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High End Luxury Cars

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  • As a 22 year old, I can say that I would never choose Cadillac over BMW, Lexus or even MB! My parents own brand new 2003 MDX and ES300 and I m quite certain that I would snatch up our MDX over our other vehicle, ES300. But if we owned new Cadillac insetead of MDX...will I choose Cadillac over Lexus? As much as I dont like our ES300, I would take it in a heartbeat over Cadillac!!!
    Wishnhigh1, I respect your opinion. But to be realistic, if college student like me were given a choice between a 3series (even hatchback MB and ES/IS300) and a cadillac, it's definetely easy choice! Most of my peers aspire to have "athletic" BMWs, "luxurious" Lexus, and "enticing" MBs. As for Cadillac...well...we associate Cadillac as a "old" person vehicle. To be fair, you could consider my preference of luxury brand as a minority representation of young people.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    but I fail to see the productivity of this continuing argument about what appeals to a certain group of people.

    Who cares?

    All that matters is what appeals to each of you.

    Let's move on to something else, please.
  • I agree with Pat, this is a silly discussion. However, to say that the "average" young adult likes Lexus over Cadillac is pure speculation, not fact like Maxhonda likes to refer to it as.

    What the average young person likes is determined by so many different variables, mostly economic and geographic...it is impossible to generalize. Not to mention, anybody who makes an assumption on the opinions of others is also affected by their own perceptions.

    However, to say that young people DONT like Cadillacs is completely false. The cars I see every day in the student lots are a pure testament to that. Same goes with all the Cadillacs in music videos and other elements of youthful pop culture.

    That doesnt mean that BMWs, Audis(my favorite luxury cars), Lexi, MBs, etc arent popular...but it is pure speculation to say that one is more popular than the other.
  • "However, to say that the "average" young adult likes Lexus over Cadillac is pure speculation, not fact like Maxhonda likes to refer to it as."

    "However, to say that young people DONT like Cadillacs is completely false. The cars I see every day in the student lots are a pure testament to that."

    That is a contradictory statement - a student parking lot in California is not any more representative than maxhonda's opinion!
  • Read more carefully.

    To say that a group likes Brand A over Brand B is NOT the same as saying that a group does not like Brand B. Two completely seperate statements.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    move ON please

    :)
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    What is this forum going to be about once you elimate all the arguments? Why would people as a stupid question like "what is the point of this argument?" You might as well say "what is the point of Townhall?". Any topics where people dont debate are boring and sparsely attended. This topic was dead until a few days back. How long can you come here to read about the same people praising Lexus and MB over and over? If they love their cars that is beautiful but it doesnt mean we should shy away from any conflict.

    magnetophone:

    your post about cadillac not being a trendsetter was pointless. First off you mention a bunch of things that Cadillac just adopted and then say "I dont see anyone else copying them so they arent a top Luxury marque". How could anyone copy art & science after a year? Cadillac is trying to be different, they arent trying to design cars than can easily be copied. You give a lot of credit to BMW and Audi for setting trends that they didnt set. The Japanese luxury cars were the ones that forced the Germans to design inviting, logical interiors, not vice versa. The interior of a '92 Lexus was far better than the interior of any '92 Audi, MB or BMW. Look at some old motor trends if you dont believe me. While many companies have copied the handling of BMWs I dont see evidence of them copying BMWs styling or drab interiors (only recently brightened up with wood and metal accents) full of small buttons and red back lighting. The interior of the Ls430 looks better than any German interior to me, and yes Audi is included.

    You people are killing me with your XLR trashing. The car is going to be very limited production and cost thousands less than the XKR and SL500 and yet I keep hearing that no one will buy it because its a cadillac. Is that why the $85K Nieman Marcus models sold out in 14 minutes? People are saying that the car wont sell because its too expensive and its cadillac but there is no mention of the nice styling, the 315 hp engine and the state-of-the-art technology. Can anyone give me a REAL reason why it isnt an SL or XK8 competitor? Not everyone is a follower and I wish you people would get that. The car will sell because many people will want to be the first in their area to have one.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I though we already agreed on this re-tooling thing. Maybe I should have said that for SOME makers it isn't an issue. Mercedes for example has more than one plant that is able to build E-Classes. Maybe it's a problem for Honda, but not for everyone. Age and the news of a new E is what slowed the old E-Class down in the market.

