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High End Luxury Cars

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  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Care to back this up with facts ?

    As far as I know Lexus was introduced before 5 years ago! Lexus started in 1989 or 1990 and MB sales grew quite substantially since those years!

    Also MB sales at the tail end of 05 grew quite nicely indicating the beginning of a turnaround.

    And the Lexus LS remains a lower priced alternative to a MB S. There are more Tissot watches sold than Omegas due to price. Despite higher sales volumes, Tissots are not considered superior to Omegas. I dont why that is so hard for many forum members to understand?

    Syswei pointed out you got to consider how prestige and price offset each others to find out if the Lexus LS or MB S is superior. Such a task is not quantifiable and a waste of time. The fact remains MB S is the Luxury BEnchmark since they are most valued by the market. In fact the MB S is more valued than an equivalent BMW 7 series.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    And the Lexus LS remains a lower priced alternative to a MB S.

    The well-worn and untenable excuse of pricing rears its ugly head once again. Let's repeat once again: If the S is such a higher prestige car to the LS, why is the price difference hampering its sales ??? Or, is the S and LS on the same marque brand level, where price becomes the only difference ???

    Maybe Tissots are not better than Omegas, but the LS has beaten the S in head-to-head competition. So the LS is better than the S, and I'd ask you to point to any aspect that the S trumps the LS in. Any ????
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Maybe Tissots are not better than Omegas, but the LS has beaten the S in head-to-head competition.

    The Lexus LS beat the MB S in head to head competition. Please englighten me with the facts? It appears the world and myself are quite ignorant.
  • garyh1garyh1 Posts: 386
    I didn’t say the top view was the driver view. Essentially, I said that it contains the IMPRESSION I will see when I finally get to sit in the driver’s seat. It is the shot that gives me the sense of actual proportions, dimensions and ambience.

    Actually, I think Len was right the first time on this issue. First, I have to say that we haven't actually sat in the new car yet, so we are really all just speculating. And certainly, as designman said, pictures can lie. But the low perspective of the first pic is not one that the driver would ever see to create any impression. I am pretty confidant of that based on experience with the current model, which has a very similar long lower expanse on the passenger side. What isn't so obvious is that most of the lower mass drops away towards the front of the car, so it doesn't show up to either the passenger or the driver nearly as much as this picture seems to suggest. For example, the items on the lower part of the driver's side can't be seen at all by the driver; as a matter of fact, one of my complaints is you have to feel your way to hitting the gas tank flap opening button - there is no way you can see it without twisting your body way down low.

    And I actually like the shape of the center stack more than in the current model. To my eye, the NAV and electronics at the top of the stack coordinate much better with the lower portion; the one thing I don't like about the current version is that there is no smooth transition from the dash materials at the top to the wood panels below. The vertical ribbon of buttons along the sides in the new version better pull the whole stack together.

    I also like the more monotone color of the display model better than the high-contrast two-tone version in the pics you posted (even though both my LS and my MB E have the similar two tone beige/taupe theme).

    Yikes, now I'm disagreeing with designman and, perhaps, Len, too. Next, Pat is going to brand me a troll! ;)
  • You mean sort of like that remark by designman about the dash in the LS 460 being too high? He certainly hasn't driven it nor has he been inside it. Maybe he just needs a booster chair?
  • lexusilexusi Posts: 65
    Although in my IMHO I do not judge the car by its sales, but thats why manufacturers produce cars? to sell no to display?! anyhow, Lexus sales were shown against BMW sales, and here is the other part of the story, the MB sales (USA only), lets see how tremendous it is! yah BTW, here is an intersting point:

    "Posting its best sales month with 31,192 units sold in December, MBUSA marked its strongest year-end finish with a 17.2 percent increase over last December's sales, the company's former best sales month on record"

    this is for you to judge -->>> "The GS 300/430 achieved best-ever year-end combined sales of 33,457 units"

    the GS alone beats the MB sales!! no need to say more :)

    read this:

    Lexus sales

    source:
    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/01/04/205146.html

    Total MBUSA sales,

    2004 - 221,610
    2003 - 218,717
    2002 - 213,225
    2001 - 206,638
    2000 - 205,614

    an increase of 1.00% hmm no 1.1%?? is that tremendous according to europhiles dictionary?

