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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    How were the steering and the brakes in the GS450h?
    That adaptive steering and the sensitive brakes in the GS430 were deal-breakers for me.


    Well to me on such a short handling course they felt normal, I'd have to drive the GS back to back with a 5-Series or something to be able to tell an immediate difference. I didn't use the brakes much if you know what I mean. ;) I didn't notice any grabbiness or an overly sensitve pedal though.

    They didn't have any competitor cars there this year for the IS and GS test drive, only the 7/S for the LS.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Okay. In the short amount of time given to you, which vehicle impressed you more, the GS450h or the LS460?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well of course the big event was driving the LS460L since I'd driven the GS before and the hybrid didn't really "feel" any different from the regular GS models.

    So I'd have to say the LS460L made the best impression. I'm not a fan of the GS' look regardless of how slick in operation it is.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Okay. Thanks for the interview! :)
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Merc

    Did you spend any time working the features of the cars? Is the COMAND better than Lexus' console set-up?

    Check the rear seat comfort of the 2 cars?

    You're difinitive statement on the LS' torque curve/tranny, please.

    Which car is quieter?

    Were there any features/idiosyncracies that made you pause when entering/starting the cars?

    The LS had the standard suspension, yes?

    As per my invitation, I am expecting to see an S550, 3-series, 5-series, and 750 when I roll next month. That will make or break the event for me, as that is what I was told to expect, and it will indicate the level of confidence I expect from Lexus.

    Greatness many times is defined by one's expectations. ;)

    DrFill
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I need to decide whether to bring the whole family, or just go myself. Last time I went to a Lexus event, they had arcade games and other kid stuff....did you notice anything like that at Chicago?
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,927
    Europhiles seem to be obsessed with the new LS 460. It has its own board you know. If that car is all you are going to discuss, why not do it over there.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • Yeah weird, My wife has an FX so when going for service I've had G35 keys thrown to me on two different occasions. Now taking in to consideration that it was a very short autocross track, and my first time through [of 2] I had a little to much steering input which will bind up a chassis a little [getting used to the track of course :P ] but instead of tail out, it was a fair amount of nose dive.
    I think it was a tire issue but I forgot to check. I wish I would have as my conspiracy theory tail is standing strait up.


    On another note, if we were discussing poor Audi commercials on this thread? I just saw a BMW one, same as Audi. X5 on mountain road--DTM race car--flower blooming--X5 on mountain road--DTM race car--flower blooming. Rinse, repeat.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Speaking of the X5, here is a funny video. Well, maybe not so funny for the guy who had to get out of the way.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    What's the difference where it's discussed? And it's not a question of Europhiles being "obsessed" with anything. The LS is new, and if anything, we're all interested in what's NEW.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Well at least many of us "Europhiles" are making a commitment to drive the new LS.
    I don't see any Lexus folks doing the same with MB, BMW or Audi vehicles.
    Sounds like we "Europhiles" are a lot more flexible than you give us credit for.

    HMMMM...
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Talk about "body lean." :surprise:
  • The positive posts on here regarding the new LS make me even more excited, and determined to go to the "taste" with an open mind. I don't think any Euro car fan here has ever had any trouble calling a car out on what it does do, and does not do best. Insults have been thrown around on both sides, I've done it, and have it done back, no big deal. We are all grown men here. [hopefully] Let's discuss our passion and not "pick up our toys and go home" when we here something we don't like.
    Once again, sorry to anyone that I've been insulting to on this board or any other. But, it goes both ways.
    The new LS raises the bar, apparently, here's to Audi raising the bar with the next set of platform mods. [sound of glass raising]
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Thanks Tagman,

    Good C & D article. Despite the sedan being 22 pounds heavier than the coupe it still manages to be one tenth of a second faster (4.8 sec. 0 to 60mph)? Not bad IMO.

    I may have to lose some weight myself in order to achieve C & D's performance.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    here's to Audi raising the bar with the next set of platform mods. [sound of glass raising]

    CLINK! And cheers.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Gee, that's funny, Porsche is German, and seems to do just great in JDP surveys.

    I dont really follow JDP surveys as closely as I should. But based on what I remember the latest JDP stats indicates that Porsche was top in Quality surveys for the first 90 days of ownership. Based on three years of ownership Porsche ranks below average.

