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High End Luxury Cars

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  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Jaguar, let's see: First off, take the X and S-Type's out back and put them out of their misery. DO NOT USE A FORD CLONE PRODUCT, as is the case with the X's Mondeo, and the S' Lincoln LS/Ford T-Bird. Build a sporty LPS that can fully compete with the 3 Series, A4, IS, G35, and TL seriously. The S-Type is a definete must do. Use one of those wonderful Euro chassis that we Americans can only dream of for the next S-Type.

    Great ideas, for sure. Let me add one more. Freshen and modernize the beautiful XJ. Offer only the long wheelbase, and modernize and work off of the Portfolio styling, but slant the front end a little more to bring it up to speed with, say, Bentley styling. Freshen the rear light treatment and modernize the interior appointments. Stay with the aluminum body, add more standard power without the turbo. Let's say by the 2009 model year, in time for the Porsche Panamera.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I got a brilliant idea for both. For Aston, the 4-door sedan MUST BE BUILT!! With even Porsche going 4-doors, there is absolutely no holding back now. Also expand the line-up, with only 3 cars, it's a major struggle. Altho the V8 Vantage is wonderful ride, it ain't no 911.

    As far as I know, plans for the "Rapide" are still on, and it should hit the market before the Panamera does. I think the V8 Vantage's biggest problem is its engine. Its not special enough, and its not nearly powerful enough. Its a warmed over Jaguar AJ-V8, with less power(!) than the XKR. What was the point of that? To compete with the 911 Turbo and the next Maserati coupe, the V8 Vantage needs another hundred horses.

    Jaguar, let's see: First off, take the X and S-Type's out back and put them out of their misery. DO NOT USE A FORD CLONE PRODUCT, as is the case with the X's Mondeo, and the S' Lincoln LS/Ford T-Bird. Build a sporty LPS that can fully compete with the 3 Series, A4, IS, G35, and TL seriously. The S-Type is a definete must do. Use one of those wonderful Euro chassis that we Americans can only dream of for the next S-Type.

    Unfortunately for Jaguar, the S-type won't be replaced until '08, and the X-type will continue probably through '09, and then will be killed with no replacement. Jaguar can't compete with the 3 Series, A4, IS, G35, and TL. They can't be a volume luxury car maker, and they cant sell cars for $35K. It was that kind of thinking that created the X-type in the first place.

    The next S-type had a chance to be a great car, when plans were to use a shortened version of the XJ\XK's aluminum structure. Instead, its going to continue on basically the same DEW98 platform as the current car. The S80\MKZ platform is not suitable (it would produce a $60K X-type). I dont think Ford has a wonderful Euro chassis to use.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The new 300 will use the new E platform.

    Wrong. Nothing has been officially decided or announced about a new 300 or a E-Class. Neither car is scheduled for a re-design until the 2009 model year. Also, the current 300 doesn't just simply use the old W210 E-Class chassis either. It uses bits and pieces from it, not the entire chassis in the way the Crossfire uses the old SLK chassis. The suspension design, seats, dashboard layout and other things are clearly W210 E-Class, but the rest isn't. The suspension for example is iron on the Chrysler whereas it was aluminum on the E-Class. There were thousands of little (read: cheaper) changes done to get the E-Class parts bin down the entry-level 300 prices.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I guess I just don't get your point about the Camry and the LS looking the same, or having a resemblance. Why do you care? Why does this bother you so much? Is the E Class diminished because Chysler now uses their platform? Not really. It is just good financial planning and trying to save money to make a better car. Please get over this.

    Yeah obviously because it doesn't bother me, just an observation. Supposedly Lexus and Toyota have different design teams and facilities yet the cars still look a lot alike. Financial planning and saving money don't have squat to do with any of this because they aren't the same car, I'm talking about design. Some Toyota fans need to get over the standard response about financials, it doesn't apply to any and everything about an automobile!

    M
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    This is something that might be interesting to this forum.

    Some interesting information about the different marque's engines and their horsepower ratings, torque ratings, and average displacement ratings.

    The results speak for themselves, and the methodology is explained, so no need for any spin here.

    link title

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    However, the point is that Toyota is a DIFFERENT marque than Lexus, even if it is the same parent company, and whether or not platforms are shared, the styling and design similarities do not necessarily need to be so similar.

    Bingo. Not a hard point to grasp.

    M
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    This is fairly good look at the future model plans for major European marques . . . all in one handy chart.

    link title

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Interesting, Mercedes preference for torque is clear there.

    I got the Oct issue of C&D today and their initial test put the LS460 at 6 seconds 0-60 mph. They said because the engine hits a flat spot and doesn't really give any real push until 3500 rpm. Different engine/tuning practices at work here between BMW, Lexus and Mercedes. I do expect that 6 sec time to improve though when they test the LS460 on U.S. soil.