    Source:
    www.mbusa.com

    see the details below!! and keep saying MB sales increased tremendously!!

    Model Dec '05 Dec '04Monthly % YTD 2005 YTD 2004 Yearly %

    C-CLASS 9,806 8,870 10.6% 60,658 69,251 -12.4%

    E-CLASS 6,334 7,576 -16.4% 50,383 58,954 -14.5%

    S-CLASS 1,912 2,378 -19.6% 16,036 20,460 -21.6%

    CL-CLASS 196 255 -23.1% 1,320 2,683 -50.8%

    SL-CLASS 1,098 1,081 1.6% 10,080 12,885 -21.8%

    CLK-CLASS 1,748 2,115 -17.4% 18,227 22,556 -19.2%

    SLK-CLASS 976 1,701 -42.6% 11,278 7,360 53.2%

    CLS-CLASS 1,230 n/a n/a 14,835 n/a n/a

    R-CLASS 2,430 n/a n/a 4,959 n/a n/a

    M-CLASS 5,340 2,458 117.2% 34,959 25,681 36.1%

    G-CLASS 122 173 -29.5% 1,334 1,491 -10.5%

    SLR 200 45 344.4%

    Maybach 152 244 -37.7%

    GRAND TOTAL 31,192 26,607 17.2% 224,421 221,610 1.3%

    source:
    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/01/04/205146.html

    Once again i say, IMHO, i dont consider selling more is being the best although it is the main point of building cars, but if this figures are joined with top quality, top features and so, IMO, LEXUS IS THE BEST :)

    global Lexusization :P

    Lexusi
  • lexusilexusi Posts: 65
    MB sales did increase, but well not tremodously!! they did a good job, thanx to lexus that taught them how to build luxury cars, i say, this belongs to lexus, otherwise MB cars were/will be the same until now if there was no lexus :)

    2004 - 221,610
    1993 - 61,899

    something around 3.6 % !

    will you compare it to lexus growth!! hmm NA!


    Lexusization of the world

    Lexusi
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    The Lexus LS beat the MB S in head to head competition. Please englighten me with the facts? It appears the world and myself are quite ignorant.

    You asked, and I am pleased to inform: Better be ready with excuses....

    1) 2004 Motor Trend Comparo (1st = A8L, 2nd = LS430)
    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/luxury/112_0409_class/index14.html

    2) 2004 Car and Driver $70K sedan comparo (1st = LS430)

    Ranking (last place = S430)
    6. Mercedes-Benz S430, Price as tested $87,975
    5. Volkswagen Phaeton, Price as tested $69,800 est.
    4. Audi A8L, Price as tested $74,690
    3. BMW 745i, Price as tested $79,145
    2. Jaguar XJ8, Price as tested $64,595
    1. Lexus LS430, Price as tested $70,380

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?article_id=7248 (it may be archived now, but I have the actual print copy - Dec 2003 edition)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Ok so two reviews confirm what you are saying! What does that prove?? There were magazine reviews from prior years that showed the Lexus IS300 and the Infiniti G35 as superior to the BMW 3 series. Despite these reviews the BMW 3 series remains the benchmark sport sedan.

    Sport sedans are my focus. I have no expertise in luxury crusers as it appears you do not have expertise in i6 engines . So I am left with my last secret weapon that will be able to provide a whole slew of other reviews that shows the superiority of the MB S.

    Let me alert my secret weapon: Calling Merc1 , calling Merc1, I do need your assistance!!!
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Without relying on lots of data, for the moment, let us consider that WITHOUT Lexus, what choices would the high end buyer have? Then go ahead and add Lexus to that mix, and there is going to be subtraction at SOME level from the other possible selections. That substraction, theoretically, should be equal to the number of Lexus's sold. Simple enough. Lexus has shaken things up. The flip side is that competition is usually a good thing for those that can endure the process. For those that can't endure it, it's bye-bye-baby.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    2004? Who cares about 2004? Who's looking backwards?
    That's ancient history in this dynamic business.

