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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    the S vs. LS vs. A8 vs. 7 Series vs. XJ has as much relevance to me as watching Monarch butterflies fluttering around during spring.

    So this C & D article may be a victory for some, but certainly not for me.


    Gosh, this is the HELC forum isn't it? It has all the revelevance in the world here.

    You're just having too much darned fun with your 3 series. ;)

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Welcome back. As you can see I was duking it out with the Doc for a while there and going it solo. I think I held our ground.

    That C&D comparo? Very interesting! I'm not really THAT surprised, if you've been reading my posts.

    BTW, you'll be interested to learn that I have decided that I will probably not be taking delivery of that Porsche Targa with the Tiptronic tranny. I didn't like the Tip.

    So, if I'm going automatic tranny here, of course I drove the XK and the SL, and my current favorite is the SL550. Gorgeous car.

    What gets me is that I suddently realized that I've never owned an SL, and I've always admired them. So, I'll be taking more time this week to drive the SL some more, and check out the different options and accessories.

    Could be an SL550 will be my next driver. I'll keep you posted.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    That is exactly what I meant by the article being biased. No surprise.

    It is Car and Driver, not Limousine Quarterly. If their performance angle was a bias, it was at least transparent, and they were consistent with it.

    Your post made it sound like Mercedes literally paid for their first place finish.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "Helm"? What's a "helm"?

    As for the rest, get real, people.
    BMW makes the best performing vehicles across its entire sedan line. It has no competition. Protesting this fact is simply rationalization.

    How Lexus turns out the ridiculous vehicles they do should be thoroughly investigated. It's absolutely scandalous.

    I do believe the dearth of posts "over yonder" symbolizes the extreme disappointment of those who have seen and driven the new LS 460 after the manic anticipation of something wonderfully different only to be left with a familiar variation of same-old, same-old.

    I agree with a previous posting. Lexus vehicles are luxury Toyotas, plain and simple. Uninspiring like Toyotas, with some soft cushy leather seats that you can fall asleep in and some upscale wood.

    Why don't I talk about BMW's here? Simple. There is little to criticize. Beyond the iDrive and rather drab interiors, BMW's are just about perfect for lovers of driving. No foot well problems. No leg hitting the console. A perfect driving position, etc;

    Why all the LS 460 talk? Speaking for myself, I find it fascinating that Lexus can turn out such consistently uninspired vehicles year after year and still remain financially solvent.
    All I can do is shake my head in amazement.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    hpowders - now you are making sense. That's a passionate good post.

    I agree with a previous posting. Lexus vehicles are luxury Toyotas, plain and simple.

    Posted by yours truly, athough I used the words "upscale Toyotas".

    Take care,

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes. "upscale Toyotas" does indeed say it better.

    How Toyota/Lexus gets away with using the same exterior for most of their sedan line is beyond me.

    I would be so disappointed if shopping for an LS 460, not just for its uninspired styling, but also, how closely it resembles the Camry. The ES 350 is more of a looker given the same styling theme, and that vehicle isn't exactly awe-inspiring.

    It would also be nice to see some intelligent debating points issued from the Lexus camp, instead of the usual poison darts whose aim does more damage to the character assassins than it does to the rest of us.

    Come on folks, surely you can write some articulate points about why the LS 460 should be taken seriously by the rest of us.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Come on folks, surely you can write some articulate points about why the LS 460 should be taken seriously by the rest of us.

    'cause CR says so. ;)

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    CR will be testing the LS 460 and MB S-Class in an upcoming 2007 issue, for what it's worth, which isn't much.