    1487,

    Ok I agree with that. You admit that Audi has a better image than Cadillac? Wow, that is a revelation from you. Yes I was kinda rooting for you because as you well know I don't care much for Lexus either. But you still have that GM slant that I just can't fully agree with.

    magnetophone,

    Post #1804, EXACTLY!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I don't think anyone is saying the XLR won't be a competitor to the SL, SC and XK8, what they're saying is that its not going to beat any of those cars. Cadillac still doesn't have the rep to command 75K for a car. A Nieman Marcus anything will sellout, Range Rovers and Thunderbirds included.

    M
  • "I don't think anyone is saying the XLR won't be a competitor to the SL, SC and XK8, what they're saying is that its not going to beat any of those cars. Cadillac still doesn't have the rep to command 75K for a car. A Nieman Marcus anything will sellout, Range Rovers and Thunderbirds included."

    Beat them how? In the opinions of Magazine editors? You yourself has denied the value of magazine comparisons, because of the strong desire to compare everything to BMW. So what else is there?

    The only real comparison is in the eye of the buyer. If the XLR sells, it sells...it doesnt matter if it is Nieman Marcus or Fisher Price.

    And if Cadillac doesn't have the rep to sell $75k cars, how do they do it?...ESPECIALLY with a car that the public has only seen pictures of?!
  • How do you guys find the time to post so much?

    Maxhonda,

    I been out of school twelve years now and back then, my favorite luxury automaker was a Cadillac and still is to this day. Cadillacs were pure luxury back then in 1990 and '91 when I begin to take interest in the product. I don't care for Mercedes or BMW back then. I thought they were ugly as sin except few of the models. I like them (luxury imports) a lot better now but if I had a limited amount of income to choose between the STS, S500, or 745Li, I would choose the STS. Although the S500 and 745Li maybe a better car than the STS and in another league, the STS is an excellent luxury car without explaining itself to anyone.

    magnetohpone,

    What you said about Cadillacs being seen in poorer neighborhoods is somewhat spot on. That might been one of the reasons why I liked Cadillacs so much but calling them chump change is way off base. Most Cadillacs around here are driven by older people but more than 1/4ths. of age groups driving older models are younger people.

    However Matt, in the future, what you said about Cadillacs being driven by poorer people seems to be racist if you know what I mean. In poorer neighborhoods, African Americans predominantly live in those neighborhoods. Although you did not say that but anyone can read between the lines. So base on what you see, don't create a stereotype if you don't have a clue what's going on around you. I can easily say only white people drive BMWs and Porches out of ignorance which is false so clean up your posts a bit, please.

    Now to anyone, you guys need to stop being critics. I can tell you several number of Cadillacs that does get crossed shop between the high end competitors. It may not happen as commonly like the LS 430 between S 500 and 7 series but it does happen. The DTS may not be cross shopped according to you guys but it does and I can tell you some posters and their friends chose a DTS over a BMW, Lexus and Mercedes. So, if the car meets certain peoples needs so beat it if Cadillac won them over from Lexus or Mercedes.

    Also for those people that suppose to be rich on here that did not look at a Cadillac. Guess what, some percentage of people that are rich would never consider driving a Mercedes, Bentley, Rolls, BMW, or Lexus over a Cadillac also. So you guys need to stop giving in stereotype and just worry about the automaker you like so much and cherish the car you are driving right now and stop speculating so much.

    Again, I will tell you this like I would tell any of my friends that Cadillac, IMO, makes the best looking cars than anyone. Just about all the Cadillacs currently are drop-dead gorgeous and I can't say the same much about the luxury imports except a few. That is the reason I like Cadillac so much because of styling. So, take it whatever you want but that is my bias opinion.

    Lexus cars are nice but no excitement in styling and always tend to follow.

    Mercedes are nice especially the gorgeous SL 500/55 but Mercedes does not stand out anymore because they are being copied off of by anyone from Asian like Lexus and Acura.

    BMWs creating a new regime like Cadillac is in styling but their cars are funky looking to me like the new 7 and Z4.

    Jaguars have the most beautiful interior designs in its class but the exteriors are too old school and boring. I can't understand why anyone one consider the exterior of the Jaguars gorgeous anyhow. They simply are not.

    Audis are cutting edge in All-wheel drive and looks to be a contender in a few years but shared platforms a little too much like VWs. is turning me off.

    So, therefore Cadillac is the leader in styling direction, among the top in technology and best of all. They are original and they never imitate or duplicate. That is why I like them so much.

    J "CaddyLac"
  • I never spoke of a racial connection to Cadillacs. At least where I live, most African-Americans don't live in the "poor" part of town. The "poor" part of town is about 1/10th the population of the city, so not many people at all live in the poor part of town. t's just something I've noticed. Lexi are also very common in poorer parts of town, but I wouldn't veture to say a particular race drives either.

