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High End Luxury Cars

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  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    A shiny new car with a bow on top of it during the month of December takes absolutely ZERO brain power to come up with. Lexus is supposed to get some type of respect or special mention for this?

    Yeah, from you Merc, when your company can't get up to "zero brain power" to come up with it. Didn't have an idea in 2000 and, obviously, still don't. :sick:

    Unless you think "Santa tracks" are pure genius.

    You danced around my other post, how God-awful and "lame" the current Mercedes ad campaign is. Or am I missing some "brain power", and this is a ad we should see every year?

    Please enlighten me, and explain away this current cutting-room material they call a commercial.

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Doc, I would have to agree with Merc here and with a little thought you would too. Lexus sells better than Mercedes in spite of their lame commercials. Must be pretty good cars, eh?

    You now see my point.

    Merc can't have it all the way around. The cars are lame, the ads are lame, hybrid is lame, interiors are cheap, no innovation.

    Only one problem. Lexus can't build enough of them! Mercedes has been scrambling after Lexus, inside and out, since 1989?

    Someday, Merc will have a legitimate explaination for that.

    DrFill
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Seems that most of the BMW 3 series that I see on the road are driven by....young women. About the only auto you see driven more by women seems to be small, expensive, convertibles or big SUVs. They love those things.

    I love those things myself. Except I can live without big SUVs or pick ups. Oh well at least the burly and hairy Grizzly Adam-types pick smooth and soft Lexuses instead. :shades:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Oh the blunders of youth. Oh well at least you ended up blundering with a Ferarri. Not many are as priviledged to experience that kind of blunder. I myself yearn to make those kind of blunders. ;)
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,870
    Sounds like a reliability mea culpa.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,596
    Hello, long time listener, occassional poster. No offense, but the discussion here regarding commercials is possibly even more lame than any of the commercials themselves...

    I actually like the MB Santa's Sleigh commercial. And regarding the Lexus "Bow" commercials, these are far from original. Lexus may have started 'em in 2000, but I'm fairly sure VW was doing the same thing in the 60s or 70s. And I will believe that they are effective as they reinforce the fantasy of Santa leaving a new car under the tree...

    In fact, after seeing the VW ads oh so long ago, come Christmas morn the first place I would go is to the front window to see if Santa had fulfilled my dream. Still do, still waiting. Although, in '02 Santa did deliver a shiny white RX300 to my wife. Thanks, Santa. Wasn't I good, too??? Santa's shiny red SL would certainly make up for a lifetime of dissapointing views from that front window... ;)

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Here is another review of the Lexus LS460. This reviewer loved the 1990 LS400 so much that he almost bought one. Unfortunately his opinion about the LS460 is a bit different :lemon:

    And I would like to pre-empt anyone from accusing me of writing this review. Honest it wasn't me that wrote this. In fact it was a very fine fellow by the name of Jay Shoemaker that wrote this very engaging and insightful review below.

    Lexus LS460 Review

    Driving a Mercedes E63 AMG just prior to testing the Lexus LS 460 was a big mistake. The German and Japanese machines define the opposite poles of the luxury sedan spectrum. The E63 is for driving enthusiasts. The LS 460 is for people who hate cars.

    At first glance, the LS 460 has finally stopped cribbing its design cues from Mercedes– and started cribbing from the BMW 7 Series. In the flesh, it’s clear that Lexus has turned inwards for inspiration. As I patrolled my dealer’s lot to scan color variations, I couldn’t distinguish an ES from an LS. In fact, the Japanese brand’s “L-finesse” design philosophy Lacks-finesse across the entire model range. There are no exterior character lines worth mentioning. I like the way the LS’ exhaust pipes integrate into the rear valence. And, um that’s it.

    This deeply conservative (not to say bland) approach carries over into the interior, which seems carefully designed to avoid offense. While you can’t fault the LS 460's ergonomics or the luster of its wood accents, the $61k-and-up car's cabin comes off just a little bit, well, cheap. The buttons are made from plastic that Audi wouldn't use for the A8's trunk release. And Lexus can buff that leather as much as it wants; it still feels like it came out of a Camry. Of course, the LS 460 boats— I mean boasts every luxury car toy on earth, including intuitive parking assist (Danger Will Robinson!) and power everything you can imagine (and much you can’t or wouldn’t).