    Also to be tested by CR next year will be the 2007 MDX vs the new X5. Hopefully it will be a V-6 X5 to make it a fair fight.
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    Thanks dewey, I to was having trouble Tony
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,903
    Well,if they had thrown a 5 series or even a 3 series into the mix, either one would have won this comparo hands down since all the emphasis was on performance. A Honda Civic SI would probably have done even better.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    Nice to see the passionate H man back...I also found the bmw 7 steering to be feather light, along with the same complaints as you, the Mercedes looks, when seen in daylight, better and better after a shaky start, and with Tagman`s pictures of the Lexus vs Mercedes dash no comparison imo, the Lexus has been the reliable one, and the value leader ---but now I think way overpriced---If I were buying today and the mercedes is within ten or fifteen thousand dollars....hoooommmm.....Tony ps have been driving the Mazda rental, and I sure agree with you about the smaller sized cars being fun...I would think the bmw 3 would be all around great....
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Car And Driver tested 2 vehicles recently, A Lexus LS 460 and A BMW vehicle.
    Lexus reported a 0-60mph time of 5.4 seconds which the magazine's testers couldn't duplicate. They found the vehicle could only achieve 6 seconds.

    BMW reported its vehicle's 0-60mph time of 5.5 seconds. The magazine's testers found the time to be 4.8 seconds.

    Which company would you rather deal with?
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We've already talked at length about that. Why bring it up again? Oh, wait, I know - you are trying very hard to get under some people's skin.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Well thank you, Tony! You are truly a nice person. I spent Thanksgiving on Long Island's gold coast at my son-in-law's "chateau" where it's all 911's all the time.

    I believe I posted before Tagman that I feel the LS 460 was over-priced and would be "okay" at around $50k.
    Why anybody would shell out $64k and up is beyond me. It looks like a Toyota and has a driver's seat that causes you to sink down pretty deep. I have not driven one but I have seen the term "limo" used more than once in reviews of this vehicle and it is not meant as a compliment.
    I rented PT Cruiser and while it looked like a hearse, its steering was accurate and gave a good feeling for the road.

    Every Lexus I have driven has the same steering: light and numb.
    The question must be asked of Lexus: WHY???
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,903
    Which company would you rather deal with?

    Lexus, BMW, C&D. In that order.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Why would you or anyone prefer a LS460 as a high-end choice when there are better HELC's out there, which is not just my opinion, but overwhelmingly, general consensus?
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    When a company provides data to a testing organization and is found to be quite a bit off in a manner that can be perceived as dishonest, I believe this is significant.

    A few weeks ago someone (drfill maybe?) posted a summary of C&D 0-60 times for ALL Lexus vehicles, and if I remember correctly, something like half the C&D times were LOWER than the Lexus-provided times.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Well if you can find that post, I would find those 0-60 times quite interesting.
    Thanks!
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,903
    Look at it this way hp. Nobody should get a vote unless they actually buy one of these helc's. Check the U.S. sales numbers for these helcs for as many years as you care to. I think you will find out that the overwhelming consesus winner is the LS. It has been the top seller in this segment in the U.S. for a least 10 years in a row. So it appears that I am in the overwhelming majority here while you are simply a very vocal minority cult member.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    What's a "cult" member? Someone who has a different point of view than your own?

    The LS has only been the best seller in the past because of its price. It was a good value play for those who couldn't afford the real thing, a Mercedes Benz S-Class, and Lexus attempted to make those folks' fantasy a reality by designing the LS as a carbon copy of the MB externally. But all one had to do was drive one, and apparently, the bubble burst.

    At this point in time Lexus is IMO playing a very risky game in driving the LS price upward significantly without justifying it with measureable performance improvement. It is no longer an obvious value play anymore. I do believe sales will be affected. I could be wrong, but I could also be right.
    The LS 460 is in rather scarce supply at this time on the highways and streets that I frequent. And yes, I admit. You don't want to go there. :P
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,903
    Well, I would say the LS is where the "smart money" people go because after 4 or 5 years they cost considerably MORE than the S Class.

    I guess we will just have to wait and see which car will be the 2007 sales champ. As if we didn't already know. ;)

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Gosh, this is the HELC forum isn't it? It has all the revelevance in the world here

    OK Tagman fair enough the C & D results are highly relevant for this forum. But what really stands out with these results is the fact that the new LS is not meant to compete with the perfromance of a BMW 7 series. Which by the way reminds me of that tumultous dispute we had in a Lexus forum when you said the following words:

    "The LS will steal sales from a 7 Series"

    Can you recall that dispute ;)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The article was written from a performance perspective.

