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High End Luxury Cars

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  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    it will be Mercedes, BMW and Audi in that order that will feel the impact of the LS460

    Don't know about Audi, since they are so miniscule in this country anyway, but I do agree that MB should prove more affected than BMW, since despite an effort (and imho some success) to be a bit more sporty, the LS remains closer in character to the S than to the 7.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Thanks for explaining a bicycle to me.

    Anyway, if the LS "needs to rev" it only becomes relevant, or a demerit, if the car has to get out of character (NVH) to perform the task.

    That would be rather difficult, since most critics complain the LS is too "soulless" as a driving companion.

    This is just another recourse for haters, trying to keep Lexus down. Side-stepping the innovation of the 8th speed, to attack the "need" for two low gears.

    The current LS hits 60 in less than 6 seconds, and is as fast as the S500 was, but the Next LS will do it even faster, but will be lesser for having to "rev"?

    Oh, the desperation. :sick:

    I'm awaiting a true comparison tests, or my own comparison at the "Taste of Lexus" event in October, to get a sound judgement on the ascention of the Next LS.

    DrFill
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I love wagons so much that I bought one(in case nobody has ever read my posts before I own a BMW 530xi Touring).

    But I dont know what MB is thinking with the vehicle below? It is a CLS grafted on a E Class wagon. Does that mean we will we be seeing a CLS Touring wagon? Makes no sense to me expecially with AMG versions of the E Class wagon.

    Autospies Link

    image
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Thanks for explaining a bicycle to me.

    lol . . . I was only referring to the gears. Didn't mean to be disrespectful.

    This is just another recourse for haters, trying to keep Lexus down. Side-stepping the innovation of the 8th speed, to attack the "need" for two low gears.

    Well, if you re-read my post or any of my other posts that relate to this, I do not believe I have expressed any hate, nor did I "attack" the "need" for the two low gears. As we ultimately look into every aspect of these HELM vehicles, particularly the new ones, it is inevitable that we will understand the different natures of the different beasts.

    With all due respect, what is so "innovative" about adding yet one more speed to a transmission anyway?

    If you see me being "hateful", you can call me on it, how's that sound? I am more interested in taking a close look at these vehicles for what they are and aren't, than generating any hateful spins regarding these vehicles. How 'bout you?

    :)

    TagMan
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    I wish we'd drop all the categorizations of other people like "haters" - it's inflammatory and gets us nowhere good in a meaningful conversation. People are certainly entitled to express differing opinions and don't need to be called "haters" because they did so.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    Superfluous.

    Maybe they intend to drop the E-wagon?

    On second glance, that car has the E-class taillights. Must be a hack job (excellently executed) somebody put together.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Desperation??

    It seems that it may be a few of the folks on your team that are desperate. Why do you have to speculate on the 8-speed tranny that only last yeat was seen as frivilous when MB put out the 7-G.? How does the 8-Speed erase the needless 7 speed that was deemed overkill?

    And to boot, why the need to brag on the handling/perf. package that Lexus is "supposed" to have this go 'round? I thought that LS buyers didn't care about those types of things? Hopefully this time around they won't leave these laughable attempts on the docks in Huro, Japan.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    MB has always been conservative with the speeds of their cars, just like EVERY German car company.

    The 0-60 in 5.1 secs has been recorded by more than five entities, so this is not something that is made up. Take for instance my 5000 pound S600 that's on the way. MB has it getting to 60 in 4.6 secs. Well the model tested in MotoCar goes to 60 in 4 secs flat, the same the car I tested at the dealership.

    The need for the LS to have 8 cogs in solely on attempt to (1) one up the supposed too-much 7-G, and (2) keep the car well in it's rev range to try and keep up with the MB's and BMW's. No matter how you cut it, the 4.6L has to be wrung out just to crack out 6.0 secs to 60. There is no replacement for displacement.

    Do you know for a fact that the LS will have more room than the S-Class. For sure the LWB may prove a bit more roomy than a S, but it won't outshine a 750iL and definetely not a A8L in any dimension. The S's trunk however, is 23 cu.ft, the largest in the segment. I don' think Lexus will be topping that, even with the Bangle-esque trunk.