    Firing-up the LS’ 4.6-liter V8 is about as aurally exciting as switching on a pool heater– which is fair enough. The driving experience is a bit like swimming in warm water. Helming the LS, I thought I'd become an automotive quadriplegic; my mind was operating the vehicle rather than my extremities. I had no sensation whatsoever from the steering wheel, throttle or brakes. Every control involved with the vehicle’s operation lay just within the range of human perception.

    The LS 460’s electronic brakes were designed for women wearing high heels; the slightest touch of a stiletto brings the car to a complete stop. Steering feel isn’t. There's only one way to know the slushbox is changing gears: watch the tacho needle bouncing gently up and down. Unless you depress the throttle at 45mph. Then there's an unacceptable hesitation as the transmission rows through a few gear changes before finding the meaty part of the engine’s torque range. Remind me again why Lexus needs an eight speed transmission? Oh yes; Mercedes has a seven speed.

    The LS 460’s handling reminded me of a 10-month old Golden Retriever puppy: affectionate but clumsy. Turn-in is irrelevant. You can’t feel the car settling into a corner and you only realize that you are exceeding the vehicle’s limits when the door’s angle of attack relative to the road exceeds 15 degrees, and the traction control wrests control (you mean I was driving?) away from the driver.

    Lexus claims the LS 460 wafts from zero to 60 in 5.4 seconds. Given 380 horsepower and 367 lb. ft. of torque in a 4244 pound luxobarge, that sounds about right. But it felt a lot slower. It could be the complete lack of sensual feedback or the effects of that pesky E63 again. Anyway, the LS 460 desperately needs a sport package. Alas, none is available. I suspect Lexus knows its target audience will be more impressed with (though not concerned about) the sedan's extraordinary 21 city and 27 highway miles per gallon.

    I last drove an LS in 1990. Compared to the competition over at Mercedes and BMW, the LS was a breath of fresh air: bargain-priced and elegantly engineered. I almost bought one. OK, I’m trying to impress you with my open-mindedness. And it's true: I can see the virtue of a machine that functions without any apparent effort from man or machine. But I struggled not to giggle at the LS 460’s “Luxury Car for Dummies” perfection. If Lexus added an in-dash popcorn maker, I’d find more reason to buy this mobile entertainment lounge. But nowhere near enough. :lemon:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Nobody in these past decades makes more entertaining auto advertisements like VW. And nobody today makes more entertaining ads like VW. NONE!If you saw an Audi ad and a VW ad you would never think that their cars are from the same company.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Never heard of the guy, but the review seems about right, after reading the other reviews. He mentions the overly grabby brakes and the numb steering. I've seen those things before. He indicates the car feels slower than its supposed 5.4 seconds 0-60 mph time, which corroborates C&D's findings.

    The only thing I disagree with is his rather ridiculous statement that the LS460 is for people who hate cars.
    I would change that to the LS460 is for people who know nothing about cars and couldn't care less.

    My question is how does Lexus justify charging so much for a vehicle which offers so little?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    This review seems to target the same lengthy list of the LS460's weaknesses as most of the other reviews, however the writing style seemed a bit too harsh, IMO. In any event, I agree with the general content.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    1)The LS 460 is for people who hate cars.

    OK Howard I do agree his statement above is a bit extreme. But other than that one very extreme sentence the rest of his review appears to be fairly balanced, objective and unbiased ;)

    2)This review seems to target the same lengthy list of the LS460's weaknesses as most of the other reviews, however the writing style seemed a bit too harsh and sarcastic, IMO.

    Tagman,

    I am almost hundred percent convinced that this reviewer must of had a heated dispute about that MEGA BOW Lexus Ad with one of our forum members just before test driving the LS.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes. The criticisms are not only well-taken but also well-documented.

    I would like to see a new December to Remember commercial where when confronted with a new LS460 topped by a red ribbon, the person is shown pouting and says, "Well, I really was kind of expecting a Longines." ;)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I noticed that you dropped that little "bomb" on the LS forum... and you and your article weren't all that well received.

    I've noticed something unusual over there lately. There are lots of posts trying to determine who now writes the proper reviews of the LS... and interestingly, they are discrediting all those magazines and reviewers that criticize the LS, and giving high marks to those reviewers and magazines that like the LS.

