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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • hmm, I thought crunching numbers on cars that you do not own is your favorite sport ;-) If I had $100k to spend on a full size sedan and revel in its sportiness (talk about trying to squeeze blood out of a rock), I'd be very happy too.
  • I think you missed the point. Please re-read my previous post, leave out Lexus, and just consider Audi vs. MB if you wish:

    S8/AMG sales do not matter if we are discussing A8 vs. S class sales because the sport division sales numbers are miniscule compared to the regular lines; S8 vs. AMG sales do matter if we are talking about S8 and AMG sales. Clear now?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    hmm, I thought crunching numbers on cars that you do not own is your favorite sport

    Nope, and especially not the irrelevant kind comparing the Maser to a Honda Accord.

    M
  • No I don't know what "real" Ferrari fans say about Ferrari V8s? Can't be anything negative since the F430 and the F360 before it outsells any other Ferrari model at the time.

    The feeling must be the same as what "real" MB fans think of C and A classes, and "real" Porsche fans thought of 924/944, Boxster and Cayenne. The latter also outsells/outsold all other models among the respective brands.
  • Accord is simply the base-line benchmark for sedans.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    S8/AMG sales do not matter if we are discussing A8 vs. S class sales because the sport division sales numbers are miniscule compared to the regular lines; S8 vs. AMG sales do matter if we are talking about S8 and AMG sales. Clear now?

    I see what you're saying, but I disagree because these cars are what make up the S-Class or the A8 range. They're included when the these companies count the sales for the month/year etc. They shouldn't be left out just because Lexus doesn't have anything to compete in that space.

    Besides that, we weren't talking about sales. We were talking about your claim that all these cars were "land yachts", then since they all aren't you then veered off into the endless stuff about sales as a distraction.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well with the A-Class I feel that way myself, but not about the C-Class. It is just as much a "Mercedes" as anything else they make.

    I haven't see anyone say that about a F430 or F355 or even the 348 Ferrari so I don't buy that one. One of the most recent, but legendary Ferraris of all time (the F40) was a V8. No one complained about it.

    M
  • The whole point about them mattering little is because including or excluding them does not affect the sales ranking in the main line tallies.
  • "I haven't see anyone say that about a F430 or F355 or even the 348 Ferrari so I don't buy that one."

    You can buy whatever your money allows you. If you have not seen/heard of the put-downs on V8 Ferraris, well you have not been around real Ferrari fans long enough.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The whole point about them mattering little is because including or excluding them does not affect the sales ranking in the main line tallies.

    Unless you have the breakout for the S-Class sales every year you don't know that for sure. This year the S-Class is running neck and neck with the 7-Series so every unit sold counts and will deterimine the #2 sales spot in this class behind the LS430.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You can buy whatever your money allows you. If you have not seen/heard of the put-downs on V8 Ferraris, well you have not been around real Ferrari fans long enough.

    Well I guess not because the ones that frequent the Sports Car board have nothing but praise for the F430. Its the 612 Scagletti that has the put-downs and lackluster following.

    Whatever "real" Ferrari fans thought of those older models you mentioned they must not think that of the F430 now because the car is so hot. Real Porsche folks walked away from the 944/968 and 928 models in droves, unlike the Ferrari 360 Modena and F430.

    M
  • That must be why most Ferrari's own engineers drive V12 Ferraris not V8's. Give it a few years, 360 and 430 will be just as old hat as 308. Until they put a turbo charger in like the F40, the V8's are always short on torque compared to the V12's; Ferrari turbo . . . hahaha you don't want to be the owner unless you own a mechnics garage first. Generic wanna-have sportcar fans drool after the V8's because that's the closest Ferrari that they can have.
  • I see what you are getting at. I'm not interested in S vs. 7 sales details though; both are way behind LS sales as to make the AMG addition entirely irrelevent.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well I have no idea what Ferrari's engineers drive. I'm sure that if I worked for any of these companies I'd drive the top of the line model too, but not because the less-expensive ones are crappy either.

    I doubt Ferrari owners are troubled by high maintenance bills on what was an outrageouly expensive car in the first place. If they are they then can't truly "afford" the car in the first place.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I see what you are getting at. I'm not interested in S vs. 7 sales details though; both are way behind LS sales as to make the AMG addition entirely irrelevent.

    I think I already acknowledged that no matter what either BMW or MB sells in this segment the LS430 will be #1 in sales.

    M
  • No car holds onto MSRP. Discounting around 10% from MSRP towards model end is nothing unusual. "Heavy Discounting" means discounting significantly below invoice price thanks to manufacturer subsidies.

