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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,926
    I would just get her both. She can drive one during the week and the other on weekends. Then she will be looking good.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • :confuse: WHich one will be better for my wife the MB S or BMW 7 Series. I want her to look good as well.
  • :DI really can't afford both. I want to get her something that could come close to the performance as my CLS55 AMG but not to close. But something when someone looks at it they be like that is nice as my MB. :D
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Could be that they found the S550 to have even better fit and finish than the already good LS460L? Yep. The LS460L scored better in those categories you mentioned, but you left out that the LS460L's brakes were awful, trunk space was lacking, and it was found to have a less comfortable rear seat. The S550 had better handling and superior NVH control when it came to the engine. You aren't looking at the whole review only the categories in which the Lexus did well at.

    Lexus should be more careful about which features they decide to pick up from Mercedes. Mercedes has backed away from the electrohydraulic brakes just as Lexus starts adopt them in more of their cars - to bad reviews just like Mercedes got. Difference is though MB's version did stop the car in shorter distances in some tests with complaints about feel. Lexus' complaints seem to be about both feel and function.

    M
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    They have changed. Both have more powerful powerplants and additional features not seen initially.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,926
    Audi actually won this comparo except that it was soundly beaten by the S in the...drum roll please... "Gotta have it" category. Can you believe that? If the S had still been behind they would have trotted out the "largest wheel well" category. Totally BOGUS.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,926
    I would not be surprised to find out the LS was a pre production model. I did not know the LWB was available yet. They said the LS was quieter even with a defective door sill. And that deal with the brakes has got to be an aberation.

    Seems odd that the LWB would be tested first.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,926
    OK, I read the report a little more closely and the LS that was tested was indeed a PREPRODUCTION CAR. This throws the whole test into a cocked hat!! Talk about unfair. I simply can't believe C&D would do a test like this and try to sneak it by with one tiny little mention that it was preproduction!!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Let's understand what's up for debate here, okay?

    Opinions about the vehicles are more than welcome. Opinions about posted relevant reviews are also very welcome as long as they are not used to cast aspersions on other members.

    Opinions of other members' opinions of cars or reviews or whatever reeeally are not on topic here and need to be left at the door. We are here to talk about cars, so lets do just that. We're not here to talk about each other at all.

    So let's go from there.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Automag reviews are done months in advance so it isn't unusual that they test pre-production models. In fact it is done all the time.

    Pre-production might have helped the brakes and acceleration, but pre-production or not it still wouldn't have helped rear seat comfort or trunk space.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Over the last several years, admittedly, there probably were folks who were not willing to gamble on the mediocre Mercedes Benz quality control, who bought the reliable Lexus LS instead.

    As far as a potential MB buyer choosing the LS for "compelling value", I don't see it. The prestige factor of the MB S-Class is simply too powerful.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    If the S-Class had been a press car, then it would've been called fair.

    As it stands, there is no winning when it comes to European cars. When one wins a comparo hands-down, then it's time to decide what it did not do so well.

    The wheel arches are too big. I can't figure out how to turn the a/c on. This car is too good. No winning whatsoever.

    It has to be said, all of these cars have some good attributes. They all have they're weakness and strong points. But because one is quieter with a slightly better interior fit/finish doesn't equate to being best in class.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,926
    I agree, all these cars are great cars. I can't wait for a real comparison to be done. I really don't care which one wins, I just want to see a fair comparo with a real LS production vehicle. The S could still come out on top, but until it does, in a real test, it hasn't won.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Auto mags are written for enthusiasts and are performance-oriented, cars like the LS will never stand a chance in their comparos. A simple fact of life.
    Auto mags are not interested in limos like the LS.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    There were many inconsistancies in this report. They called the fit and finish on the LS "flawless", yet it scored lower than the S. The LS got much better mileage than the S but they scored the same. The S has the worst mpg of the 5 tested yet tied for first in the ratings.

    Yes, some numbers are curious. With regard to mileage, they merely showed EPA figures as claimed by the manufacturer and 13 mpg across the board which I read as their test results for 475 miles with each car. However, there is no way all five cars yielded the same mileage unless it is an amazing coincidence. In any event, mileage did not factor into the test scores.

    BTW, if you want to see some curious numbers, look at the curb weights. They are rounded off too nicely, in striking contrast to what the manufacturers claim.

    I take Car & Driver with a grain of salt anyway. Of course, if the LS won, many would be singing a different tune.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,926
    I read the mpg figures the same way you did. No way they could all come out at 13 mpg over 475 miles. Very curious. I also agree that all the mags are suspect and have their own agendas.

    I own an RL, an LX 470 and a 350Z so I don't have a dog in this fight. I just have a lot of questions about this comparison. I have never seen a full fledged comparo like this one where one of the cars was a preproduction vehicle and very little was said about it. Of course, this is sort of a preproduction report anyway.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Of course, if the LS won, many would be singing a different tune.

