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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Posts: 121
    The 500E was an incredible car, wasn't it engineered by Porsche? That car was the ultimate sleeper.

    It wasn't so much that BMW chose their isolation from lexus in that Lexus chose MB as their benchmark.

    I might have to agree with you on the margins of the M5 compared to a loaded 540i, that 5 liter is full of expensive technology but I'm sure that engine doesn't cost BMW 10K more to produce.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yes it was an incredible car! Yep it was built/tested/tweaked by Porsche. Automobile called it the best car in the world "by which we will judge all automobiles". If I didn't need a "new" car this would be the used Benz of choice, a 1994 model (E500) that is.

    True about Lexus and their benchmark target, that's another way of putting it. But you have to admit that BMW's performance angle has spared them direct comparisions with Lexus until the GS400 came along.

    Not really sure about the M5 compared to the other 5-series cars. I suspect that type of info isn't available on the web anywhere.

    M
  • bernard1bernard1 Posts: 58
    Maybe I'm missing the point but from what I remember the Japanesse makes a little low sales volume sports car by Acura, Yes? So, they also make cars that are performace based while full well knowing the volume of sales for that car will be low. In 1970 the first Z car hit the US shores, and that was also a fun performance oriented car and it came at a time when no one would have thought Japan would have produced a sports car. They took the risk. Europeans make certain cars for perfomance sake, what II'm saying is hat today it's all about profit. Since I have perfomance based cars I'm glad they do. I use Porsche as my gauge as they make more $$ per auto then any other manufacturer and they are not always ahead of their competition.

    I think you may have missed my point about the GT. Sure orders= cars, but rarely has a car company stated that they would not build a car unless they had confirmed orders to insure a profit. The Cayenne, Porsche's new love was designed, engineered and ready to be built before the first order was taken. Most manufactures do the same. I'm just pointing out that while the Europeans believe in perfomance based auto's, profit are now the prime motavator, having the fastest car, etc. etc, is icing on the cake.

    Actually a fully loaded 540i 6 sp is 12K and change less than a fully loaded M5 and when you actually purchase it, the difference is even more as you can get reasonable discounts on the 540i. Additionally there is not 12K difference in price on the engine. Something else to consider, very few people buy a fully loaded 540 simply because they don't want some of the extras. Those extras bring profit, the M5 comes with most everything standard, so there is a little extra built in.

    You are correct about BMW not having to deal head to head with Lexus until the GS400 came along . Can't speak of the pricing of the 525 vs 190 as I've never owned or even price one of those. Lexus may have had some influence on the V8's at BMW, I don't know, but I know that the 7 series came out as their MB fighter but was deemed under powered.
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Posts: 121
    I think you guys are both right. Sure, every manufacturer is out to make profits, but BMW, Porsche, Audi, Acura, etc. also cater to the consumer by bringing out low volume performance cars. They could aways sell something else to make more profit like bringing the Audi A3 over instead of the RS6(which they are bringing over only 850 units). On the flipside, if manufacturers didn't care about profits then they would be giving cars away. Its not all about profits, its also about giving the consumer what they want.
  • bernard1bernard1 Posts: 58
    Your're right. I sure wish Porsche would listen and give a little more hp for the $$.

    For now, I will attempt to patiently wait for Audi's new S8 and hopefully will not be disappointed when it's released.

    What do you guys think of BMW's leap in technology and how Lexus, Audi, MB will follow up?
  • Outside of the regular Boxster, every single Porsche I'm aware of does 0-60 in 5.5 seconds or less (Boxster S being the slowest at around 5.5).

    In my world, that's plenty fast. If you want speed but don't want to drop $70-80k on a car, buy a Corvette. That's why they make them. For people who want Porsche performance without paying for it.
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Posts: 121
    Don't get me wrong, I like the 745i, but I think that time will be a b!tch for it. The gadgets will date this car and I believe hurt its reliablity. I can almost guarantee that there are going to be expensive electrical problems to deal with in the future. Also, resale value will really suffer because of the added complexity.

    S8 is pretty sweet!
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I'd have to disagree about the Acura NSX, the car is rare because it's 10+ years old and just doesn't sell. Acura has stated many times that they would love to import more of these. The NSX sold very well between 1991-1993, but after that it's been downhill. I'ts not a rare car by choice.

    Well I guess we'll never know about the profit margins on the 5-Series BMW models, but It really doesn't matter what the buyer gets the car for, the only money BMW sees is the money the dealer pays to get the car. I still think the M5's engine eats up more profit on the M5 than the 525i's does. But you/me/we don't have any proof anyway, but it would interesting to find out.

    On the Porsche Carrera GT. Cars are shown to the public to gauge reaction all the time and companys often base their production plans on who many orders or inquirys they get on a car, so I don't know what you mean there. Ford just did the same thing with the GT40.

    I'm impressed with BMW and Mercedes' push for technology. The only thing really "wrong" with the new 7-Series is the styling. BMW really is rethinking engine and suspension design, I like that. Mercedes has been all about brakes and suspensions lately, I waiting to see their next generation of direct injection, 4-valve gas engines, due in 2004, I think. I think idrive may be a little ahead of it's time, hopefully they won't make it standard on the next 5-Series. Mercedes is turning over development of the next Comand system to Nokia. Should be interesting, though I've never had a Nokia phone (Sanyo) to know how they think. BMW hit MB with pricing like Lexus did, just one year though....the 525i was priced at $34,900, that same as the 190E 2.6.

    M
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Posts: 121
    Don't get me wrong, I like the 745i, but I think that time will be a b!tch for it. The gadgets will date this car and I believe hurt its reliablity. I can almost guarantee that there are going to be expensive electrical problems to deal with in the future. Also, resale value will really suffer because of the added complexity.

