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High End Luxury Cars

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  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Thanks for the follow-up Tony.

    I have found that quite a few manufacturers do not give the same amount of respect to the front passenger as the driver. Sometimes the driver gets lumbar support and the passenger doesn't. Frequently, the driver's seat can be adjusted in more ways than the front passenger seat. Therefore it does not surprise me that you reported the seat travel of the front passenger seat is a few inches less than the driver's seat in your A8.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Not even the Brady Bunch can stop Peyton Manning and the Colts. Talk about turnovers making a difference.
  • MSRP is not the only way people buy cars (understatement of the day :-) In fact, hardly anyone pays MSRP nowadays. The lease payment of around $300/mo or less for X3 nowadays makes the vehicle very much in the low-$30k or even sub-$30k range in reality regardless what the MSRP says.

    You might be right that Lexus might just be able to squeeze out another $3-5k by attaching the Lexus marque to the RAV4 . . . does have to wonder though if such a strategy would dilute brand like what Ford did to Mercury. 10-15% price differntiation is just not enough to differentiate brands. I certainly agree that it's far more likely that an entry Lexus based on the RAV4 than based on IS. If nothing else, the RAV platform and upper works are all already there. IS/GS platform is probably also more expensive to manufacturer. That being said, the existence of the V6 RAV4 at $30k does make it somewhat problematic for brand management, unless Toyota/Lexus wants the Toyota brand to move upmarket too, in which case a Lexus version of RAV4 should not be attempted at all.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    You guys have way too much time on your hands on Saturdays!

    I have actually forgotten where I stand on the Lexus/BMW issue!


    But if someone dissed Mercedes and you were buried in an avalanche on a Mt. Everest expedition, you'd manage to post a response in no time.

    :P
  • The difference in option lists between X3 and Rav4 comes down to:

    1. Park distance control
    2. Xenon light
    3. Servotronic steering (which as we know real enthusiasts hate)
    4. Rear entertainment system (which RAV4 has but X3 does not; not a big deal for drivers either, just one of the things that stand out in the option list).

    The two vehicles are about the same size, with RAV having more power and torque, and 350lbs less weight (nearly double the difference between 3 series and 5 series) . . . so which one having better driving dynamics should be quite obvious.

    I do agree that at this point in time, the BMW brand can sell a car a couple grand more than the Toyota brand can even if they are selling the same exact car. The heavy discounting and incentives that BMW is offering though does reflect the market reality that the difference is actually much much smaller than the respective MSRP's are suggesting.

    BTW, at first glance, I thought that Land Rover was a Ford. Ourch! ;-) They gotta change that oval marque or do something about making it looking less like the blue oval.
  • How much is that "paint" option? and does it come with flame throwing anti-theft system? ;-)
  • B04, did you mean to imply that the Rav4 has better driving dynamics than the X3, due to lighter weight, and more horsepower? Just curious
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Soon you should expect to see a very cool brand new LR2 from Land Rover by May of '07, and a brand new MLK from Mercedes in about a year or so. Then the X3 will have some nice company in its own playing field.

    There's also the Volvo XC50, Audi Q3, and probably a Saab 9-6X based on the next generation Saturn Vue and its Opel twin.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The difference in option lists between X3 and Rav4 comes down to:

    The difference between a mainstream car and a luxury car come down to more than xenon lights and a few gadgets. Just look at the cars, not the option sheets. I just don't think both cars will appeal to the same person. The Toyota competes with other $25-30K utes, The CX-7, Vue, Murano, Edge, etc. Its just not in the same class as the BMW. BMW basically invented the X3's class, and just as it took a few years for everybody else to catch up with the ML320 and the RX300, its going to take a few years for everybody eles to catch up with the X3.

    image
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  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The difference between a mainstream car and a luxury car come down to more than xenon lights and a few gadgets. Just look at the cars, not the option sheets.

    There's also the Volvo XC50, Audi Q3, and probably a Saab 9-6X based on the next generation Saturn Vue and its Opel twin.

    Thanks for the good additions, lexusguy. As I said, this segment is just warming up and is just now getting out of the gate. Adding those models and others to the BMW X3, Land Rover LR2, and Mercedes MLK will provide some good competitive choices. Ultimately, it should be a hot segment, IMO.

    And, BTW, I agree with you that the RAV4 is not in the same league as the X3.

    TagMan
  • Was it just me, or was Brightness04 implying that the Rav has better driving dynamics than an X3 due to more horsepower, and less weight? I'm dying for an answer to this btw.
    Yeah, the Rav4 is not on the same zip code as the bimmer. The segment is heating up to be sure. I think the Q5 is going to be a winner.
  • Look at the cars indeed. Both interiors are quite spartan (btw, is that even the RAV4 limited?). Before the most recent refresh, the X3 exterior, with that black bumper, looked even lower class than the RAV4. IMHO, RAV4 and CRV started the class back in 1996-7, called compact SUV's. BMW just decided to join the game with X3 in the last couple years. The original X3 was about as stripped bare as it can be . . . a sea of hard plastic, with a black bumper to boot.

    BTW, the option lists were brought up because Tag stated that X3 is higher class because it can be optioned much higher.
  • The 2007 X3 with what used to be marketted as the Si engine for sedans and roadsters may have improved a bit, the original X3 2.5 and 3.0 (184hp and 215hp vs. the 255hp Si engine in 2007) were snails compared to the RAV4 V6 with 265hp and weighs 350lbs less.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,645
    I was at the game last night, I still have a headache... Manning/Harrison/Wayne just made some fabulous plays where it was as if each member of "The Brady Bunch" were carrying guns and at the worst possible moment would proceed to shoot themselves in the foot... :cry: And that "Taunting" call on Troy Brown??????????? :mad: Not to mention the two "gifts" Adam Vinatieri gave to us! The best team playing last night won, hopefully when next the Colts and Pats meet, the truly best team will win! If only Brady had a Marvin or Reggie...

