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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Merc… SUV talk and pics on a Saturday night?
    It must be January cabin fever.


    No it was last night's drunken activities. ;)

    Plus the night is still young. I really intended to answer an email, but couldn't help but peek in here.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    When you see it, I'll bet it has "stature" and "presence", and that it will look and feel "substantial".

    I hope so. I plan to be standing next to it one week from today!

    Here is the full article on the GL: GL-CLass

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    You may want to look up on what it means to be efficient in modern manufacturing. Toyota's claim to fame is just-in-time production method. That also means not lining up more suppliers than one has to. It is actually a lot easier for an "inefficient" manufacturer like GM with gobs of excess capacity to incrase production on the fly than for an "efficient" manufacturer to expand production.

    Given this manufacturing technical reality, Toyota's strategy of testing waters with Gen1 product, and attempt to take over with Gen2 or Gen3 (it took Gen3 for Toyota to be a dominant player in the Minivan market) is a very sound approach.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The new LS looks more like the 5 in profile ...

    Lexus is definately after BMW this time around. The first LS was a shot at what is now the PREVIOUS Mercedes S-Class and PREVIOUS E-Class styling, very boxy and similar design lines.

    Lexus, with it's new LS and other models, is not after Mercedes as before. LEXUS IS NOW GOING AFTER BMW, and I'll say it again and again. LEXUS IS NOW GOING AFTER BMW. That's my take on it at this point.

    As I mentioned earlier, I also think that this is good for Mercedes, as it will maintain a distinguishing difference for Mercedes that will work in Mercedes' favor ultimately.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I know what it means, but none of that will ever convince me that Toyota couldn't have increased production on a hot product, if it became a hot product. Just in time production or not.

    I agree it is much easier for a company like GM to just crank up production, but by the same token it isn't impossible for Toyota to do it either. If they have a hit on their hands even Toyota will increase production, that is the bottom line. Toyota could have and would have increased production on the first GS and IS models if they demand was there.

    The first generation Prius and hybrids in general require a lot more infastructure to produce so I can see where the numbers might not have worked on the first generation car. However on the first generation IS and GS, ain't buying it for a min. They are regular cars, especially the first generation IS.

    Just in time means that if the demand was there Toyota would have supplied it just like they do with any of their other products.

    M
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The Lexus IS edition #1 was a dud and the prior generations of the Lexus GS were duds.

    Your focus on supply is what makes your JIT theory absoulutely worthless in explaining why the IS and GS were sales duds. Their failure was due to to demand not supply!
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Oh look at me. I'm sitting here thinking the 1998-2005 GS was a second generation car and it was in fact the third edition of the GS. NO excuse other than demand as to why it didn't sell well after 2000. Toyota had been producing the GS since 1993! Surely by then there wasn't a production line capacity issue when the car was redesigned with a V8 for 1998, surely Toyota had production strategies down pat by then.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    You were the one the compared the two cars so it was your absurdity to begin with.

    There's nothing wrong with comparing the production curve of any two car models. Just don't compare the first model year of one car with the winding down year of another, like what you were trying to do . . . that would be intellectually dishonest because we both know that cars sell much better in the early parts of its procution cycle.

    Tell it to the Lexus fans who regularly predict this and expect it to happen, in the case of Lexus vs the WORLD.

    Well, Lexus/Toyota has a pretty decent record of taking over what market segment it takes on in Gen2 or Gen3, cleaning clock with the previously dominant player. Look at the markets for family sedan, luxury sedan, luxury SUV, large sedan, minivan . . . every single one of them used to be dominated by someone else, Lexus/Toyota came from the status of nobody and grew to the dominant player. When was the last time MB newly conqured any market segment? 1970/80's displacing Cadillac?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Exactly! I have never heard anyone use a JIT argument in order to justify a failure in demand.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    The Lexus IS edition #1 was a dud and the prior generations of the Lexus GS were duds.

    Only if you compare IS alone to 3/C, or GS alone to 5/E. The reality is that IS and GS are merely ways to sell more ES in the grand scheme of things! ES/IS clobbers 3/C in the $30+k segment entry luxury market; ES/GS clobbers 5/E in the mid-size luxury car market.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    IS and GS production targets were set low because Lexus already has a winner in the mid-size luxury car selling for about $35k, the ES! IS and GS are just sales expansions from a very healthy dominance in the mainstream ES. If you compare 330i alone to IS, and 540i alone to GS (okay, perhaps 530i to GS300, but certainly not the bulk of 5 series 525i, which really competes against ES300/330 for people who want a mid-size luxury car), the IS and GS sales were not bad at all until the very tail end of a production run, which as we know all models suffer.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    There is no failure in demand. The demand for what would be the Lexus equivalent of 325i, 525i are already picked up by ES300/330. IS and GS are just targetting would-be buyers of 330, 540i etc..
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    ES/IS clobbers 3/C in the $30+k segment entry luxury market; ES/GS clobbers 5/E in the mid-size luxury car market.

