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High End Luxury Cars

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  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    "For '06 they tweaked the suspension and gave it new 17" wheels, hopefully with better tires."

    LG, for those reasons and a few more, that's why a white '06 EX-V6 is my daily drive to the city.

    Very few cars(especially at this price point) offers what it has. Sure the styling could be better, but for 27k, you get the following.

    :0-60 in 6.00 seconds, with MT 6.5 with AT, and this with a powerplant the is 20-30 horses down on the newest powerplants. And it also drinks regular gas in the process.

    :A ride/handling compromise that's the envy of all in it's class, with the Mazda 6 and possibly the Sonata V6 being the exceptions.

    : And quality that has yet to be duplicated, not even the Camry's reliablity scores can bring it down, altho they're both at the top of the heap in this regard.

    I don't mention it much on this board as it's not appropiate, but everytime it sparks talk, I'm in on it.

    BTW: The tires on the '06 are the same found on the TL(Bridgestone Potenza REA 050- very sticky all-seasons.)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    MB has patented it's new Xenon lighting technology that uses sensors to evaluate different terrain in the road and adjusts the lighting accordingly, to maximize lighting on the road surface and direct-ahead driving and less so on oncoming traffic faces. The Smartbeam technology is similar to what DCX puts on the JGC, but better, OF COURSE! It's a freggin Benz for cryin out loud.

    The lights on my S600 are superior to all that I've ever experienced, including VW/Audi's supposed "Tri-Beam" lights.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    The only thing I really like about xenons is that when you see them in the rear view mirror, you know it ain't the man!

    ;-)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Doc, yes the IS nips at the 3-Series now...

    Blkhemi,

    To this day, the Doc has still been reluctant to post that he agrees with my original argument about Lexus targeting BMW. I keep wondering when he will come around on this. ;)

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Tag

    Couldn't be any clearer than not offering the stick in the 350.

    BMW wouldn't be caught dead making that mistake on a sports sedan!

    That's a Mercedes-esque mistake, which even Mercedes, luxury car among luxury cars, has since corrected.

    You can tell me anything. How about showing me you can hunt BMWs.

    Lexus can do a lot of things near=perfect. haven't seen them hunt BMWs. Would LOVE to see it! Would pay any price! :shades: But the GS is no 5-series. the IS is no 3-series. Not that that's required to be successful.

    Put it this way. I hope to agree with you someday soon. Really.

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The only thing I really like about xenons is that when you see them in the rear view mirror, you know it ain't the man!

    Every time I look in the rear view, I always look for those big rectangular inner mounted turn signals that the Crown Vic has. Pretty much all other cars (other than some other Fords) have the signals on the other side of the lights, which makes the Vic very easy to pick out.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    DOC,

    Here's the deal.

    Lexus doesn't have to be as good as a Bimmer . . . and they are NOT, IMO, in order for them to take market share.

    Market share isn't the whole pie here, just a slice . . . and in this case a slice without a stick, so far.

    There are enough people that will buy Lexus vehicles even when they are not necessarily superior in the true sense. They have always been "good enough" for a lot of consumers, and many think they are the best when others will disagree.

    Regarding the IS, it doesn't matter if it's a stick or not to enough people that are willing to put down the green stuff . . . and they are doing so in larger numbers than ever. These sales are not coming out of thin air, and are at the expense of sales elsewhere.

    Just like other attributes of "driving dynamics" don't matter with regards to the LS . . . it is simply "good enough" for many, and good enough to take market share. The same applies to the IS.

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,953
    That is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have ever heard. Why would anyone buy any car if they felt it was just good enough and that they could get a better car for the same price?

    Many people buy the Lexus over the BMW because they think that it is just a better car. Period. They want something that is good looking, reliable, and will hold its value over years. What many people don't want is some kind of "boy racer".