    Is "selective criticism" a new terminology for the 21st century?

    Oh well, I guess some hear what some want to hear...but I still believe there is always more than one side to a story.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Well, just as Dewey shows us the more typical review, here comes one of those that reads like it was written at Lexus headquarters.

    link title

    I gave this little present to the LS forum. It ought to pump them up for a while. ;)

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    My question is how does Lexus justify charging so much for a vehicle which offers so little?

    I guess we know the true author of that insipid piece.

    As we segui from MT reviews (highly positive, and poignant), to obscure footnotes (both good and bad), let us review.

    I'm making a list, and checking it twice:

    The New LS is:

    A poor value
    Ugly
    Lame
    Slow
    Deceitful
    Poor handling
    Poor steering
    Has cheap buttons
    Has small foot space
    Has dumb owners
    Has ignorant owners
    Is hateable
    Has many weaknesses

    Anyone else wanna call Babe Ruth fat? Babe Zaharias crude? Ali a loudmouth?

    You guys sound like a bunch of Audi engineers. All steak, no sizzle. Our car is better that theirs! Why can't we be Lexus, and they sit here and be scrubs! :mad:

    Haters never win. At the end of the day, the customer is always right.

    You guys get your quality up, make about 5 years worth of quality ads. Get people to come back for their second car. Win a few hundred awards. Sell customers, not journalists. Then maybe you can be a Lexus! :surprise:

    Maybe. :blush:

    I guess it would be a bad time to bring up another EASY Lexus win in the HELM division, customer retention.

    If Lexus is wrong, I don't wanna be right! :)

    Lexus owners sleep the sleep of the righteous. ;)

    So do Lexus-backers! Good night.

    And I want some real jealousy tomorrow, but make it sizzle! I want to feel the envy, the total exasperation at Lexus' ascention.

    Pretend it's 1936 in Munich, and you see Jesse Owens winning race after race, or something.

    I believe in you guys, so don't let me down. ;)

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    You're coming in loud and clear, Doc. Maybe you could turn down the volume just a little?

    There are bound to be different opinions. But the criticisms are far from just being thrown at the LS.

    You should hear the crazy stuff posted about BMW's recently. Heck, if I were to believe that hyperbole stuff, I'd expect every single part of a BMW to completely fall apart (except for the engine, if it's a diesel!) in only 3 years. The S-Class has been called a lemon, and the Audi has been called a loser, and the junk goes on and on.

    Perhaps I should research some of YOUR wonderful remarks over the last year?

    Still think you deserve a more righteous sleep, eh? I don't think so.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    This Maybach 62's driver's door got stuck... and this is how the owner attempted to solve the problem.

    link title

    :)

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Criticisms are justified by the continuing appearances in reviews of the same faults: numb steering, grabby brakes, little driver involvement and feedback. "A car I can't love."
    A car that appears "slow" given its 5.4 seconds 0-60 mph time.

    Do you think most of the reviewers have conspired to trash the LS460?
    As illogical as saying BMWs fall apart in 3 years.
  • Maybe you're right about the Volvo XC90 pricing.
    UK pricing is much higher because of the tax imposed by the govt.

    Currenty standard XC90 in US is starting below $40K, So it doesn't make sense to price the Executive edition more than twice the standard edition. But look at the Porsche Cayenne, the standard edition also starts around $40K, but the Cayenne Turbo S is about $100K. Boy that's a bit on the extreme just for a different engine plus a few bells & whistles but same body style. My guess is the XC90 Executive will starts between $60K-$70K
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The problem here Doc is the same as always. I at no point stated that Mercedes' advertising was the stuff that other companies aspire to or that it has shaped the industry, that was your claim about Lexus. I stated that Lexus showing someone running out to the street to unwrap a Lexus wasn't up to the genius that you claimed it was. Period. Like I said before Jaguar does something similar and it is much more tastefully done and the people don't look and act like idiots in their commercials either.

    You danced around my other post, how God-awful and "lame" the current Mercedes ad campaign is. Or am I missing some "brain power", and this is a ad we should see every year?

    Yeah sure, and you've continually danced around taking a look into that thread I've mentioned 3-4 times already to see if Lexus is mentioned as having some of the worst Dec commercials going. I'm far from the only one that thinks Lexus' Dec ads are pathetic.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Merc can't have it all the way around. The cars are lame, the ads are lame, hybrid is lame, interiors are cheap, no innovation.