    M
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I do expect that 6 sec time to improve though when they test the LS460 on U.S. soil.

    The word is getting clear that it's about 5.4 or 5.5 seconds 0-60, but we'll see if it really does that.

    The flat spot is unfortunate, however. Did they say if it's due to the way that tranny is so low geared in the first two gears and then has to ramp up from there? That would make sense to me.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    For those interested in the Mercedes AMG performance variants, it looks like AMG is going to turn the performance dial up another notch.

    link title

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The flat spot is unfortunate, however. Did they say if it's due to the way that tranny is so low geared in the first two gears and then has to ramp up from there? That would make sense to me.

    They said something like the engine doesn't have any oomph until 3500 rpm and the first gear isn't short enough. Kinda surprising since C&D almost always beats manufacturer 0-60 times.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Oh AMG is going for all out sport now it seems when it comes to chassis dynamics. The Black Series version of the SLK55 is few pounds lighter than stock and has 400hp instead of 362hp, but the problem is the price for this track-day special, something over 100K. Limited production is an understatement. The packages you've linked were available on the outgoing E55, CLS55 and last year's SLK55 and SL55 too. This is what AMG should be doing, not making AMG versions of the R-Class, though Edmunds seems to love the R63 and R-Class in general if their long-term report on their R500 is anything to go by.

    M
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    "Jaguar, let's see: First off, take the X and S-Type's out back and put them out of their misery. DO NOT USE A FORD CLONE PRODUCT, as is the case with the X's Mondeo, and the S' Lincoln LS/Ford T-Bird."

    I hear this all the time, and I don't know why this misinfo continues to be proffered. The S, LS and T-Bird share a platform, but it's the best platform that was built in the day. The poor S-type gets denigrated because it lent its platform to a Lincoln and a Thunderbird coupe. Jag still built their engine differently than the Lincoln &
    Thunderbird, so that doesn't make the S-type a Ford. Jag built the engine for all of them, theirs is just better than the other two.

    The Mondeo is a great car. Europe loves it still. Making it an entry level Jag wasn't a big reach. If you drove it, you'd say, "Hey, this feels like a Jag, it drives like a Jag, and it smells like a Jag, for $30,000!" I've driven one. It's the cheap Jag for sure, but it's definitely a Jag. Could they do better? Not for that price. But people would be happier with it if it were all designed in Coventry from the ground up.
    But hey, I'm betting if they did, it wouldn't be as dependable as the X or the S is right now.... Ford has done good things for Jaguar, including keep it alive. It's sad they never made a buck on it.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Still got some Jaguar in your blood eh?

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    but it's the best platform that was built in the day. The poor S-type gets denigrated because it lent its platform to a Lincoln and a Thunderbird coupe.

    When it was new DEW98 was average at best. If you are implying that it was a better platform than the '97 5 series, you're definitely mistaken. Perhaps sharing the AJ-V8 and platform with Lincoln was a mistake. The fact that its now being used on the Mustang certainly doesn't help its prestige.

    The Mondeo is a great car. Europe loves it still. Making it an entry level Jag wasn't a big reach. If you drove it, you'd say, "Hey, this feels like a Jag, it drives like a Jag, and it smells like a Jag, for $30,000!" I've driven one. It's the cheap Jag for sure, but it's definitely a Jag. Could they do better? Not for that price.

    Wrong wrong wrong. The Mondeo is a perfectly fine car, sure. It should never have been turned into a Jag, however. M-B could probably cut the build cost of a C-class in half if they used a Chrysler Sebring as a base. How do you think people would react to that? A Jaguar is not FWD. I've driven the X-type. No, it doesn't feel like a Jag. No, it doesn't drive like a Jag, and no, it doesn't even smell like a Jag. I've owned Jags with Connolly leather, I know what real Jags feel and smell like.

    Yes, they could've done a lot better, even for that price. The X-type was originally supposed to hit in 2004. Instead they opted on a sloppy rush job. Quality of the initial run of cars was absolutely horrid. The warmed over Duratec engines were absolutely no match for the European competition, and the AWD system is about as crude as they come. The $30-40K entry lux market is the toughest gun fight in the luxury biz. Jaguar brought a rusty butter knife, and they paid for it.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The $30-40K entry lux market is the toughest gun fight in the luxury biz. Jaguar brought a rusty butter knife, and they paid for it.

    Hilarious LG!