    BTW: Why the need to pit a less powerful S450 against the S550 power matching LS460? Oh, just like that test when a S430 was pitted against the LS430? That may be the only time a LS outpaces a S550, and barely then. Keep your money, you'll need it to pay for the LS600hL.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Sep 06, 2006 (Detroit Free Press - McClatchy-Tribune Business News via COMTEX) -- The newly named chief executive officer Allan Mually of Ford Motor Co. drives a Lexus LS 430, the flagship luxury sedan from Toyota Motor Corp. that he unabashedly says he purchased because "it's the finest car in the world."

    I have a strong feeling that Allan Mually is an Edmunds member. In fact I can almost swear that I recently had a heated debate with him in this forum . ;)
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    The S's trunk however, is 23 cu.ft, the largest in the segment.

    MB's website puts it at 16.3 cu ft, and the EPA puts it at 16.

    Do you know for a fact that the LS will have more room than the S-Class. For sure the LWB may prove a bit more roomy than a S, but it won't outshine a 750iL and definetely not a A8L in any dimension.

    Kind of typical germancarfan thinking, just blithely assuming that the Germans are on top in all respects. And no, I don't know for a fact re the LS460, which is why I used the term "likely" in my original post. Why is it likely? EPA data here show the following:

    interior / trunk / total cu ft

    2007 S550 109 16 125
    2006 750li 105 18 123
    2006 A8 L 107 15 122
    2006 LS430 107 16 123
    2007 LS460L ??? 18* ??? (*Lexus data, reported as being measured with EPA methodology)

    So the old LS, despite being SWB, is already roomier (total cu ft) than the A8 L and as roomy as the 750Li. It doesn't take alot of imagination to believe that with an extra 5 in of legroom, the LS460L will be, as I stated, likely at least as roomy as the S550, despite being lighter in weight.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    And so now it takes the EPA to back up what you think Lexus is supposed to be?? Since when has the EPA been correct on anything, especially the horridly incorrect fuel econ numbers? If you want to put up a valid argument, please use a credible source. For instance, they say the Hyundai Elantra has more room inside than a Honda Accord. Where??

    As to the MB's trunk, that is with rear a/c and 4 passenger seating with the twin buckets in rear, which reduces trunk capacity. Please post the standard dimensions next time as this has proven to be a less effective way of disproving ones point, typical Toyota likeliness.

    Just so you know, the LS430 is not as roomy as any of the LWB models of the cars in it's class. The Audi has the rear seat of a limo, and the 750iL's cabin is so cavernous that it's often called "too big". This, again, is the wishful thinking of someone who is disingeneuously trying to prove a point. Please don't bring a butter knife to a machete match. This works better on the LS threads that you frequent.
  • I agree with you, the new LS should be roomier than any of the germans yet more nimble.

    I think LS 460 has the germans beat in every respect including handling.

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_id=3902
  • So far from the reviews it seems like the LS 460 is as fast or faster than S550 and much smoother.

    WHo cares about gears and torque settings. So long as it is smoother and faster thats what matters.

    I suspect that if Lexus was using a 5.5 L engine and mercedes was using 4.6L, then 4.6L would be good and 5.5L would be bad.

    Talk about honesty!
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,922
    The EPA is not always right but in this case I think I will take their word over yours. At least they are right some of the time.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    No one is trying to put the LS460 down because it has to rev to make power and match the acceleration of the S550, nor is anyone here implying that it going to be loud when doing so. We all know Lexus has never built a "loud" car and they never will.

    The point is that just because 2 cars have similar hp ratings doesn't mean they are equal. It seems to me that unless you really give the LS460 the boot it won't give the feeling of power that a S550 does, thats all.

    What creates the fallout here is just what BH mentioned. When MB came out with their 7-speed it was deemed pointless and matterless and just a show of needless engineering and now that Lexus is going the same route of more gears for whatever reasons it is supposed to be hailed some type of gift-to-the-automobile innovation.

    Truth of the matter is, except for some engine-related technologies, all of the "advancements" the LS460 brings to the table are based on existing technologies and/or the improvement of them by adding a previously unavailable feature. Some of, well no most of them done by MB a few years ago or last year with the new S and some from Toyota's own Prius.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    please use a credible source

    When it comes to measuring interior and cargo space, I'd prefer to rely on a consistently applied quantitative methodology such as specified by EPA, rather than hearsay and subjective opinion such as 'so cavernous that it's often called "too big"'.
  • Most of the technologies in LS 460 are original and unprecedented.