    My aunt and cousins are Kenyan, and I also have a Vietnamese aunt and my parents are immigrants, so I wouldn't worry about me being racist.
    .
  • pcbrspcbrs Posts: 56
    J CaddyLac-

    "Mercedes are nice especially the gorgeous SL 500/55 but Mercedes does not stand out anymore because they are being copied off of by anyone from ASIAN like Lexus and Acura."

    Some may construe this as being racist as well, and ask you to "clean up your post". My guess is that you didn't mean it in that way, since you seem like a nice guy. But just goes to show how posts can be misinterpreted if read with a certain perspective.

    -Jeff
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Oh my, could we just talk about CARS???

    Again, it seems absolutely pointless to argue about (which is very different than "debating") what vehicle appeals to any given segment of society.

    Let's talk about what we appeals to each of us individually and not worry about categorizing people in any way.

    It's not necessary and the direction in which we've been going isn't even reasonable.

    Please, no more last words on this subject -- it is closed.

    Move on.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Beat them how? In the opinions of Magazine editors? You yourself has denied
    the value of magazine comparisons, because of the strong desire to compare
    everything to BMW. So what else is there? "

    Obviously you haven't been paying attention, I said that I'm tired of magazines ranking cars below BMWs soley because of handling. If you read some of my other posts I usually more or less agree with MOST comparo's. In the case of this class of cars (SC430, SL500, XK8/R and XLR) handling isn't going to be as big of a deciding factor and better yet BMW isn't even competing in this class. Pay closer attention.

    Nieman Marcus can sell anything in a hot moment. When the XLR goes 3 years with constant sales it will be a success. The list of fallen-off cars at these prices is a long one, SC400, NSX, 850Ci etc and you can probably add the SC430 to the list by 2004. The previous SL didn't have such a problem, with 1997 (it's 8th(!) model year) being it's best year. Thats success.

    J "CaddyLac,

    "Audis are cutting edge in All-wheel drive and looks to be a contender in a few years but shared platforms a little too much like VWs."

    What is the disadvantage of this? Audi and VW are far more seperated than others who do the same thing, including Lexus, Cadillac and Acura. And Audi is a "contender" right now, easily ahead of everyone except MB, BMW and arguably Lexus.

    "Mercedes are nice especially the gorgeous SL 500/55 but Mercedes does not stand out anymore because they are being copied off of by anyone from Asian like Lexus and Acura."

    To some that may be so, but for those who like Mercedes it's all the more reason to want the "original". I'm not sure how your remarks can be seen as racist though, Acura and Lexus are Asian cars. I'm lost on that one.

    M
  • Nieman Marcus can sell anything at the moment? I dont know about you, but I buy a car, not an "edition".

    As far as comparisons and your terms of success...we'll just have to wait and see. All your comments are pure speculation. I predict the best...in fact, I can see Cadillac up there with making a big dent in sales of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus, in the coming 4 or 5 years.
  • O.K., I see what you meant now when you explained what you meant. Though I misunderstood when I was reading earlier in your post. Anyway, lets move talking about cars.

    Merc1,

    Can you enlightened us on the connotation of what the letters stand for? Remember in the CTS topic of how screwed up the Cadillac naming has been. Now what does C in "C Class", E and S in model classes stand for. I think if I recall you said SL stands for "small light" or sport light".

    On the Phaeton and new A8, the side profile looks very similar. However, I don't think I would spend $70,000 on it and I could get the A8. By the looks of the pictures, I am not too sure I really like the looks of the car (A8). I prefer the current A8 model which is very classy and elegant. The Phaeton to me is a touring car that is not sporty at all but on the inside, it is in another league of its on. Also too, I think the current A4 is gorgeous. I can see myself in this car as well. I don't know if you agree or not but is it me or is it that every time I use the word gorgeous about cars, cars look better and more stylish each generation. Don't you seem to agree. I used that word on various Cadillacs, on the SL and now on the A4.

    J "CaddyLac"
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Neiman Marcus selling out of XLR's means nothing.

    Remember, Neiman Marcus also sold a version of the Thunderbird. And they sold them out quickly also. How is the Thunderbird doing now? It sure doesn't have a 1-year waiting list.

    The C-class, E-class, and S-class designations don't really mean anything. The C, E, and S, basically designate where the car is in the model hierarchy. C would be below E, E would be below S. It is similar to what BMW does except with they do it with number designations.
  • Neiman Marcus can do whatever he wants to the XLR but it still will be a Cadillac. Remember all cadillac's are, are nicer varients of Chevy GMC and oldsmobile's. For me im sticking to my 03 SL63.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Nieman Marcus can sell anything at the moment? I dont know about you, but I buy a car, not an "edition"."