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I also don't think life support cash infusions qualifies as "good things for the brand". Jaguar is giving cars away with enormous incentives, its resale values are laughable, and all of the new dealers that signed on for the "200,000 cars a year Jag" are either becoming glorified used car lots\service stations, or going out of business. Bang up job, Ford.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yeah the situation is pretty bad right now. Most of the Jaguar dealers here have brand new facilities. Some of them are joined with other brands and some aren't. Those that aren't are stacked with used cars from all brands.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Ford doesn't know what it wants to do with its PAG group. Now it is saying that Aston-Martin is for sale. I guess no one wanted Jaguar or Jaguar+Land Rover. Prestige wise they'd be nuts to sell Aston-Martin IMO, the brand is finally on it's feet and selling/bulding more than 90 cars a year. Business wise I guess it makes sense because they could likely get a pretty penny for Aston-Martin right now. What next selling Volvo?

    It gets better, BMW is supposedly interested in buying Aston-Martin. Aston would make a perfect fit in the BMW Group IMO. Aston would fit in neatly between BMW and Rolls-Royce which is sizeable gap. There would be no overlap between BMW and Aston or Aston and Rolls. BMW could bring Aston's quality up to BMW's level and give Aston some help in the engine room, the V12 needs a power boost and the V8 in Vantage could be replaced with a M designed V8. This could work.

    I can only imagine the mood at the highest, most secretive levels at Dearborn - complete and utter panic. Ford is brainstorm and crunching numbers like mad to see what they can get for this and what they can get for that.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Avg. Displacement Across the Lineup
    5.90 Liters MB


    hahahahaha. You've got to question the accuracy of this guy's calculations.
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    The new 300 will use the new E platform.

    Just wait and see. This is from an insider in Auburn Hills, MI. They have to do it to save money.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,896
    I agree that this should be an easy point to grasp. They are similar because they are both at the top concerning excellent practices, etc. Others are trying to catch up.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,896
    Tag, in addition to all your other accomplishments, I see that you are now an expert on engine design. WOW. Lexus should be calling any second for more of your brilliant insights!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • I agree, there needs to be more differentiation and distinction between the brands, Honda/Acura suffers it too although my TSX does look different enough from an Accord both exterior/interior wise to satisfy me.

    Lexus/Toyota's gotten better over the years at increasing the gap between the two but it's clear to see the resemblance between Avalon's and LS's
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    The first driving impression we gained at Acura’s press launch of its brand-new 2007 MDX in western Pennsylvania wasn’t on the road. It was on a track. And so confident was Acura in the dynamic talents of its new 7-passenger crossover ute, it brought along a trio of competitors, including the Porsche Cayenne V-6, the BMW X5 4.4i and the Volvo XC90 V-8.

    How did it do? Beautifully, honestly, trouncing the Volvo, out-gunning the fat Cayenne and nearly matching the X5 in the fun-to-drive arena. Most telling was its behavior in transitory moves under full throttle. That’s when Acura’s sophisticated, full-time Super-Handling All-Wheel Drive (SH-AWD) system—which varies torque distribution not only from front to rear, but from one rear wheel to the other, depending on traction conditions—showed off its talents most clearly. With the MDX’s optional active dampers calming body motions, it felt as if the hand of God was cupped on the rear bumper, scooting the car through every curve. There was never any sort of compromise of stability or traction. Just confident, high-speed, high-thrill curve carving. Brilliant.

    ....it appears that this new vehicle is something even ardent car-lovers like us could enjoy.


    article

    I like it except for the fake wood.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    I know...how about 4.2L for Audi…they must sell a lot of W12’s.

    I think this guy (sitting in his parents basement) sometimes invents information so he’ll have fresh content (fresh but inaccurate)

    I think…that he just added up the sizes sold for each type of model…then divided by the models…that it is not based on sales.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Tag, in addition to all your other accomplishments, I see that you are now an expert on engine design. WOW. Lexus should be calling any second for more of your brilliant insights!

    Thanks for the sarcastic compliment, but which brilliant insights are you referring to? Are you suggesting that posting a link about engines was brilliant? Gimmee a break.

    I certainly want to take all the credit I can ;) (lol) . . . but in this case I am not sure what the heck you are talking about.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    It gets better, BMW is supposedly interested in buying Aston-Martin. Aston would make a perfect fit in the BMW Group IMO. Aston would fit in neatly between BMW and Rolls-Royce which is sizeable gap. There would be no overlap between BMW and Aston or Aston and Rolls. BMW could bring Aston's quality up to BMW's level and give Aston some help in the engine room, the V12 needs a power boost and the V8 in Vantage could be replaced with a M designed V8. This could work.

    It wouldn't just work, I think it would be the best Aston Martin ever. BMW could do for Aston what Audi has done for Lambo. The M3's V8 already has more horsepower than the V8 Vantage. If they used that as a base, 480hp+ wouldn't be a problem, which would make it the 911 fighter it was supposed to be.
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