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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I thought I made it pretty clear that I disagree with that perception, in the full unedited post. :(

    That doesn't mean Merc' perception isn't reasonable. It may be exactly how many buyers perceive the LS. That could very well be the word on the street. Maybe not.

    That's old news, as I say again, Lexus is nobody's stepchild. They're large and in charge!

    The Future is here. And it's pretty cool! Let's Dance! :D

    DrFill
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    That's old news, as I say again, Lexus is nobody's stepchild. They're large and in charge!

    Hey Doc aren't you reading my posts?
    The CEO of BMW is shaking in his boots when he thinks of Lexus. He doesnt even think about MB no more.

    No, Lexus is nobody's stepchild. We know that. You know that. Everybody in the Lexus forums know that. And German CEOs know that.
  • mickylmickyl Posts: 14
    I am about to buy a MB S550 brand new with the sticker price of $92,300, for $89,000. I am getting $3.3K discount off the MSRP. Good deal or no? If not, what would you recommend that I negotiate?

    Any comments welcome.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The CEO of BMW is shaking in his boots when he thinks of Lexus.

    LOL.

    He doesn't take them for granted, true, but shaking in his boots? I don't think so!

    Heck, if you read that recent BusinessWeek article I posted (and I know you did) you know that Lexus visits the BMW facility to see how they do things over there. BMW is a rare standard Lexus looks up to!

    Lexus has obviously tried to Bangle their newest models, and have clearly targeted BMW as the ones they would like to beat.

    Imagine that! Lexus visiting, looking up to, copying, and following BMW!

    TagMan
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    It is a strange paradox actually, this Audi in the US vs. Audi globally. By all measure, Audi is one of the supreme Tier ones globally easily surpassing Lexus whether it is product, heritage, and prestige. Yet, in America, Audi (and I will admit it is Audi of America's fault) that they prefer to be the stealth premium brand. In so far as Dewey pointed out in this respect I agree. Yet, in many respects Audi surpasses its rivals as you said. For the higher priced Audis, including the A8 in certain markets, you just cannot get one. AoA creates a schizophrenic mentality in terms of their marketing, but signs point that things are changing quickly in this front. Also, Audi is treated more harshly than other premium brands that seem to be forgiven for their shortcomings where Audi would not. BMW comes quickly to mind. A double standard does exist in this market. To a certain degree that is good as Audi is creating some phenomonal cars now and upcoming. BMW maybe worried about Lexus, a strange notion at best, when it really should be worried about Audi and Mercedes-Benz - with Audi somewhat more - as BMW it is getting beat up in certain markets by Audi. Europe and China come to mind, where this year Automotive News predicts Audi will overtake BMW in Europe. My take is always from a global tier 1 level, and that is where real HELMs come to play, and not just America.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Lexus has obviously tried to Bangle their newest models, and have clearly targeted BMW as the ones they would like to beat.

    Lexus is at odds with itself about beating BMW. They say they are gunning for BMW, but then they are not willing to make any compromise on ride quality, which ultimately means their cars will always lose objective and subjective handling tests to BMW. I think what was said before is correct, Lexus doesn't want the BMW hardcore group that buys only MTs with the top engines, and sport packages. They want to chip away at the 325i and 525i, non-sport automatic group.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The CEO of BMW is shaking in his boots when he thinks of Lexus."

    With all due respect, Dewey, I really don't think so.
    I think they are more worried about the usual suspects, and now, Porsche, moving a move into sedans.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    First and for most, if you're getting anything off of the hottest HELM going right now, no question, make the plunge.

    $89k seems to be a generous discount given the car that you're about to purchase.

    What options does it have? For a sticker at 92k, there may not be many, as MB's option pkgs. are stupifyingly expensive. But hey, there is enough standard equipment to keep even me occupied.

    As always, I'll tell you like I'd tell anyone else, scramble for the best deal possible. It never hurts to keep juggling numbers. Dealers do it all the time, but this is your money, so take your time and get to the "absolute bottom line".

    You're lucky, as I had to bite the bullet and pay full sum for my S600, but rightfully so since it was a special order. At the end of the day, the total for the special order was $151k, as I added the AMG 20" wheels, tri-Coate pearl paint, paint and leather protection, and Sat.TV pre-wiring.

    In short, don't let this one get away. I'm pretty sure Merc would tell you the same thing, right Merc?!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Sorry. It was very early when I posted that. :blush:
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I don’t think BMW is worried about anything or anyone. They are clearly moving to the beat of their own drum, and that beat is platform diversity and innovation, or at least the appearance of innovation. If they were worried about Porsche they wouldn’t have produced such models as the Z3, Z4, the M varieties of the two-seaters and the Z2 in the near future.

    Worried about Lexus? Ooh no. BMW became the largest luxury car manufacturer during the rise of Lexus, in spite of Lexus. If anything, BMW should worry about the quality its own judgment as an independent thinker. Perhaps they should also worry about not worrying. iDrive, active steering, run-flat tires, seat belt feeders, styling, SMG, hydrogen ICE… questionable “innovations”.