    None of them have been at mercedes before. Mercedes will be following what Lexus innovates today.

    Whether its inefficient engines, or safety technology, or driving dynamics, mercedes lacks and lags behind everywhere.

    Mercedes was using and is still using 3-valve technology in its engines. Even Hyundai has moved to four.

    That shows how far behind mercedes is.

    First mercedes should match hyundai and then we will talk about its dreams of matching lexus, if ever.

    When LS 460 was introduced, S550 became obsolete that very day. A stunning achievement for Lexus. But I am not surprised. Lexus has always been years ahead of mercedes anyway.

    What mercedes could not achieve in 120 years, Lexus achieved in less than 17.

    Hyundai refused to collaborate with daimler as they think its below their dignity.
  • Well said. Thats the best way to bust myths about germans.

    One day I will write a book on german myths.

    1. Superior technology
    2. better handling: Thats another myth
  • warthogwarthog Posts: 216
    This discussion has descended to elementary school levels. Is there anyone on earth who buys an LS, or an S, or a 7, who cares about a 0.1 sec difference in 0-60? When is the last time you saw an S500 square off against an LS430 at the local stoplight?

    Does anyone, more than 12 years old, care whether the slushbox has 6 or 7 or 8 gears, except to the extent it affects the actual driving experience?

    And no one here, so far as I can tell, has actually driven either the new LS or S! But, by damn, my adopted marque is better than yours because I say so.

    I can't believe you guys.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    The number of valves hardly seperates low-tech from high-tech. Mercedes-Benz makes some of the best engines in the worlds, so does Toyota/Lexus be it with 3 valves or 4.
  • I am not sure what your deifnition of best engines is, but in my book mercedes makes the worst engines:

    1. Worst in class fuel economy
    2. lacking behind in smoothness. I test drove S550 and I am not impressed. Looking forward to the new LS.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The navigation system, equipped with Clear Channel’s award-winning traffic service, will become available as early as mid-September making BMW of North America the first U.S. auto manufacturer to offer real time traffic as a standard, lifetime service feature on navigation-equipped vehicles.

    ClearChannel
  • I'm in So Cal on business and it's S Class R Us out here. I counted about 15 S550's today alone.
    It's still the car to be seen in in Beverly Hills and the new one seems to be ubiquitous.
    Also, more Bentley per square mile than any other place I've been to. Gotta love it.
  • guestguest Posts: 774
    Didn't mean to imply you are a "hater", just that you were using the "hater" argument.

    PHENOMENAL WORD (the "h" word), even doh the Thought Police "h" it! :P

    You are still kinda kool with me.

    Sometimes. :P

    The only people who deride the 8-speed are people with a vested interest in the LS being seen as a step below the Germans.

    And let me state for the record, I don't hate the Germans, the S550, or even the "Internationally-known" Audi A8 (Hemi). :)

    I am just showing how the LS is, at worst, easily holding it's own against the ANY luxury sedan.

    If someone is making a truly superior car, I haven't seen it yet, and would like to at my earliest convenience.

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Leader of the "Lexus Can't School of Technology".

    Now when Lexus DOES innovate, what do we have to say?

    I don't know exactly who you are referring to, but I haven't downplayed the 7-speed in the E/S-Class, nor Mercedes overall.

    Mercedes makes a great acronym! They can make all sorts of systems and body control systems, and safety features, and they have helped raise the state-of-the-art. Not gonna dispute that.

    Lexus' Innovation is in changing the rules of the game. Now things like Dependability studies, and ergonomics, and ride quality, and efficiency, and NVH are what makes a luxury car special to many owners.

    The buying experience, the service experience, the ownership experience.

    These are Lexus' true "Innovations".

    And these have changed how Americans view luxury cars. The things you don't see on the window sticker.

    And Mercedes is studying this playbook. Hard.

    And both companies are better due to the other's strengths. They have both learned from success.

    Personally, I believe the S550 has met it's match in the Next LS.

    And that "feeling of power" of which you speak, I believe that's called "torque". ;)

    370 lb. ft should be more than enough.

    Thank You.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    If someone is making a truly superior car, I haven't seen it yet, and would like to at my earliest convenience.

    I get your point, but . . .

    The S600 comes to mind, as does the S65 AMG. I'll bet you that they are truly fantastic cars that have more power, performance, luxury and style all rolled together than just about anything else out there.