    The only thing that differs from brand to brand is how the maker controls the supply of model at the end. Some will try to flood the market with units (even add models like MB did) and others will cut production to keep from having to resort to discounting.

    That must how Lexus achieves #1 in total sales volume: by cutting back on production. What's that world again? "Bull"?

    As to why I excused Lexus for the previous IS and GS in the later model year poor sales, well, I never took MB to task for poor hatchback sales towards the end of the run either; that's simply not their core competence. Manufacturers are allowed to experiment once in a while. At least the sales on both the previous GS ans IS were reasonably good at the beginning, unlike the current flopping R-class at MB.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    That must how Lexus achieves #1 in total sales volume: by cutting back on production. What's that world again? "Bull"?

    Once again, you're trying to link one statement to something entirely different, and the two have nothing to do with each other. What I said was that when a specific model is in decline Lexus will slow down production to keep from having to resort to heavy discounting. One model like the LS being in decline isn't going to matter to Lexus' overall sales picture this year when they have a new IS and GS to keep sales going strong. I know you know this.

    Oh the models that will keep Lexus on top this year, you know the GS that you claim whose sales aren't important to Lexus. Saying the GS or IS' sales aren't important to Lexus is the only bull I've read here lately.

    As to why I excused Lexus for the previous IS and GS in the later model year poor sales, well, I never took MB to task for poor hatchback sales towards the end of the run either; that's simply not their core competence. Manufacturers are allowed to experiment once in a while. At least the sales on both the previous GS ans IS were reasonably good at the beginning, unlike the current flopping R-class at MB.

    Problem is that the 1998 GS was NOT an experiment. It was a second generation car. Now if you can excuse the first generation IS300 for being a flop then you can excuse the R-Class also. The difference with the R-Class is that it is only a few months old, to early to know whether or not it will ever be a success.

    M
  • Most BMW engineers actually drive 3's and 5's, not 7's.

    Ferrari's are often owned by businesses for business purposes, so reasonable maintenance bill is highly desirable. The maintenance bill on the F40 turbo was a legend in itself.
  • GS and IS, even in their best years, could not begin to compare to ES and RX sales. The same can not be said of E class. That's why GS and IS in their waning years was not nearly as significant the decline of E class. BTW, the first generation GS300 was quite a different animal from the GS that we know since 1998.

    LS still outsells 7 and S even in this model wind-down that you are alleging. Also, isn't proper managing of production and maintain brand/model prestige what a luxury marque maker supposed to do? Flooding the market with cars that need heavy discount does not jive well with maintaining marque value.

    IS300 actually did quite well in the first couple model years. There was no heavy discounting in the first couple model years like what's available on R-class today, within a few short months after introduction.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    GS and IS, even in their best years, could not begin to compare to ES and RX sales. The same can not be said of E class. That's why GS and IS in their waning years was nearly as significant the decline of E class.

    It will next time they do since they GS and now IS are big contributers to Lexus' sales now. You won't be able to fall back on this excuse if and when they start to decline in a few years. The E-Class' decline was to be expected in the face of 5 freshly minted competitors! Same thing happened with the previous GS, only thing different is the timing and the numbers of new competitors in the last 12-18 months.

    We all know what one of the main reasons they LS430 outsells the rest of the class is, but of course you'll just say price doesn't matter since everyone can lease so I'm done with that.

    Also, isn't proper managing of production and maintain brand/model prestige what a luxury marque maker supposed to do? Flooding the market with cars that need heavy discount does not jive well with maintaining marque value.

    Yes it is. Finally something I can agree with. Why they added the S350 this year is beyond me since there won't be a 2007 S350 version of the new S-Class. I guess they didn't want to drop the sales title to the 7-Series in the final year of the W220 production.

    IS300 actually did quite well in the first couple model years. There was no heavy discounting in the first couple model years like what's available on R-class today, within a few short months after introduction.

    Yeah sure, quite well compared to what? Not the 3-Series or any other cars it targeted. Lexus simply deciding to let the car die instead of discounting is their choice. I think the truth of the matter is that even with discounts no one wanted the previous generation IS300. It wasn't like they held it at MSRP and settled for small sales. They discounted the thing and it still didn't move! Like I said, the verdict is still out on the R-Class, being a few months old.

    BTW, the first generation GS300 was quite a different animal from the GS that we know since 1998.

    Excuses, excuses. The 1993 GS300 is much like the 2006 GS300, slow. The only difference/addition to the GS lineup since the beginning is the addition of a V8, the GS400 and then GS430, which very few people bought during the 1998-2005 model's production run.

    M
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