    And that means what? Cadillacers are touting that the Nieman Marcus XLR sold out so fast, and I'm basically saying that means nothing.

    "I can see Cadillac up there with making a big dent in sales of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus, in the coming 4 or 5 years."

    Also pure speculation.

    J "CaddyLac",

    Well Maxhonda touched on it, and he's basically right. The "E" used to mean gasoline when they put the E after the engine size, like 300E, D was for diesels as in 300D. Now as per the last time they were laid out for me, they meant Compact (C), Executive (E) and Super for (S). Now SL, and SLK, CLK all have more meaning. Coupe, Short, Light, for CLK. Sport Light, is for SL, Coupe Light is for CL. All of this is translated from German words.

    benzbuddy,

    A SL63? Care to explain that one to me?

    M
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    I merely bought up a Nieman Marcus thing to show that there is a buzz about the car and that people were willing to pay $15K over the likely sticker price to get one. I didn't think merc1 would start analyzing this thing to death. Even if every other NM car sold out the fact is this is the most expensive of the models offered thus far and it sold out far faster than any of the other cars. The car will sell and the fact that it's a cadillac may help it because it makes it seem exclusive. Two years ago no one would've believed that cadillac would have a real RWD luxury roadster and people who have been waiting for cadillac to step up will be excited about this car. Like wishnight, I would like to know what you mean when you say the car won't "beat" anything else in the class. What are you talking about, this isnt a boxing match. These cars are all competent and luxurious, our point is that the XLR will be among the top two in luxury, performance and innovation. This crap about cadillac's "rep" is absurd and you all know that. If MB can charge $90K for the Sl500 then Cadillac can charge $70K for the XLR. Niether car is worth that much and anyone who puts that much money into a car isnt making the wisest investment. The performance, exclusivity and technology of the car sets the price, not the badge on the front. If the Sl500 had the same features as a Miata it wouldnt cost $90K, even if you plastered the MB star all over the car. If the XLR is up to snuff then people who aren't in love with Euro imports will consider the car. Of course people like Maxhonda and merc1 would be caught dead in a cadillac and that's fine, but you cant assume that rational people in the market wouldn't look at and BUY the damn car basedon its merits. If you have a personal preference that is fine but do not try and use (il)logical arguments to justify your position.

    also, merc1 don't insult me by acting like I have recently converted to your school of thinking. I have never said that Cadillac's image (image not being synonomous reality) is superior to audi, BMW or MB. I don't know why you are so shocked. I have a thorough understanding of the market and you know that so dont act like I am so pro-cadillac that I would ignore basic truths of the luxury car industry.

    There are numerous Audi, BMW and MB models that I would like to own, but the fact remains that I am rooting for the underdog and I hope that one day they can no longer be considered an underdog. If not following the herd makes me a "cadillacer" as you have so eloquently called us, than so be it. Now you know much more than the average import fanatic (and you dont like Lexus which is a plus) but let's be honest it isn't hard to go around praising the guys on top. Any 8th grader who was chauferred to school is his mom's RX300 can come on here and repeat a lot of the "lexus rules!" or "cadillac sucks!" nonsense I see on Townhall.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "Two years ago no one would've believed that cadillac would have a real RWD luxury roadster and people who have been waiting for cadillac to step up will be excited about this car."

    It's been in the news for more than 2 years. The problem is RWD should have come around a decade ago. It should not have taken this long. I'm excited about the car also, it's the only Cadillac so far that wears the new design theme well, and corvette underpinnings don't hurt either. What sucks is the plastic body panels. GM's choice of skinning should have been aluminum.

    "I would like to know what you mean when you say the car won't "beat" anything else in the class. What are you talking about, this isnt a boxing match."

    If I remember properly(I'm paying attention), you are the one who started the boxing match. I can reference back to the "next year Cadillac is going to run past Lexus in sales." statements made repeatedly. Also, statements along the lines of "When is Lexus going to compete model to model with Benz & BMW" thereby, implying Cadillac does compete model to model with anyone.

    "This crap about cadillac's "rep" is absurd and you all know that."

    Actually, no it isn't. Cadillac has built Crap all thru the 90s. The last time Cadillac's rep was golden was in the 60's(?), it certainly hasn't had a good rep since Mercedes, BMW started exploding with models in the early 90s and since Lexus & Infiniti came on the scene.

    "The performance, exclusivity and technology of the car sets the price, not the badge on the front. If the Sl500 had the same features as a Miata it wouldnt cost $90K, even if you plastered the MB star all over the car."