    When people vote by plunking down their hard earned cash they don't buy on principle. They are buying what they want and what they like.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Lexus vehicles...are not necessarily superior in the true sense

    Tagman, what in your view makes a vehicle "superior in the true sense"? Your definition of "superior in the true sense" might be "fun" and "handling", but the next guy's definition may differ.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    are afraid to buy BMW's because of the unreliability stigma.
    They are totally aware that BMW's are far superior in driving dynamics than Lexus vehicles. They are simply afraid, even though reliability is a dead issue with BMW's at the current time.

    So, because of this irrational fear, they buy barges like the LS and put up with foot wells that are too narrow, seats better for sleeping than driving, acceleration with a built-in "lag" which has to be upgraded time after time with computer software, a V8 which cannot break the 6 second 0-60mph barrier despite Lexus claims, grabby brakes and worst of all, it will be known in ill-advised Edsellian history for all time, that it can now park itself.
    Which demographic of people who can afford this vehicle would need such extraordinary help in parking it? Why, the 75-85 year old affluent retirees, of course-the group the LS has been targeted at. I don't need a car that can park itself. Do you?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    acceleration with a built-in "lag" which has to be upgraded time after time with computer software

    I'm sorry, but as a BMW guy, you can't pick on any Lexus for requiring "computer software upgrades". BMW is very, VERY guilty on that one.
  • I think that other than the computer glitches on the 7 series, BMW offers very reliable cars. And it's a great bonus knowing that all maintanince and repairs are covered for the 4 yrs 50K. I have had great overall experiences with my BMWs and to me their driving dynamics are tops.
    (So much so that when I was shopping for an SUV for my wife, I crossed shopped against the Cayenne and even though it was much less $, I felt that the X5 offered a superior driving experience)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Well anecdotally speaking, I have had 3 BMW's since 1993 with no computer glitches. Never any lag. I only experienced this on 2 2005 LS430's.

    Ocassionally, I have come home from intense parties and the BMW pinwheel appeared to be spinning, but I do not attribute that to any BMW computer glitches.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    When I drove the 4.4 X5, the driving dynamics were incredible for such a tall, heavy vehicle. Add the beautiful BMW interior and the unbelievable seat travel and you have an irresistible deal. Well... almost. Only on the turns did I realize this was no BMW sedan. So I got the 545i for the same deal as the 4.4 X5.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    they buy barges like the LS and put up with foot wells that are too narrow, seats better for sleeping than driving, acceleration with a built-in "lag" which has to be upgraded time after time with computer software, a V8 which cannot break the 6 second 0-60mph barrier despite Lexus claims, grabby brakes

    The preceeding commentary is indigenous to Hp, and does not represent the views anyone else. Production models may perform differently. "Lag" indigenous to turbo models, which doesn't apply here. Test drive at dealer for details.

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    There is nothing "wrong" with Lexus vehicles, nor did I intend to imply that BMWs are better vehicles, except maybe in that they are more fun-to-drive.

    Lexus has consistently proven that their cars/SUVs are more than "good enough".

    The only question is do they want to make a 335i-hunter, just for the fun of it?

    Lexus doesn't want drivers like me. With the Lexus' looks and power, and interior, it is hard to top as is, but there is still money on the table.

    "The Passionate Pursuit" ends with a stick and/or AWD option. They reconfigured VDIM, which I thought would be the hard part.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Holy Smokes, did I get misunderstood here or WHAT!!!

    It doesn't matter whether or not the Bimmers are better or not or need the stick or not. Some have said that it does matter, and I've been saying all along that the Lexus vehicles have been "good enough" in the eyes of those buying them to make the purchase. Of course "good enough" to those making the purchase is that it represents the "best" choice. Some have argued that without the stick shift, the IS can't compete with the 3-Series. I agree that it's not near the car, but I know that there are enough buyers out there that don't give a hoot about that.

    Some buyers of a Lexus IS, for example, KNOW their Lexus IS will not outperform a 3-Series, but its performance is "good enough" for them to justify the vehicle, because it has other attributes that they like more than the Bimmer. This is a no-brainer.

    The point being made is this:

    I have argued originally that Lexus will take an increasing slice of market share from BMW, as more and more consumers choose Lexus products than other alternatives, some being BMWs, as well as Mercedes and others. Ljflx agreed, as did some others, but he has left this forum.