    Just saw a new Bentley Continental coming back from lunch, surely a HELM...(on topic now!)

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Tag stated that X3 is higher class because it can be optioned much higher.

    That is a reason, but not the ONLY reason. The X3 is in a higher class, and the rest of us see that. You can agree or disagree, but don't try to hammer that you are right. There is no right or wrong here, only opinions. Mine is that the X3 is in a small luxury suv segment, joined by other vehicles that were mentioned by lexusguy and myself. IMO, this segment does not include the RAV4.

    Now that's all I'm posting on this, because I'm signing out and will return later with posts about HELMS. I don't mind going off-topic a little, but I certainly don't want to dwell on it.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    BMW basically invented the X3's class, and just as it took a few years for everybody else to catch up with the ML320 and the RX300, its going to take a few years for everybody eles to catch up with the X3.

    ? The ML and RX don't compete with the X3. I take you meant the X5's class? Even though the ML was the one that invented the X5/RX/MDX class.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Likley so, it is part of the MBFC rules (sec 1.article 1).

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The 2007 X3 with what used to be marketted as the Si engine for sedans and roadsters may have improved a bit, the original X3 2.5 and 3.0 (184hp and 215hp vs. the 255hp Si engine in 2007) were snails compared to the RAV4 V6 with 265hp and weighs 350lbs less.

    The Shelby Mustang has an enormous amount of horsepower. That doesn't make it a luxury car. The Camry V6 has more power and can outrun a 525i. Does that mean the Camry and 5 series are competitors?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I take you meant the X5's class? Even though the ML was the one that invented the X5/RX/MDX class.

    Thats exactly what I was saying, I didn't think it was unclear. I wasn't trying to say that the X3 competes with the ML and RX. I was saying that the X3 and RDX two car class situation right now is very similar to the ML, RX situation in the late '90s, when the mid-lux SUV segment was a two car class. Now there are loads of mid-lux SUVs. The same thing will happen with the compact lux segment a few years from now.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Ok, got it.

    M
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    What makes a vehicle truly high end? Come talk about it in this new discussion.

    Personally, I don't think either the RAV4, the RDX or the X3 qualify, however. ;)
  • Fair point. OTOH, just because a car carries a luxury brand does not make it a luxury car either. Witness A and B classes of MB, and to a large degree C class too.

    BTW, if stripped compact SUV's with luxury brands make for a market segment (a fair point considering this is a forum on luxury marques, although not quite high end :-) Landrover Freelander with the equally underpowered engine and stripped interior probably was the first entry, two years or so before X3. I'd certainly agree that luxury marques can help sell cars, even if bare-bones ones that are not luxurious at all, at a somewhat marked up prices.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    The RAV 4 is now the equal of the X3? What?

    So 10 extra hp V-6 and a size that's now within the size of the X3 is now meant to say they're in the same class?

    First off, the RAV4 ain't no X3, nowhere close. Yes, it has slightly more power, but the X3 will flat out smoke it in performance. And with RAV4's rather pedastrian interior as opposed to the more premium materials in the X3, well you actually do get what you pay for.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,921
    IMO I did not see much difference in the two interiors. I know nothing about these two vehicles but to me, neither one is that upscale. The X3 has a reputation of riding like a buckboard and the Rav is just too cramped looking. If someone said I had to buy one of the two I would take the Rav on pricing.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Well, as I mentioned, neither of these vehicles qualify for a "high end" label and I'm not sure why we are talking about them here.

    But please, I'd like to hear your reasoning fer or aginst. Come here and do some 'splainin' ;): What makes a vehicle truly high end?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I was at the game last night, I still have a headache.

    Very cool and lucky to have been there . . . but OUCH! Now don't complain too much about losing, cause you've still got a darned terrific team there, unlike some of the rest of us this season!

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I'd certainly agree that luxury marques can help sell cars, even if bare-bones ones that are not luxurious at all, at a somewhat marked up prices.

    It comes down to what "is" luxury. There's the badge of course, but if luxury means things like multi-adjustable power seats, leather, dual-zone climate, etc. are must have features, there are many cars from luxury brands that would fail, and many mainstream cars that would pass. I'm of the opinion that an A4 stripper is still a luxury car, and a fully loaded Jetta GLI is not.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    blkhemi - I just know you will appreciate this information, as will a few other posters that are aware of Audi's ascention.

    Here's the article:

    Audi heading for new record figures in 2006

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Yeah, I was aware of Audi's impressive gains. Just a tidbit for all of the naysayers that Audi doesn't compare or is obsolete.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    "I'm of the opinion that an A4 stripper is still a luxury car, and a full loaded Jetta GLI is not."

    You couldn't have put it better. Tbat cloth-seated, single-zone AC, 16 inch wheeled is still more of a luxury car than that full-leathered, 18" wheeled, dual-zone AC GLI, no matter how much the Jetta closes in on the Audi's price.

    Is the $38K Passat 3.6 4Motion more luxury than the 35-40k IS, 330i, TL, A4, CTS or even ES350? Absolutely not.

    Or the fully loaded 36k Nissan Maxima over it's $34k G35S counterpart? Heck no, not even close.

    So no, price doesn't even scratch the surface.
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