    Exactly.

    Every other time the same magazine has put the LS430 and previous LS400 on top no one had a problem with it. If you notice when a comparo comes around like this at C&D the LS is almost always the model that has just been introduced. It has been this way since 1990 and this is not the first time they've used a pre-production sample to do a comparison with.

    To be fair some of the things like braking distance and acceleration could have been pre-production glitches, but this is Lexus we're talking about, quality is supposed to be oh so great all the time. Secondly the other issues that the LS460L had wouldn't have been cured by getting a specimen from a local dealers lot either.

    It just can't be accepted because the LS lost plain and simple.

    The A8L wasn't even a 2007 model, like in that 2003 comparo in which a 2003 S430 was used vs a bunch of 2004 cars. No excuses were accepted then about the S430 having a 5-speed transmission when the editors complained about it while the 04 S430 had a 7-speed that would have taken care of at least that problem.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Auto mags are written for enthusiasts and are performance-oriented, cars like the LS will never stand a chance in their comparos. A simple fact of life. Auto mags are not interested in limos like the LS.

    That isn't always the case though, not with C&D and the Lexus LS. Car and Driver has a history of putting the LS on top more often in this class than any other car in this class. This time however, others rode just as smoothly while handling better and the Lexus didn't have its usual price advantage. For 93K a Lexus loses some of its appeal and when other cars that deliever the expected ride comfort with better handling, and other practical measures and the difference is only 10 (not the usual 15-25K) it is easy to see why Lexus couldn't pull it off in a C&D comparo. All of Lexus' traditional strengths were met head on and its traditional weaknesses (handling, dynamics) were still there. Others comparos will vary I'm sure.

    Lexus has a much better chance with a Sport or whatever they're calling it, version of the LS460L in a MT or R&T comparo.

    M
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Wow! I took most of the day off to look at some cars, and I come back to THIS! You guys really had the gloves on, and to think I missed out on all that.

    Oh well, I was too darned busy purchasing a new Porsche Carrera S Cabriolet today. Yes, I did it. But, I purchased the six speed, and not the Tip. It was all quite smooth enough in spite of my messed up neck. Smooth as silk, especially compared to that Lotus. So, I guess, things really did work out by being patient and test driving.

    I came oh so close this morning to the SL550, such a beautiful roadster, but in the end I couldn't help from falling in love with that wonderful Porsche driving experience. I'll miss that cool kick in the pants from the Lotus, but I'm so happy tonight, I'll probably sleep in the car! (not really, but I'll admit I sat in my first Carrera that entire first night! LOL)

    Thanks to all for your support during the entire process. You were all very cool, and I appreciate it.

    :) :D

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,926
    Congrats and enjoy!!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • guestguest Posts: 774
    There are many differnt ways to respond to "The Test".

    Lexus has won many times before, and NO ONE in "team Europe would step up and give the LS430 it's due, much less say it was a better luxury car than a S430, so I will not respond in kind on that front.

    Post #21403 covered some, but not all of the flaws in the test.

    The magazine all but said the LS was the best luxury car in the test, but they didn't enjoy driving it.

    That said, it's hard to justify putting the best luxury car last in a test of luxury cars. :confuse:

    I see no evidence that the Touring Pkg, was used on the LS, thereby creating an apples-to-apples comparison vs. the S550, which they special requested had handling-biased options included.

    Another problem I have is, let's say the S550 has the best luxury vs. performance mix of the group. And let's say the 7 was the best performance car, and the LS the best luxury car.

    Does that mean the A8 and Jag are better cars than the LS? Even though they never excelled, and the A8 was downright slow?

    How could the LS430 win all those tests, when it was NEVER performance-biased, and was ALWAYS the best luxury car? When did the criteria change for this class?

    Obviously, the LS460L is better than the LS430, so how does it go from 1st to last, even losing to cars the LS430 beat easily before?

    How do you load up a luxury car with $20k in luxury options, skip the performance option, then complain that car acts too much like a luxury car?

    Is C&D judging the cars based on what buyers in this class expect, or what they want (but aren't buying)?

    Does this test damn the LS460L as an inferior redesign?

    Did Lexus accomplish it's mission with this car? Are they building a car to a market, or will they totally miss the target, as C&D seems to assert?

    If the car had a comprehensive standard luxury features list, what's with the $20k in options? It easily won in luxury features battle, but that imbalance cost it the war.

    I am disturbed by the braking distances, and there really is no excuse for that!

    My main issue is if C&D wanted a performance vs. luxyr balance, get the car that will do the job. The LS had no Touring Pkg., had more luxury features than the more expensive S550, and was penalized for essentially being too luxurious. You don't have buy options that diminish truck space, then say "Small trunk". Really?