    I have heard the argument that the IS is no match for the BMW because it has no stick. I have countered that the lack of a stick doesn't stop the IS from being perceived as "good enough" for many buyers who still prefer and purchase the IS even with an automatic and think it is a better car in their minds, whether or not is really is according to him, to me, or according to the concensus of most comps.

    My opinion is that the 3-series is in fact a better vehicle than the IS, but that doesn't matter. The Lexus IS will get enough folks to consider it as a viable alternative, and they will in fact purchase it. To them, it is "good enough" and doesn't have to win a race around the track . . . it has other redeeming qualities those folks prefer to make it their top pick.

    And this brings me full circle to my original argument . . . that Lexus will increasingly take a greater slice of market share from BMW, as well as Mercedes Benz and others. This argument is not limited to the IS, as it even applies to the LS, as I argued originally. It is no coincidence that the LS has a Bangled rear treatment.

    Anyone that doesn't yet see that Lexus has had BMW in their sights hasn't been paying attention, IMO.

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    OK, I understand what you meant now, sorry for the misinterpretation. I was with you on the original premise (Lexus vs BMW) and somewhere along the line might have stated it even before you, though I don't really remember and don't really care; in any event as I have said before, Lexus management 1+ year ago stated that they were increasingly targeting BMW and a younger demographic generally. So I regard it as fact and not opinion that they are targeting BMW moreso that in the past. The only opinion is that they will succeed at least to some extent, and on that we are agreed.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I always thought you were one of those that was in agreement with me on this. I am glad that you have confirmed this now. The only thing that we have been waiting for is sales data to back it up, which can take a long time.

    But . . . it might be that we are finally starting to see actual data to support our shared view. While the market itself is a growing total number, the percentage of sales that credit to BMW and to Lexus, as well as the others will continue to tell us what is happening . . . and what is happening is that Lexus may be encroaching on BMW, not just in our theory, but in a measureable way.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Houdini,
    I hope my post 20706 helped to clarify.

    There are few car purchases made where the buyer thinks his car does everything "best". Overall, the buyer usually believes that his vehicle does enough things to satisfy his original intentions for the vehicle. But everything? NO!

    For example, it is very safe to say that most buyers of the Lexus LS already know that it will not outperform a BMW 7-series or a Mercedes S-Class.

    But it is darned certain that the performance is "good enough" for the LS buyer to enjoy the other reasons to make the purchase of the car . . . possibly the interior ergonomics, or the Consumer Reports reliability ratings, or perhaps that "soft cushy" feeling, or the perceived "value", or a combination of all of those things.

    To the BMW buyer, the interior ergonomics are obviously not the very best out there, but are "good enough", because the primary reasons for buying the car are the thrill of the driving dynamics, and styling, for example. They make the BMW the "best" choice for that particular buyer with those prioirties.

    Typically, IMO, there are some things about most of our cars that are "good enough" . . . we know they are not the very best, but we tolerate them because there are other features that have higher priorities for us.

    I hope that clarifies my use of the words "good enough" for you.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    "Targeting BMW" implies making cars designed to compete with BMWs in their realm, which I don't see happening.

    The only thing the IS shares with the 3 is a similar size.

    The GS and 5 couldn't be more different in countenance or comportment.

    The LS has a similar, but far superior, rear end, but is different in every other way. Lexus isn't making the LS a super sports sedan. The LS is a luxury car, first, and foremost. Not a BMW-type car.

    Taking market share from BMW, and targeting BMW are two different things. The New IS doesn't "target" the 3 any more than the IS300. If anything, it took a step back, giving up the inline six, and manual tranny, and many of the intangible driving dynamics inherent in the Altezza.

    Lexus is not, and will not make BMWs. If Lexus "targets" BMW, IMO, it will lose touch with it's own successful strategy. Lexus is doing it right, regardless of wheteher the IS is a true sports sedan or not.

    I vote not....yet. It has all the potential in the world.

