker and so-so fun factor, it just proved to be a waste. So I took the plunge on one of the greatest American cars ever built: Buick GranNatitional. This wasn't granny's Buick my friend. If you wanted to go fast and look good doing it, this was the ride of '87(save for the fun I-ROC Z and Corvette)...
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,277
    Why don't you wait for the ultimate AWD luxury sedan, the LS600hL? It will be available in the spring of 2007.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    READ: Before the end of the decade, without a shot of goodness into Jaguar, the brand will be in jeopardy of dying out. With the new XK comes worry. Don't get me wrong, aside from the Taurus-esque grill detail, the car is strikingly beautiful. "BUT" With the likes of the SL, XLR, and SC as your competition, why bring the newest car to the party with the weakest engine? And the new XKR won't stir any souls as the 400hp mill is only 18hp higher than the MB unit. It just don't have anything that screams I'm different from everyone else, ah but the interior is oh so well crafted, and I'm an interior nut, this one looks like Audi design, if not Audi grade...

    I've related several times that Jag will have to eventually evolve the styling of the XJ. The car, while very capable, isn't as exciting as it's Euro peers. The car has current technology and a very atheletic stride to it, but in this class, styling is what sets the tone with many buyers(German, American, and Japanese alike), and the XJ looks staid in comparison. The look is too reminescent of the previous car. Only we car nuts can decipher the difference.

    Add in the underwhelming X-Type and tired S-Type only adds to the disaster. A complete model range line-up needs to effect soon, with the exception being the XK. Development of a higher performing AJ-V8 with 400-hp out of the box as standard would definetely set the tone for this car. What's wrong with using the awesome new Aston 4.3L V8 with 380hp on tap??

    Speaking of Aston, even with new model designations and better quality, there is still something missing in this low-pro/high-dollar maker. Once the stable of all things exclusive, the brand has been "FORDified". The brands quality has taken a step backward, albeit reliability has been taken way up considerably....

    And yes, Porsche addressed it's customer base swiftly with the 997 V. 996. The car has went back to the perfect-round eye vs. the new and unwanted egg-eye. It actually looks cleaner and simpler.... Thanks Porsche for listening.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    You face the same exact dilemma that I faced when shopping for my next AWD ride, I too tested the S500 4-Matic, and while not quite as sure footed as the Quattro, it did get the job done right. I don't know what part of the country you live in, but here in NY, the Quattro system proved to be better than some big honkin'4WD SUV's.

    I chose my A8 over the Benz because of Audi's complete blend of performance and luxury. No other car at the time(Fall-'05) offered what the W12 did. No car offered this much power in AWD, and they still don't.

    But don't get me wrong. I'm a MB fanatic also, having owned two in the last 5 years. The first a magnificently reliable S500, and the second a stupid fast S65 AMG, which I regretedly sold to pursue my A8L W12.

    For what it's worth, the S550 4-Matic will be the closest thing in matching Audi's Quattro AWD. It retains the 40/60 split like on the quattro, but does without a LSD, a crucial piece in the mountain-goat-like surefootedness of the A8.

    And I must admit , Lexus has the LS600hL coming out, but from what Lexus released, the car will be 100% RWD until it feels the need for AWD. These systems have proved twitchy on ice covered roads and useless in most situations that you feel you need the AWD....
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Say it ain't so, what is BMW doing. The Z29, with all of it's unique weight-saving techniques, while good, the look is actually, dare I say, worst that Bangle??????...........
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    I see plenty of A8L in SoCal. So, again more bias than fact.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I do agree appearance-wise the Z29 is more of a beast than a beauty.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I don’t think BMW needed radical styling change.

    Interestly your description fits one part of BMW and that is called the MINI.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    And the new XKR won't stir any souls as the 400hp mill is only 18hp higher than the MB unit. It just don't have anything that screams I'm different from everyone else, ah but the interior is oh so well crafted, and I'm an interior nut, this one looks like Audi design, if not Audi grade...

    The XK was in the same showroom today, and it is a beautiful car, particularly considering the exceptional price. What comes that close for the same money?