    Again, you mixed me up with someone else. Where did I say that a Lexus had a cheap interior? Where? Apparently you've never read anything I've ever posted about the TOL or an auto show concerning Lexus. Have stated that their interior designs are no different from a top line Toyota's design, not that they were cheaply made material wise. Big difference.

    Where did I say that hybrids are lame Doc? When and where? The only thing I've ever said about Lexus hybrids is that they aren't all that and that the GS450h in particular hasn't set the world/segment on fire like some used to say it would.

    Please stop putting words in my posts. Oh hell yeah I've said that Lexus doesn't innovate squat and that they don't drive or look like anything (IS350 excluded), but at no point did I say that they had cheap interiors or that hybrids are lame. Ccould you at least get the charges correct beforehand?

    Only one problem. Lexus can't build enough of them! Mercedes has been scrambling after Lexus, inside and out, since 1989?

    Funny, they surely have been able to build enough GS and SC models. They surely can build enough GX and LX models too unless declining sales mean increased demand in your world. Keep hyping it up like every Lexus is in hot demand and sold out, it is specious rhetoric at its best.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    And regarding the Lexus "Bow" commercials, these are far from original. Lexus may have started 'em in 2000, but I'm fairly sure VW was doing the same thing in the 60s or 70s.

    Intersting, but Lexus is supposed to get some type of medal for this. Jaguar does the same thing, but in a much more tasteful way.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well the normal charge is that any review that doesn't praise the LS isn't credible.

    That said, this review does go a little overboard. For one why is a car like the LS being compared to a E63 AMG?

    I agree with the overall opinion of the automotive press that the LS460 isn't anywhere near the event relative to the current competition that the 1990 model was, but this review is a little too precious.

    M
  • And I would like to pre-empt anyone from accusing me of writing this review. Honest it wasn't me that wrote this.

    LOL, you are right. This article couldn't have been written by you, only you. It looks like a masterpiece by Tag, HP, YOU and some other Lex haters.

    Btw, I still don't get the complaints about the LS not being a bargain any longer :confuse: Given that the price range has expanded quite a bit, but the regular LS can still be had in the mid USD 60's. For me, this car is quieter than the S class, or BMW 7; just as quick when needed; and this what this class of cars is about.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I would enthusiastically take credit for it, since I am an advocate for truth in journalism, but alas, I didn't.

    Why don't the folks who take issue with certain points in the review by Mr. Shoemaker post some arguments against the specific points he makes?

    Instead we get, "It looks like a masterpiece written by Tag, HP, YOU (Dewey) and some other Lex haters."

    Can't you refute anything he wrote?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I noticed that you dropped that little "bomb" on the LS forum... and you and your article weren't all that well received.

    Everytime I poke my head into a Lexus forum just to have a very friendly and cordial chat it always ends up feeling like I poked my head into a gas oven :sick:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Merc,

    this is getting a bit too serious now. But unfortunately you better prepare yourself for that brochure-diet you vowed to go on when a new MB S convertible is introduced.

    I know you go on an annual Detroit pilgrimage during January and you will be able to see it with your own eyes next month according to Automotive News Report.

    Which brings me to the important second matter. Our BMW 5 vs MB E sales bet for 2006. Oh what a shame this one bet was a gentlemens' bet. Next time we make a bet whoever loses will have to eat a hardcopy of War and Peace. :P
  • I have not get a chance to test drive the new LS, so I can't say any thing about it one way or the other. I think as intelligent people, we know trash when we see/smell it. Plus, all these points have been beaten to death here, so I would take DrFill's approach, which is let the sales numbers speak for themselves. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the LS460 will smashed all HELC sales records.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Overall what Shoemaker had to say was already said by other reviewers. Except he added some Cajun spice to his words. The one big weakness with this review was pointed out by Merc(comparing a MB E63 to a LS)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Btw, I still don't get the complaints about the LS not being a bargain any longer

    GS did you say the words bargain? From an American I understand what those words mean. But from a Canadain who is faced with a 87K CDN$ LS460 SWB MSRP I have not a clue how you can those words without a tinge of sarcasm :confuse:
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