    You have it all wrong here. The badge does set part of the price, otherwise a SL500 wouldn't cost $90,000. The badge on the front of a S600 also allows Mercedes to sell it and sell it for a premium. If you stuck a Cadillac badge on a S600, and tried to sell it for even $10K less, very few would buy it. The point is, Badge does set price, partially.

    Of course the SL500 with Miata features wouldn't cost $90K, because then it wouldn't be a SL500. The features of the SL500, as well as the ownership experience, the reputation of Mercedes, the build quality, and the Prestige factor is what makes it cost $90K.

    "Of course people like Maxhonda and merc1 would be caught dead in a cadillac"

    The proper word would be "wouldn't" not "would".

    Actually, I would love to be behind the wheel of a XLR, if it does compete with cars like the SC430, SL500, XK8. The art & science theme works on the XLR, unlike the CTS which is a big positive. If it drives luxuriously, handles well, has outstanding build quality(Something that has eluded Cadillac), and competes, I would take a XLR over a SC430. Of course at the price Cadillac is hoping to charge for the car, it better be a much better car than the SC430 for example.

    "Any 8th grader who was chauferred to school is his mom's RX300 can come on here and repeat a lot of the "lexus rules!" or "cadillac sucks!" nonsense I see on Townhall."

    So, I am assuming you were a 8th grader chauferred to school in a in your mom's Cimarron and that's where your "Cadillac is King" attitude is from.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    There is WAY too much emphasis on personal, uncivil and disruptive disagreements going on here.

    There are folks here who persist in posting messages which do nothing more than attack. There is NO less productive way to get your point of view heard. If the point of a posted message is nothing more than an attack of another poster, NO one is going to ponder for one second the perspective you wish to bring to the conversation.

    As I have previously noted, this discussion has a history of intelligent, reasonable and NON-attacking debate. We need to find a way to get back there, and we need to do it now.

    The childish back-biting and name-calling that has been occurring here is completely inappropriate and will not be tolerated any longer.

    Thank you for your understanding. Feel free to email me if you have any questions or further comments.

    Pat, Host
  • The posts were like reading War and Peace meets Jerry Springer.

    Back on topic. Does anybody have an idea of how Lincoln/Mercury plan to compete in this segment with all of the cost cutting going on. I understand that most people don't think that Mercury will be around much longer and that Lincoln really doesn't compete. However, they have to make up the appearance right? Do they relegate themselves to Buick/Cadillac fighters and let the rest of the PAG compete against Lexus/MB/Audi/BMW?
  • The SL 63 is a mere prototype. Not a production car. All I ment is that Id rather have a SL 55 than a XLR. What an ugly car that is.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    to respond to questions about topic management via email.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Just because Mercedes can charge 90K for a SL500 doesn't mean Cadillac can charge 75K for the XLR. Mercedes' reputation isn't in question here, Cadillac's is. Anyone who thinks that a luxury car's reputation isn't called into question when someone is considering droppoing 75K on a car is dead wrong to say the least, or blinded by the wreath and crest. Mercedes has been charging 90K or more for cars for years and years and with engineering to back it up. Anyone with an "understanding" of the market would know that Cadillac has never done anything to warrant or justify charging 70K for a car. Period.

    Nieman Marcus selling 99 XLR's doesn't mean much, as they sell out of every car they've ever offered through one of their online specials.

    I'm all for pulling for the underdog, but lets be real here, Cadillac isn't going to have no where near any easy time selling the XLR, unless they sell about 3K a year, which is what the SL, SC and XK do in a few months.

    M
  • Why don't we compute the math here. If Cadillac sold 99/99 vehicles in 15 minutes, one could reason that the whole fleet of 3,000 XLRs will be gone within the first day of sale. What, do I hear shouts of "crazed idiot"?

    Well call me what you want, but when GM has already had more than 20,000 inquiries into this vehicle of people wishing to place deposits, it doesn't seem too far-fetched for a mere 3,000 vehicles to sell out in one day. That's less than 1/6 the inquiry number, anyway. And even with a computed atricion (sp?) rate, 3,000 should be easy to achieve.

    Who knows how the price was/will be set. Most likely just done by the GM bean counters using linear programming with constraints related to production, profit, vehicle price, etc., and that they chose number around 75k (with the sales of the more expensive Neiman Marcus version), provided what would produce maximum sales and profit. Who knows...
  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    baron, en Anglais, s'il vous plait.

    And no, you're not a crazed idiot...I'm just really bad at math.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Be sure to read this very carefully, Cadillac will NEVER EVER sell 3000 XLRs in one day. Never. Please wake up.

    M
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