    :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:

    That argument makes no sense whatsoever. The Lexus ES and IS are two different platforms that compete with different types of vehicles altogether.

    What makes even less sense is your comparison of a Lexus ES with a BMW 5 series or a MB E . That is an argument not even worth responding to :lemon:

    I am out of here. Good night.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Look forward to hearing your feedback after the show. I'm guessing you might take a short flight from Chicago to Detroit? Anyway, thanks for the link. I enjoyed it.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    What exactly would be BMW's competition to ES? if it's not 325i and 525i?? For MB, C240, C280, E320, E350? What exactly would be BMW and MB's competitive offerings if not those lower-end mainstream models of 3/5/C/E ??
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    There's nothing wrong with comparing the production curve of any two car models. Just don't compare the first model year of one car with the winding down year of another, like what you were trying to do . . . that would be intellectually dishonest because we both know that cars sell much better in the early parts of its procution cycle.

    Again, you brought up the comparo between the CLS and IS/GS. However there is something wrong with this comparo because you said that the IS and GS were successful if we're going by the 14K units the CLS sold. This is just that, dishonest because the CLS costs way more than a GS and nearly double the first generation IS. Secondly IN THEIR SEGMENTS the IS and GS didn't do squat in sales compared to their main competitors, BMW and Mercedes. The CLS doesn't really have an direct competitors.

    It is just that, dishonest for you to leave out the other factors in the sales of these three totally different vehicles.

    When was the last time MB newly conqured any market segment? 1970/80's displacing Cadillac?

    Well considering Mercedes the oldest carmaker around and new segments don't come along that often I'd say they've done pretty well to inpsire the creation of whole brands of synthetic cars with a copycat flagship to go along with it. Mercedes has proven itself time and time again over the years. Question is what segment has Lexus conqured? Lexus is the biggest wannabe in the automotive world, now switching their envy from Mercedes to BMW. I don't see anyone lining up to build a GS,LS,IS or ES. I do see Lexus trying to build a 3-Series, 5-Series, S-Class (in the past come 2007). I do see Jaguar, Porsche, and VW linig up to build a CLS competitor, not a GS competitor or a LS competitor. All Lexus has conqured is quality and reliability surveys (important enough) and the SUV/high-end-sedan segment IF you want simply look at sales. Other than that they are are the ultimate following machine because the IS,GS,ES haven't conqured squat.

    Like it or not Mercedes-Benz is still the trailblazer here. The CLS and R-Class success or not are new segments, one of which has a bunch of the competitors lining up to produce their version (CLS) and the other the jury is still out on.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I'm guessing you might take a short flight from Chicago to Detroit?

    Oh no, the 4-hour drive is much more fun.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    That argument makes no sense whatsoever. The Lexus ES and IS are two different platforms that compete with different types of vehicles altogether.

    What makes even less sense is your comparison of a Lexus ES with a BMW 5 series or a MB E . That is an argument not even worth responding to

    I am out of here. Good night.


    Exactly! Nothing but spinning gone out of control. I guess now I can lump CLK sales in with the C-Class and the CLS in the E-Class in order to jazz up the sales rhetoric. Funny how this lumping of the IS and ES helps out the previously non-existent sales of the IS just a few months ago. Lexus spinning and twisting at its best!

    M
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Must be a slow weekend... All these talk about IS, GS, Prius, etc... on a HELM board ??

    Despite the failures of the Gen1 IS, Gen1&2 GS to light a fire in their respective market sectors, Lexus increased market share YoY, until it became the #1 luxury auto maker in the NA market. Imagine if the IS and GS were important sector leaders, the margin of Lexus' success would have been enormous indeed. The truth is no company will have success in ALL its markets... So beating on the IS/GS pre 2005 is just a waste of time... This is history.

    Saw the new R-class wagon today in person. What an ugly POS, sorry ! My daughter called it a *whale* and I couldn't agree more. And wrt a GL class, in the days of low demand for SUV ... timing couldn't be worse for MB thinking it can buy market share with land yatch SUVs in 2006 ? Who is in charge in Stuttgart these days ?
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,662
    "Well considering Mercedes the oldest carmaker around and new segments don't come along that often I'd say they've done pretty well"

    I certainly don't want to get embroiled in this but MB and the Germans as a whole literally missed the biggest new segment in automotive history - SUV's. In fact because of this many here want to point out that only cars should be considered in a sales race even though we are still in a 50-50 market position. It shows you how silly discussions can get when people want to eliminate 50% of a market to prove their points.

    "Saw the new R-class wagon today in person."

    OAC - it's awful. Did you think funeral car when you saw it? I've seen one on the road so far and it looked liked it should be the lead car in a funeral procession.
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