    Not impressive IMO, unless someone intends to buy/lease a new Porsche for only 90 days.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Yes and no. For 2006, Porsche was below average in the VDS...a function, I think, of the Cayenne. But in 2005, they were number 2. The Cayenne issues have I think been resolved, so eventually they should move back up in the VDS.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    How were the steering and the brakes in the GS450h?
    That adaptive steering and the sensitive brakes in the GS430 were deal-breakers for me.


    The GS350 carries all of the 300's equipment over. No VDIM means no VGRS steering. I'm not sure if the GS V6 has an electric or hydraulic rack, but it definitely is better than the V8's. Electric steering hasn't been perfected yet, and any sort of variable ratio system just seems to amplify the problems of electric steering exponentially. Even the steering feel masters BMW fall into this trap. I don't remember having any problems with the brakes when I drove the GS300.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I was referring to the GS430.

    I had no problem with the GS300-its steering and brakes were fine-actually had more of a low-torque jolt than the 545 when just giving it a little gas. If the 545 deal fell through, I may have leased a GS300. I found the GS300 to be an entertaining car.

    The difference (and it's a big one) with the adaptive steering is on the BMW it's optional (thank heavens) and on the GS430 it wasn't. I would not have leased a 545 if it came with adaptive steering.
    I wanted to know if the GS450h mimicked the GS430 with its artificial adaptive steering and overly sensitive brakes.

    Lexus ruined what should have been a most entertaining vehicle (GS430) with electronic meddling overload.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I think future M3s will become a problematical issue for BMW.

    BMW has to make sure their "bread and butter" 3 series cars are able to compete with beefier G35s and IS350s. And at the same time it is not in BMWs interest to make the basic 3 series too potent or else they may cannibalize M series sales.

    The soon to be V8 M3 will be one powerful car. But the differences between the V8 M3 and the 335i will not be even close to the significant differences between the e30 M3s and 325is of the 1980s or even the differences between the more current e46 models.

    BMWs recent performance boost for their plain vanilla 3 series will make the M3 a harder sell in the future than they were in the past. IMO the performance gaps between future M and basic BMW models wills only shrink further. To the point where justifying the extra price of a M series will become a bigger issue for buyers.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I had an S-Class on order - then drove an LS430. Bought the LS on the spot, cancelled the S-class.

    I am now on my second LS430.

    Did I like anything about the S-Class better?? Yes, most everything. It's superior to the LS in most every respect. All but 2. Price, and reliability.

    Do I consider my car on par with the S-class? Nope.
    But, I think it is a HELM on the LE of the HE. Know what I mean? Entry level HE maybe? I think it belongs in the discussion, and certainly will, now that the ante has been raised with the LS460, L & h.

    I did not even consider a 7 series. I considered a Jag, but didn't shop for one.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    BMWs recent performance boost for their plain vanilla 3 series will make the M3 a harder sell in the future than they are today. IMO the performance gaps between future M and basic BMW models wills only shrink further. To the point where justifying the extra price of a M series will become a bigger issue for buyers.

    I dont think thats true. Audi seems to think there is plenty of room in its line up for the A6 4.2 S-line, the S6, and the RS6. The new M3 will still have a 100+hp advantage over the 335i, just like last time. The steering, brakes, and suspension will be M specials. The 335i is not an M3.
  • 1. I just drove by one of the 3 Audi dealers here in Houston. I don't visit this one much as it is off my beaten path, but since I was in the area I stopped. Low and behold they have 2 new S6's. One in the showroom in the blue color, and another one out back in Johnny Cash black/black and about as bad as the man himself. [The blue is striking as well] The attention to detail is heart stopping, it is beautiful both inside and out. The double stitch piping on the steering wheel and through the cabin is perfection. Not a suspect stitch anywhere. Blkhemi do you need a live in 36 year old musician to lovingly hand wash your car daily?
    2. There has been something wrong with the lines on the 335 coupe to my eye and it hit me on the way home while passing a Pontiac dealership. The back end of the coupe looks to much like a skinnier GTO. The lines are to out of proportion to me. The pleat down the middle just makes it worse. Now, this is still a better looking car than the GTO, and I would take one on performance alone, but, I just can't get with the styling. Is it just me?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    But, I think it is a HELM on the LE of the HE. Know what I mean? Entry level HE maybe? I think it belongs in the discussion, and certainly will, now that the ante has been raised with the LS460, L & h.

    The LS430 is a HELM. Perhaps by comparison, the lower tier, but nonetheless a HELM.