    Did I expect the LS to win? Maybe. It's obvious a $100k+ LS460L (with Touring) would've been as luxurious as the S550, whch is a victory in itself. I didn't expect the LS to win many performance test, except maybe be close to the Jag at the top of braking tests.

    And the car was not Lexus production-grade, which, so I've heard, may be above all others.

    C&D is still my favorite magazine, but I'm not exactly thrilled with there "new" test rating system.

    Dec 06 issue: There is no way the Rabbit beats the Mazda 3 in a comparison test. Not acceptable. The Mazda was the best car, faster (almost 1 sec), better handling, better braking, better looking, even more efficient (3 MPG!)! And it's not a hatchback.

    In closing, all I can say is people are questioning Toyota quality, and I'm questioning C&D comparos! What is the world coming to? :sick:

    Congrats to Mercedes. I'm sure the S550 is a great car, and they'll have some monster sales, but I am not impressed. And the LS train will not slow down one iota.

    If you've ever seen those Coors Light commercials, that "Love Train" is Toyota and/or Lexus.

    Plus, the Lexus is good-looking! ;) Call me superficial, but if both girls can cook, send me the one who knows how to dress! Woo-woo! Woo. :shades:

    DrFill
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Boy that was a lot Doc. Sorta of a back-handed congrats to the S550 for beating the LS460L I guess.

    Now you question C&D's comparos saying that they're "flawed", but to make it seem fair you temper it with a question about Lexus' quality. Smart, but I can see right through that Doc.

    Lots of woulda, shoulda, coulda in there about 100K LS models, touring packages and what not.

    One thing isn't clear though, they said that the S550 had optional air springs, which can't be true because Airmatic with ADS is standard. Question is did this car have Active Body Control, it might have.

    In closing, Lexus sales and what not will continue as you painstakingly state, but now a C&D comparo won't and can't be part of the party line.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Congrats on the Porsche, pics when you get a chance.

    M
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Plus, the Lexus is good-looking! Call me superficial, but if both girls can cook, send me the one who knows how to dress! Woo-woo! Woo.

    Woo-woo! Woo????? for a Lexus?????

    WHOA!

    As you know, I don't think the LS looks good at all, but since you think it does, how do you explain the Lexus camp's suggestion that only knuckle-headed Eurocar fans would ever buy a car because of its good looks instead of so much smarter reasons such as reliability. We've heard that jab many times before.

    But now that you think the LS is a looker, it's suddenly OK to buy a car based on good looks?

    And another thing... It wouldn't matter WHAT Car & Driver, or anyone else for that matter ever says about your perfect LS... you will ultimately defend that car no matter what.

    Every good review is the truth and every bad one is distorted somehow. Amazing.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Congrats on the Porsche, pics when you get a chance.

    Thanks!!

    I obviously know how to insert web-based pics, as I've often done that, but how would I place personal pics into a post?

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    All true, all true. I knew it would happen. Live by the comparo, die by the comparo. All those years the S430 lost comparo after comparo it was the norm around here for it to be dismissed, but the lukewarm first drives and now one comparo of the new LS460L are not be believed. Even though they're being given by the same folks who raved about the previous LS430. There is no old S-Class to compare to this time around, things change.

    For pics I use imageshack. You can upload pics and resize them and they give you the code to post in forums like this. All free of course.

    M
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Tagman,

    congratulations on your new Porsche Carrera S Cabriolet.
    Look forward to hearing more about your car in this forum.

    Dewey
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Actually, you've got your own free space right here: http://www.carspace.com/tagman.

    Congrats - can't wait to see some pics!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "I am disturbed by the braking distances."

    When I shop for a car, the most crucial measurement I take away from a car review is the braking distance.
    That number alone in the comparo would have crossed the LS off my list.

    Given the price range that Lexus is charging for this vehicle, excellent brakes should be a given. There is no excuse for this from a major luxury manufacturer.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    You overlook the start of my post, which I thought was the most significant part.

    When the shoe was on the other foot, for YEARS, the LS has not gotten anything close to 1st place status here. Wasn't even really considered a HELM car without bloodshed?

    So if you are looking for some contrition from me, or any of by bretheren, you can forget that!

    Strangely, nothing was changed by this comparison.

    The LS has been, and is still, the superior luxury car, according to C&D, and many buyers.

    What has changed is the ranking system by C&D.

    And I see no excuse for ranking the A8 and 750i ahead of the LS.

    The 7 is a nightmare to look at/use, and isn't half the luxury car the LS is, but it is more fun to drive/more of a performer.

    One more ting, Merc....

    I never stated I was some authority on Mercedes history. Just a passenger once in a $60k E-Class.

    The seats were embarassingly hard. Durability is no excuse for that, as you'll know, Lexus has no problem with the durability of their leather seats. Duarable and rich. Could Mercedes pull that off? I guess not. :confuse:

    Steel chairs are quite durable, but I'd never spend $60k to sit on one... :sick:

    DrFill
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