    I've related several times that Jag will have to eventually evolve the styling of the XJ. The car, while very capable, isn't as exciting as it's Euro peers. The car has current technology and a very atheletic stride to it, but in this class, styling is what sets the tone with many buyers(German, American, and Japanese alike), and the XJ looks staid in comparison. The look is too reminescent of the previous car. Only we car nuts can decipher the difference.

    The XJ is a classic, and the new generation aluminum Vanden Plas is a steal, but the design mistake was not angling the front end to be a tad more like Bentley, IMO. The interior is gorgeous as well, but a little more "techi" look without sacrificing its luxurious and sumptuous look and feel would have been the answer, IMO. Amazing class-leading fuel economy for a car so large and nimble. With the recent high quality and reliability, I love Jags, even as they are, but I would love to see the necessary improvements made before it is too late. The loss of Jaguar would be a tragedy, IMO.

    And yes, Porsche addressed it's customer base swiftly with the 997 V. 996. The car has went back to the perfect-round eye vs. the new and unwanted egg-eye. It actually looks cleaner and simpler.... Thanks Porsche for listening.

    Porsche removed the gorgeous, subtle and sexy air intake (is the term cowl?) at the base of the windshield with the new generation 911. It was a distinguishing trademark of 911 and it should have stayed to distinguish the 911's from the Boxsters. I miss it. (Probably got the ax as a result of a wind tunnel test, darn it.) The rear lights had a nice subtle connecting wrap in the previous generation that also should have been retained to distinguish the 911 from the Boxster, IMO. Regrdless, I totally agree with you that the headlights are an improvement.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Eliminating turbo lag is one of those things that get pronounced numerous times but never quite done. Turbo impeller has mass, therefore moment of inertia, to be overcome when spooled up. One can reduce turbo lag but never eliminate it. When an industry rag tells you a manufacturer has eliminated turbo lag, you can bet your bottom dollar that when the next product comes out without turbo, the same rag will completely trash the previous (current) generation with turbo as a piece of crap with intolerable turbo lag . . . the same cycle happend numerous times in the huckster's industry of drug/performance car pushing.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    I don't really think Aston Martin and Volvo are in trouble right now. Aston makes more beautiful, popular cars than ever, and Volvo is doing great with the new C70 and the XC90 has been a massive success. Jaguar and Mercury are the companies pulling Ford down right now. It's all they can do to make a profit.

    However, you forgot Land Rover, which is doing commendably- Range Rover and RR Sport are flying off the lots as usual, and LR3 has been a hit. Their only flop in the US was the Freelander, which has been discontinued, to make way for the LR2.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes. True. I should have said BMW claims to have reduced turbo lag greatly.
    They cannot have entirely eliminated it.
    Every review I read indicated a slight turbo lag was present.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Every review I read indicated a slight turbo lag was present

    The BMW inline 6 in itself is a marvel and this twin turbo version is only going to make it better. I will gladly suffer the slight turbo lag of BMW's twin turbo inline 6 especially when you compare this gem of an engine with other 6 cylinders.

    Cant wait to test drive one!
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Actually hp and brightness, they can fully eliminate lag. There is a such thing as variable-vane geometry. This method actually spools up one turbo faster than the other, giving the sensation of a normally-aspirated car. It works even better in a single turbo engine. I tested the new 911 Turbo last week, and judging from the previous 996, this car has completely ruled it out.

    The old car for instance, would suffer in the 2-3k rpms, where it really counts the most. This car spools up so fast that you forget it's actually a turbo.

    The German makers have been doing this for a couple of years now, starting with the Audi/VW 2.0T 4-cylinder engine. Combined with it's direct-injection, it gives this littlest 4-cyl the power of a V6 with awesome fuel economy.

    BMW has promised to eliminate turbo lag on it's first time in a long time turbocharged car. I don't think they'll make such an assumption if they couldn't live up to it......
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    You're right, there is no other car in the XK range that delivers what it can at it's price. The SC is there, but come on, that isn't a contest.

    But have you looked at the XK's sticker with some mild options? This thing can get down right pricey, passing the XLR on up to the $90k mark only set by the trendsettin SL and Porsche Cab.

    See we are on the same page about Jag. The company still has that certain verve to it that only needs some voom to show the marketplace "that hey, were still here", even tho our parent company closed one of the most historic factories in the world where we were built, Browns Lane...
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