    And as the rising tide of automotive sales has lifted many ships, BMWs impeccable branding has provided the buoyancy. This increases almost exponentially with their aggressive platform diversity in recent years. In addition, xDrive AWD was a booster rocket. BMW ain't got nuthin' bothering them, so it seems.

    BTW, here's a recent interview with Adrian van Hooydonk of BMW. It gives a little insight into their design process. I question their creative approach and creative results but it's a worthy read:

    An Interview with BMW's Chief Designer

    And here's some imagination with the Z2 which may appear in 2010. I actually like the styling much better than the Z4 even though it still has a cartoon countenance. I could see myself tooling around in something like this:

    BMW Z2 concept
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,897
    Please don't make me laugh. BMW only has one vehicle that even qualifies as a helm. The 7 series is the only true luxury auto that they build, and it is the tail end charlie of this group.

    World's leading luxury car mfg.? You sure you don't want to think about that statement? They build some good performance cars but not helms. There is a difference.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    World's leading luxury car mfg.? You sure you don't want to think about that statement? They build some good performance cars but not helms.

    Luxury does include premium performance autos. Therefore BMW is the number one luxury car maker in the world.
    I know an elder gentleman who thinks Buicks are the best luxury cars today. I guess you and him have similar definitions of luxury which would include Buicks and rebadged Camrys and Highlanders.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,897
    Well I finally got to see all the different segment winners in this recently quoted survey that measured perceived VALUE by questioning 64,000 new vehicle owners. Honda was named overall best coropration.

    In the luxury car division first place was a tie between the Lexus LS 430, Acura RL, and Audi A8. Hard to argue with that. All fine automobiles. Hats off to the retiring LS for still winning with the older model.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,897
    I can certainly understand why any elderly Canadian gentleman would like Buicks. After all, they are made in the U.S.A. At the moment I can't seem to recall too many successful Canadian auto companies. ;)

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "Please don't make me laugh. BMW only has one vehicle that even qualifies as a helm. The 7 series is the only true luxury auto that they build, and it is the tail end charlie of this group.

    World's leading luxury car mfg.? You sure you don't want to think about that statement? They build some good performance cars but not helms. There is a difference."


    Well here, laugh at these. If I have to rethink the statement maybe these sources have to rethink it also. They all refer to BMW as the largest luxury or premium car manufacturer. I guess they’re imagining things and are wrong according to you. By the way, a HELM is the brand, not the car. And if BMW has only “one true luxury auto” how many do you think Lexus has?

    http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/may2006/bw20060505_131772.htm

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aKYpWhGEZ3hA&refer=germany

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW

    http://www.germany.info/relaunch/business/new/bus_overview_5_19_2006.html

    http://auto.consumerguide.com/articles/index.cfm/act/featuredarticles/article/FA- - - - - - - - _DETROIT_2006.html
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,897
    Well, if you want to count the Mini and the 3 series as luxury autos I suppose you can, but I don't. Take their sales out and you don't have much left. I guess we will just have to disagree on the definition of luxury.

    I don't see "brands" listed for this helm forum. I see individual cars. Led, of course, by the mighty LS. And yes, I am still laughing.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    By the way, a HELM is the brand, not the car. And if BMW has only “one true luxury auto” how many do you think Lexus has?

    Bingo and checkmate!

    Of course, BMW easily qualifies as a HELM, and I can just bet that the Lexus board has got to be laughing as the HELM board argues whether or not BMW qualifies as a HELM and whether or not BMW is shaking in its boots from the threat of Lexus.

    Bottom line reality is clear enough. . .

    1. BMW is a HELM
    2. No shaking boots.

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Tagman, what makes ME laugh is the fascination with sales that some of the Lexus fans have. As an example to the contrary you rarely if ever hear sales talk coming from Porsche fans and buyers. Most of them don’t revel in Porsche’s success. They couldn’t care less and as a matter of fact many of them are disturbed by Porsche’s efforts to sell in volume. They also complain about the high prices—completely the opposite.

    However, after reading the Lexus forums and considering all that has transpired over the years in this thread I’ve come to the conclusion that it is less than a handful of Lexus buyers that are infatuated with sales. The others just focus on the cars, reliability and value as they should. It is those few that try whip the others into a frenzy over sales and the fatuous desire for Lexus to increase prices.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The others just focus on the cars, reliability and value as they should. It is those few that try whip the others into a frenzy over sales and the fatuous desire for Lexus to increase prices.

    Absolutely, d-man. You're comin' in loud and clear.

    The typical Lexus buyer is basically very glad about reliability and the "value" of Lexus' luxury/price ratio.

    Just imagine, instead, that the vast majority of Lexus buyers were in a frenzy over sales, freaked out about the Lexus image, and insisted that Lexus raise its prices.

    TagMan
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    Exactly, focus on the cars, their designs, quality, performance, technology, and things that matter. Agreed!
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    I always knew that Audi was a Tier 1 and was the third-largest luxury automaker in the world, but I had no idea that Audi was on its way to be No. 1 in Europe.