    And as the LS460 anchors itself more firmly into the HELM category, what will be the next "entry position" HELM to come along? An Infinity or Acura? Or, if we believe hpowders predictions, it will be a Hyundai in the not-too-distant future. ;)

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    No absolutely not. The 335i is no V8 M3 (although I do have fantasies about that). That was not what I was saying. What I am saying is the gaps in performance between basic BMWs and Ms are narrowing.

    Nor am I saying the M series or Audi S and RS models are going to go extinct soon. In fact I am not saying that at all. The V8 M3 may have a two year waiting list but that does not disprove my notion that the performance gaps between the two different models ( M versus plain BMW) are shrinking and will shrink further as time goes by. This shrinkage is guaranteed by the current and future competition from the likes of Infiniti and Lexus in the lower end of the performance sedan market.

    And sooner or later (not next year but maybe next decade) buyers will start asking the question "why the heck do I need to spend $10k or $20K or $30K more for a car that can do 3.5 seconds versus 3.9 seconds?
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Will you be at "Taste of Lexus" at Reliant Park? I'll be there on 10/29.

    I'll be the tall, dark, and handsome one..... :)

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    And sooner or later (not next year but maybe next decade) buyers will start asking the question "why the heck do I need to spend $10k or $20K or $30K more for a car that can do 3.5 seconds versus 3.9 seconds?

    I agree to a point. But, 0-60 times are only part of the equation. There is a lot more to it than that.

    But let us remember how blkhemi gave careful consideration to the decision between the AMG version of his new S-Class and the non-AMG version. Why? Because the performance was closer than it had ever been before, and it became a strong consideration as to whether or not the additional price was worth it or not.

    Sometimes not.

    It will depend upon the individual, of course, but some vehicles will be more obvious than others, IMO, as to whether or not they merit the tuned variant.

    No doubt that the standard 3 is a screamer, and the M3 will have to be unprecedented.

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Something other than the LS talk.

    I think that the M3 will still have a sizeable advantage over the 335i. The car won't slowdown an M5/6, but the performance disparities will be much tighter, particulerly since the 335i is netted at 4.8secs, while a comparible M5/6 takes 4.0-4.2secs, very close.

    So now BMW is saddled with the task of fitting the M3 in the category. BUT:

    Did anyone ever think that maybe, just maybe, BMW will follow the plan of Caddy, Audi, and MB?

    With Caddy, until the s'chrged STS-v came along, the CTS-v was the fastest Caddy on the lot. And the CTS-v, it's still on the heels of the 70hp more STS-v, slower by only 0.2 secs to 60 4.7 vs. 4.5

    Over at Audi, the RS 4 is the fastest Audi in the states. The car gets to 60 in 4.3 secs and has a 1/4 mile of ET of 12.3 secs, faster than the new and lighter 500hp Shelby Cobra. And it's $70k price undercuts the S6 by 10-15k, the S8 by $30k, cars that it is also faster than and handles better than.

    And with MB, the E63 is faster than the almost double it's price S600, and only 0.3 seconds slower than the uber S65 AMG, and is also just as fast as the S63. One thing that this AMG packs: It outhandles them all, save for the super tight SL55/65. All others can hang it up.

    So with BMW, I think that they have plenty of options to choose from when considering how to place the M3.

    True, the 335i has probably mounted the 3-Series back to the top of the class in ALL aspects, and the performance is blistering. But I think that they will still be able to market the M5/6 even tho this is the first time in the tuners history that the 3 poses this much of a threat to it's own family. But the M5/6 will still remain the "it" cars amongst the fast family of BMW....
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    Plus with the in-house tuners, you gain other modifications…exterior differentiation, interior, rims…plus exclusivity.

    With all these changes (and a factory warranty to back it up) a 20K premium for an M3 over a 335i may seem like a bargain (to some)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    No. I wouldn't go that far at this time.

    The way things currently look, Hyundai is beating Toyota at its own game, providing nicely styled, reliable family sedans at a better price.

    Watch what happens when CU/CR starts picking Hyundai over Toyota in their future sedan tests over the next several years. I believe this is inevitable.

    As far as luxury vehicles in the HELM realm, let's leave this to the folks who do it best: Mercedes Benz, Audi and BMW in descending order.

    If I previously wrote that Hyundai would be a major HELM player sometime in the near future, that would be incorrect.
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