    Also . . . I definately expect the LS600hL will be a special car. As you know, I have suspected that it might be the first and only LS that will spark my interest. I expect it to be an ultimate HELM, of sorts, and certainly an exclusive vehicle.

    But the standard LS460? Sure, it's gonna be a nice car, you know, but how excited can one get over something like that?

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    And that "feeling of power" of which you speak, I believe that's called "torque".

    370 lb. ft should be more than enough.


    Whoa! This is where you do yourself no favors. The LS460 may have credentials, but when it comes to power and torque, the S550 has 391 lb-ft , and at a mere 2,800 rpm. The engine is barely turning, and yet it delivers that torque. The LS460 is no match for this.

    The LS460 is efficient, though, considering it's reasonable acceleration and good fuel economy, and THAT is where you should be bragging, IMO. Credit where credit is due, right Doc?

    BTW, your OK in my book . . . on occasion. ;)

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Guy your post is so far off in left-field I honestly don't think it is worth debating.

    Most of the technologies in LS 460 are original and unprecedented.

    If you read my original post on this matter you will see where I said that Lexus' engine technology is where they've truly innovated. Specifically their direct injection, and electronic valve control. Now as far as the rest of the "technologies" on the LS640, please oh please tell me what they've done that wasn't present in some form or another in a Mercedes before. Everything from their rear-impact safety system to their self-adjusting cruise control is either on the S550 or some version thereof. Now if you have proof otherwise I'd love to see it.

    Whether its inefficient engines, or safety technology, or driving dynamics, mercedes lacks and lags behind everywhere.

    Nonsense and the part the reall dubunks this is the part about dynamics. The previous LS430 of which I've driven drove like a barge and the previous S-Class doesn't. Period. Mercedes lagging Lexus in safety technology when Lexus can't even give their 60K+ convertible the same roll-over technology a 20K VW New Beetle has along with every other German convertible on the market. Lexus didn't introduce anything similar to Mercedes pre-safe until years later, yet Mercedes lags? Yeah only when looking through Lexus provided glasses.

    When LS 460 was introduced, S550 became obsolete that very day. A stunning achievement for Lexus. But I am not surprised. Lexus has always been years ahead of mercedes anyway.

    What mercedes could not achieve in 120 years, Lexus achieved in less than 17.

    Hyundai refused to collaborate with daimler as they think its below their dignity.


    My mistake I thought you had a logical argument, not a bunch brand-hate driven nonsense. Not even the most jaded Lexus fan will go for this set.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Lexus' Innovation is in changing the rules of the game. Now things like Dependability studies, and ergonomics, and ride quality, and efficiency, and NVH are what makes a luxury car special to many owners.

    The buying experience, the service experience, the ownership experience.

    These are Lexus' true "Innovations".
    And these have changed how Americans view luxury cars. The things you don't see on the window sticker.

    And Mercedes is studying this playbook. Hard.

    And both companies are better due to the other's strengths. They have both learned from success.


    Ok, I'll go for that because it is true. Service thy name is Lexus, though these aren't traditional or conventional innovations, but they have shaped the industry. Also, by that same token there are things about a Mercedes that aren't obvious either until after you experience one, also not part of the window sticker. No amount of studies or surveys will convey this which is why Mercedes still has their position despite Lexus' best efforts.

    And that "feeling of power" of which you speak, I believe that's called "torque".

    370 lb. ft should be more than enough.


    You're not getting the point doc. The point is that the LS460's smaller V8 has to work for that torque it is farther up on the dial than Mercedes' is hence the need for 8 gears to get the LS460 to match the acceleration of the S550.

    I see your fellow Lexus fans are tearing the C&D review apart, but this is the same group that agreed with C&D each and everytime they put the LS430 over the competition. Touted the C&D comparo's as every turn, but now C&D is clueless and/or has something personal against Lexus. Hilarious!

    M
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    My point exactly Merc. C&D was the "it" mag when they pitted it against the S430, and it won. I can never forget it as it comes up on topic here at least once a month.

    But now the tables have turned. Too tall gearing? Same boring wallow body motions? Not as quiet as before? Is this a Lexus? These are all of the things they said.

    Even the R/T issue has said that the LS460 Standard is in no comparison to it's competition in terms of room and overall feel. So much for everyone loving Lexus.
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