    China, I know of- there's 2 Audi A6s for every 1 BMW sold there! Just A6s!

    But, CarSpace is a welcome change from the grueling, never-ending flame wars of AutoSpies (go to it; it's terrible).

    Audi has set its clear target: they are upping the ante in advertising here, as shown by the Q7 ads, and they want to be No. 1 in the world by 2015. There's a large chance they'll be at least in 2nd by then, as all three of the Germans are pretty much neck-and-neck in the top spots right now.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    The 525i is pathetic. Lexus can do better than that.

    Any man who drives a 525i/xi and calls himself a car enthusiast is sadly mistaken.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG &#149; '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet &#149; '03.5 Lexus RX330 <---Soon to be replaced
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    So, if a 2007 BMW 525i appeared in your garage tomorrow, you wouldn't attempt to drive it, because you would feel too embarrassed?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    1. BMW is a HELM
    2. No shaking boots.

    At least we got point one established.

    The "shaking boots" part is fully my responsibility and I have no proof whatsoever that the the CEO of BMW shakes in his boots or even wears boots. But I do detect some Lexus anxiety from the following quote:

    One BMW staffer who has worked with the new CEO Reithofer says he "never spoke about Mercedes. He was always looking over his shoulder at Toyota.

    Over the next decade, BMW expects Lexus and Infiniti brands to set up plants in Europe and then hire German engineers to work on building cars with BMW-like handling. Within five years, predicts Reithofer, it could be "Lexus that we will be most busy competing with.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Houdini that is just one survey on VALUE . You conveniently forgot the most important Strategic Vision survey that measures the most important measurement of owning a car: SATISFACTION.

    And BMW is number one in terms of satisfaction. Hyundais ,Lexuses and Honda Civics provide value. Based on Strategic Visions surverys car owners are more satisfied with overpriced BMWs than with bland value cars like Lexuses. You want value go to Lexus. You want satisfaction go to BMW. Personally I prefer satisfaction over value any day. :P

    San Diego-based Strategic Vision surveyed more than 64,000 people who purchased new vehicles from October 2005 to March 2006. Participants were questioned after 90 days of ownership. The study, separate from Strategic Vision's quality survey, tries to capture whether consumers believe they got their money's worth and factors in emotional components.

    Overall, BMW AG outperformed all companies, including Honda, but because it sells only luxury vehicles and the Mini sports coupe and convertible, it is not considered a full-line automaker.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    a frenzy over sales and the fatuous desire for Lexus to increase prices.

    Show me a community that prays for higher car prices other than the one that exists in Lexus forums and I will show you a community that lives comfortably in padded cells. I can assure you Porsche drivers are not unique in complaining about high prices.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    So, If a 2007 525i magically appeared in your garage, you wouldn't drive it because you would feel too embarrassed?

    Only if your 545i is beside me at a red traffic light. I would make an illegal U turn with the 525i and drive away in complete humiliation and despair.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Dewey, I'm familiar with the BusinessWeek article . . . heck, I posted it. I believe the proper interpretation is that Reithofer is aware of the intentions of Lexus and he has expressed his concern. He shows a realistic and yet balanced perspective, IMO.

    Let's just say . . . no boot shaking . . . but he's not in denial.

    I'm finding your recent posts interesting, because you and I went around quite a bit on the LS board (before we got "transferred"), and you now seem to have come around to the idea that Lexus is indeed something for BMW to be concerned about.

    Some other thoughts to toss around . . .

    Personally, I do not see Lexus stopping any time in the immediate future. Long-term, however, I'm not as sure. I am starting to wonder about them pricing themselves too high. (Maybe Doc and friends have shared their Kool-aid with Lexus headquarters.) They do seem to be getting a bit "full of themselves" . . . a little too cocky and arrogant for their own good perhaps.

    Arrogance is usually a sign of a future downturn in real-life business models.

    Once Lexus discards the "value" card, it's a whole new ball game, IMO.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Heh! Heh! Sometimes I catch people in the parking lot heading behind me to see which 5 Series I have. I do enjoy that.

    But, Dewey, you and I both know there are a lot of folks out there who would be thrilled to be driving a 525i. I mean, it's a BMW! And I personally would rather drive the roomy 525i with its 50/50 front/rear perfectly balanced weight distribution, than a cramped Lexus IS. Once you get the 525i up to speed, it is a lot of fun! ;)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Tagman,

    Obviously I do not believe the new LS and the GS and IS are serious competitiors to the German marques.

    Previouly I had doubted Lexus would try to build cars like BMWs. Why would they anyways when they have a vast number of soft luxury-riding fans? But based on the Businessweek article my doubts appear to be wrong. Especially if Lexus builds a factory not far from BMW factories and starts raiding BMW talent. European built Lexuses for the European market will have to handle superlatively with stiffer rides in order to be received well in Europe. And if that is the case then BMW and the other German marques will start losing their distinctive reputations in terms of producing the greatest handlers in the luxury/performance segment.
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