    My prediction may come as a shock so brace yourselves, loyal readers:
    The BMW 760Li will win the next Car And Driver HELM Comparo, assuming the testers don't die of boredom after testing the Toyota/Lexus entry and are still around to test the other vehicles. Hope they test that one last, so we will at least be able to read the notes of the dynamic vehicles that blend luxury and performance left behind by the comotose testers.
    Why the heck do you think BMW is advertising so much at that magazine?
    At the very least, they should be able to come up with a win after spending all those Euros.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    And BMW can and will endure it.
    Thanks to Japanese quality control, BMW has noticeably offered a much more reliable product.
    We consumers all benefit from healthy competition.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Dont think so, chief. The BMW is yesterday's news. The winner of the next full size comparo will be either a Lexus or a Mercedes. The BMW will be midpack with Audi, and Jag. No Phaetons this time.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    hpowder you are beginning to be indoctrinated by those Lexicans. What has reliability got to do with performance/handling/ride/luxury/design/ exterior and interior fit and finish?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Sport sedans are my focus

    Thanks for letting us know. Unfortunately, this is NOT a sport sedan forum, so what do we make of your past & present contributions ???

    I have no expertise in luxury crusers as it appears you do not have expertise in i6 engines....

    As to I6 engines, what makes u conclude as such ? Pls speak for yourself, don't rope me into the "I have no expertise" excuse....
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Thanks to Japanese quality control, BMW has noticeably offered a much more reliable product.

    hpowder you are beginning to be indoctrinated by those Lexicans. What has reliability got to do with performance/handling/ride/luxury/design/ exterior and interior fit and finish?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    2004? Who cares about 2004? Who's looking backwards?
    That's ancient history in this dynamic business.


    Of course its history bcos your German car brands lost to the LS430... Figures. These are auto rags who love the German cars but are objective enough to declare the LS430 as top notch among its peers.... Bitter pill for some German car fans to swallow, no doubt. BTW, the current 2006 versions of these cars are mostly the same, with a few engine upgrades (745 --> 750). So what's really different between MY2004 and MY2006 for the HELM comparo ??? You tell me...
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    Gary - I feel the same way you do. Sometimes I'm fumbling for the seat heater buttons and a few other things. But having experience with the current car and the RX I know full well you never will see that view of the first image Dman posted - unless you get into the car on your knees.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Please tell me another manufacturer that offers such a smooth I6?

    Toyota offers an I6. Was in the IS300 as recent as MY2005. This engine is silky smooth, but old technology compared to the new direct injection V6 in the IS350. More fuel efficient, more tunable, and newer more modern technology... Out with the old, buddy... This is 2006 !
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Actually, I think Len was right the first time on this issue. First, I have to say that we haven't actually sat in the new car yet, so we are really all just speculating. And certainly, as designman said, pictures can lie. But the low perspective of the first pic is not one that the driver would ever see to create any impression.

    Well there’s really no right and wrong here. I was just giving my impressions and opinion. Let me put it this way. I pretty much know exactly what I see in photos, can parse the jump from 3D to 2D and can judge the technical details involved—size, proportion, dimension, scale etc. What I am saying is, according to what I see in the photos, I know almost exactly what I am going to see and the ambience I am going too feel when I sit in that driver’s seat. I am in no way speculating in this regard. Now, others may need to do it live but trust me, I don’t. 99% of the time I know what I am going to see live. You will rarely if ever hear me say it looked one way in the photos and another way live. For all intent and purpose, I HAVE sat in the front seat of the LS460. Same goes for the exterior—I have seen it live. Same with the MB S. By the time they actually get here, they're a year old already.

    The only thing we really can’t judge from the photos is textures, material quality, build quality, the fine distinctions in color etc. But I never give opinions on these aspects at this stage.

    However let's not confuse physical perception with aesthetic opinion. They are very separate.
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