    Here's hoping we get more of a good thing in 2008. ;)

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    "Targeting BMW" implies making cars designed to compete with BMWs in their realm,

    Not exactly. In their "near" realm and "perceived" realm is often plenty, especially with a company like Lexus, who has so many other things going for it.

    Taking market share from BMW, and targeting BMW are two different things.

    Not necessarily. It depends upon the strategic goal . . . and with Lexus, it is likely about coming close enough to take sales away. The different cars we are talking about are in different "segments". Lexus wants to be a player in these different segments. Even the SC is an attempt at a "segment". Does it target the SL? It is NOTHING near as good as the SL, or is it in your opinion? And if it weren't so ugly, would it take more market share?

    Point is, that the IS doesn't have to be a clone to compete in the segment, and the IS and 3-series share a similar arena. The IS indeed has targeted the 3-series, in terms of segment AND sales, just as the LS has targeted the 7-Series and S-Class in terms of segment and sales.

    Lexus is not, and will not make BMWs.

    They don't need to. They are already doing what is necessary. Make vehicles in the different segments that are competitive enough to win over the hearts and/or minds of consumers in order to gain market share.

    TagMan
  • guestguest Posts: 774
    So then you agree with me?

    The GS "targets" the E-Class as much as it "targets" the 5-series.

    The IS "targets" the C-Class as much as the 3.

    The LS obviously "targets" the S-Class more than the 7, or at least I would hope so.

    DrFill
  • Cars of the world are not neatly lined up single-file from the worst to the best . . . worst in what? and best in what? At every price point, there are competing design goals and target audience to be met, every vehicle is a compromise. If handling is the only thing people want, BMW would not exist or succeed at all . . . Go-carts, Lotus Exige, Corvette all offer better handling than BMW's at the same price points. Buyers typically make a compromise choice among reliability, comfort, safety, luxury, performance (which can be subdivided into handling and accelearation). "Best" and "good enough" are only really meaningful in specific categories. For example, some think BMW's are good enough for reliability . . . some think Lexus are good enough for handling . . . some think BMW is good enough for accelearation . . . some think BMW is good enough for luxury . . . some think BMW is good enough for comfort, etc. etc.
  • SC is not targetted at SL at all . . . just look at the bench seat in the back. If one has to pick an MB model and call that what Lexus was aiming at, CL would have been the closest.
  • And as a side show to the three-tier segmentation, Lexus also approach the market with ES and RX, so that they do not have to make compromises to the platforms in order to make products like 525i possible. So yes, Lexus slices and dices the market place a little differently from the other makers . . . which was what making me all the more surprised to see that IS sales alone almost caught up with 3 series sales. Holy smokes!
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,953
    Different strokes for different folks. In my mind I can't understand why anyone would settle for a BMW or Mercedes when they could have a Lexus. But I guess some feel that the BMW or Mercedes is good enough for them. Go figure.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    SC is not targetted at SL at all . . . just look at the bench seat in the back. If one has to pick an MB model and call that what Lexus was aiming at, CL would have been the closest.

    Not a chance.

    The SC's rear seats were included to classify the vehicle as a four-passenger, but there was never any intention for it to be truly functional, as it proves itself to be dysfunctional.

    The CL, while a little tight, is a fully-functional four-passenger vehicle.

    BIG difference.

    Most all the original comps to Mercedes, when the SC appeared on the scene, were regarding the SL.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Cars of the world are not neatly lined up single-file from the worst to the best

    Unless you are the editors of Car & Driver magazine! Or perhaps Consumer Reports editors to a small degree. Who is it that lists the "Ten Best Cars" every year?

    Seriously though, what's your point? Where could someone find such a line-up anyway? Unusual idea, to put it politely.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    So yes, Lexus slices and dices the market place a little differently from the other makers . . . which was what making me all the more surprised to see that IS sales alone almost caught up with 3 series sales. Holy smokes!

    OMG, are you actually in agreement with me on something?

    I should probably notify the authorities, print this page and frame it. ;)

    TagMan
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