    That is exactly what I meant by the article being biased. No surprise.


    No Houdini it is not only in terms of performance that the LS was beaten by the S Class. According to C & D the S Class also beat the LS in terms of non-performance qualities such as driving comfort, rear seat space, trunk space and last but not least fit and finish.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The LS has only been the best seller in the past because of its price. It was a good value play for those who couldn't afford the real thing, a Mercedes Benz S-Class,

    Howard,

    I disagree. I think many if not most LS drivers can afford an S Class. I just think they chose an LS for its compelling value and top quality.

    A SWB LS460 at 62K US$ is compelling value. Unfortunately here in Canada a SWB LS460 at 76K US$ (85K CDN$) is no value at all, IMO.
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    Sounds like a dig at Audi. Audi doesn't need to be BMW or Mercedes-Benz as it does quite well as Audi. Sounds a bit of arrogant remark...as Audi every needed to be like them in the first place. As for the S6, one has to keep things in perspective. First of all, the S6 is 65 or so horsepower less than the M5. It is not mean as a competitor to the M5 or the MB. That is what the RS6 is and will be debuting at Geneva in March with a minimum of 530 bhp and higher. The RS6 is the competitor to the M5 and MB and it will easily outclass them and outperform them with ease. The S6 is not "lesser" in anyway as the M5 and the MB as it quite a beautiful performance machine. As for prestige Audi does quite well there qlobally. Let's not be fanboys - lacks credibility or worse yet it becomes like Autospies.com
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I get what you're saying here, but Audi has stated over and over that they want to be on equal footing in status/prestige/clout with Mercedes and BMW.

    The S6 is a in-between car or tweener as LG calls it. I don't think they set out to compete directly with the M5 or E63, but the media will compare it that way.

    I think you know by now that I think the world of Audi, but beyond you and I and some others here Audi is lacking big time in the image department with luxury car buyers in the U.S. That is something that can't be denied and the global argument can only go so far.

    You know I'm an Audi fan which is why I want better things for them, but I'm not surprised at Edmunds take on the S6.

    M
  • I am in the car search of a car for my wife. :confuse: Which one of these luxury rides would be perfect for her. I am about to buy myself a MB CLS55 AMG. What could I get my wife to keep her in the game with me. I really like the BMW 7 and MB S Class
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,903
    There were many inconsistancies in this report. They called the fit and finish on the LS "flawless", yet it scored lower than the S. The LS got much better mileage than the S but they scored the same. The S has the worst mpg of the 5 tested yet tied for first in the ratings. The LS was quieter than the S at idle, under acceleration, and cruising but the S was rated better on nvh. I could go on and on.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • WHich one will be better for my wife the MB S or BMW 7 Series. I want her to look good as well. :shades:
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yeah I saw all that, but I had no idea that a comparo had been done when I first started joining in the melee.

    Of course I vote for the SL550!

    I have to say I was really surprised by the placement of the LS460. The previous LS430 and LS400 have been winners at C&D for years so to have hugely superior LS460L place last was quite a shock to me. The thing is though the previous LS models never had to face the S500, only the S430 and then it was usually a few years after the S430 and previous S420 were already on the road. The only time the previous LS430 faced a S500 was in 2001 in a MT comparo and the S500 won then too. Both the Benz and the Lexus are brand new and I don't remember that being the case in any other comparo before. Things change, but I still want to see what MT and R&T say about this. Then there is Automobile magazine. You gotta love how now all of a sudden C&D is so biased, yet in the past they put the LS over everything and they were right on the money then.

    The curious thing is that the 08' S450 is pegged at 5.9 secs 0-60 mph, right around what the LS460L does in real world testing and at a loaded price of 93K a S450 would likely be cheaper than a loaded LS460L. Change is something else.

    M
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