    S8 is pretty sweet!
  • bernard1bernard1 Posts: 58
    You may be right about the gadgets. BMW's gadgets have not been the most reliable. Even their auto tilt steering wheels have had numerous problems.

    Merc1 - I'm not too impressed with the 7's styling either but as most thing do, I believe it grows on us. The new 5's will have the basic same style as the 7, don't know about the Idrive but I think BMW is pushing for a standard. Remember with the E-class fist came out with oval headlights? For MB that was a major departure and created a stir. After awhile most people loved it and the E is the most successful selling car in it's class ever. Admittedly I'm still waiting for the latest S class to grow on me to replace my previous generation, but it hasn't yet. Which is why I've move to BMW and now thinking of giving Audi a shot.
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Posts: 121
    It funny, but when the 745 wears the standard 18inch (huge in its own right) wheels the car looks bloated and weird proportioned. But when the car has the optional 19inch wheels, the car looks beautifully aggressive. But then again there are not many cars that wouldn't look good in 19inch wheels.

    On that note, there is a silver Audi TT 225quattro (I can tell by the dual tailpipes) with 19 or 20 inch BBS wheels driving around campus, and it was probably the most beautiful car I have ever seen
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Speaking of which, I saw one today in silver with the 19" wheels, it's a stunning car, caused a few people at the stoplight to do a double take. I think the car will be fine. Chris Bangle may have been on to something here. Bobby, yes the cars many electrical systems would make me think twice about buying a used one down the road, but then again it may not be any worse than the current 7-Series, it too had electrical problems.

    M
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Posts: 363
    I think the cars more centralized computer system will actually improve electrical reliability.
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Posts: 121
    Isn't the new 7 the first car with 42V(I'm guessing) electrical system? I would think that changing to a new standard(eventually all cars will convert) will eventually take its toll on the reliability of the components, since all systems needed to be redesigned to fit the new standard.

    Is this truth or did the elf tell me this in a dream last night?
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Posts: 363
    the new S500 is the car that is debuting 48V technology...If I remember correctly.
  • nealm1nealm1 Posts: 154
    Had my first real chance to look at the 7 in person last weekend (2 actually, a silver and a black). I still haven't driven, or even been inside, the car, so true evaluation wil have to wait.

    My impressions on styling alone? I am wildly ambivalent about this car. The interior is orders of magnitude better looking than the prior 7, which (unlike the elegant exterior) had become hopelessly dated. I really like the apparent (deceptive?) simplicity of the design. The cost paid for that (idrive) may well be too high, but the look is an enormous improvement. Much nicer, IMHO, than the S or the A8, and on par with the Lexus, although in an entirely different, more extroverted style.

    Outside, the side aspect is graceful and satisfying, if a bit derivative of the 6, the passat, and a handful of other german sedans. Nothing new or breathtaking, but certainly no turn off. (I still don't know what they were thinking with the crease running through the doors, though) The front of the car -- even with the busy grill/light clusters -- does not bother me in person the way it did in print. I could certainly learn to live with it (as I have the questionable design of the LS430 headlights).

    The rear, as many here have said, is an entirely different matter. Dark colors, light colors, in person or in a mag, it is just plain ugly. There are so many ideas and design elements competing for attention that it becomes a jumbled mess. I have said before, and this in-person inspection confirmed, that it looks as if the rear quarters and trunk were assembled from spare parts from 6 different model years of the same car; all the pieces fit mechanically but don't look as if they came from the same car. I don't think I would ever get used to that, and would not buy the car for that reason alone (although I suspect that I would not like idrive, and that would probably keep me from buying anyway).

    My guess is that they are aggressively working as we speak on a facelift for the rear, to bow next year or the year after. I also guess that they will try to find a way to make idrive an option before too long. I hope I am right on both (and I hope the car proves reliable), since I would like to be able to consider the car when I am ready to trade out of the LS430.
  • pathdocpathdoc Posts: 126
    I have driven the car and find the major problem not the iDrive or the appearance but rather the shifter. I enjoy using the shifter and the new steering column mounted device on the 745i is terrible. Since steptronic isn't offer in the US (in order to avoid gas guzzler tax) it precludes shifting up and down as indicated. This seems strange in the "ultimate DRIVING machine". Supposedly it will be available in the sport model when it is available. I hope so because otherwise it is a very impressive drive.
  • v12powerv12power Posts: 174
    They have some issues as well. The keyless entry is not working, you need to stand right next to the car to get it to work. The i-drive is crashing, what else would you expect of a "windows" based system. I am EXTREMELY pleased that I did not replace my 750iL with the new model. My '01 S600 is an awesome car, it shames the 750 and new 745i. I can'timagine any other company in the world releasing such an ugly car with so many initial problems. BMW has some incredible loyalty out there. The 750 is my fourth BMW but, if they continue along the path of the 745 it will surely be my last.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,663
    Where are you hearing/reading about all the problems with the new 7. I haven't seen anything in writing anywhere, not that I doubt you for a second given your knowledge base. I do agree completely with you that the car is a bad looker and tried to conquer the universe with ridiculous electronics. Never go it alone in technology and until they abandon I-drive that is where BMW will find itself.
  • v12powerv12power Posts: 174
    It is coming from new owners on the roadfly.com bimmer boards. Be careful over there if you go, it is a bit of a "pit of vipers" at times. People are soooo polarized over this new car they can hardly speak intelligently on either side. I am sure there are owners that like their new 745s, even though they are admitting they have a number of issues. Then there is the group that rightfully expects better from a $70k+ new car. Those problems along with the styling is more than I would tolerate.
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