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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well even I don't feel like discussing it anymore. My posts about this issue are all over this site in any and every topic about luxury cars. I presented my theory a few posts ago.

    nealm1,

    If you think Lexus is an original brand you're a lot more off base than I thought you ever could be. Everything they've done (except the RX300) is to catch up to or mimic somebody else, and not just Mercedes-Benz.

    There is something about the Phantom thats almost spooky, hence the name I guess. It looks like a car that an evil person would drive in a cartoon.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Merc1 wrote about Lexus "Everything they've done (except the RX300) is to catch up to or mimic somebody else".

    On one level, the statement is true, and has to be, because the brand was introduced only in 1990. So when Lexus introduced their first sedan, first coupe, first SUV, naturally they weren't exactly inventing the respective categories.

    On another level, the statement is silly and also false. Does the Land Cruiser/LX 'mimic' other SUVs more than the ML does? (And wasn't the LX on the market before the ML anyway?) What did the old or new SC mimic? What did each generation ES mimic?

    Oh, and was MB the first to put nav systems in its cars? Was it mimicing or catching up when it did? And if MB ever manages to make its nav more user-friendly, will they then be mimicing Lexus?

    Who is going to have the first hybrid-powered luxury suv?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    And it goes on and on........it's true but it isn't true.......

    The LX is a overpriced Land Crusiser and the ES300 is a very ugly luxed out Camry, so you're right nothing there dealing with any German cars.

    Wow a NAV system has really pushed the envelope of car development. Where would cars be without them.....wow! Lexus is truly an innovator. Pluheease.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Merc1 wrote about Lexus "Everything they've done (except the RX300) is to catch up to or mimic somebody else".

    On one level, the statement is true, and has to be, because the brand was introduced only in 1990. So when Lexus introduced their first sedan, first coupe, first SUV, naturally they weren't exactly inventing the respective categories.

    On another level, the statement is silly and also false. Does the Land Cruiser/LX 'mimic' other SUVs more than the ML does? (And wasn't the LX on the market before the ML anyway?) What did the old or new SC mimic? What did each generation ES mimic?

    Oh, and was MB the first to put nav systems in its cars? Was it mimicing or catching up when it did? And if MB ever manages to make its nav more user-friendly, will they then be mimicing Lexus?

    Who is going to have the first hybrid-powered luxury suv?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Saying it again doesn't make it so, and just because Lexus started out in 1990 doesn't mean they had to copy they way they did. Why not all their quality, etc, etc with their OWN look?

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Merc1 wrote "Why not all their quality, etc, etc with their OWN look?"

    Again, since it was ignored earlier, I'll ask: What look is the LX copying? The ES? The GS? The SC? The IS?

    I have never mistaken any model Lexus for another car. Have you, Merc1?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    This is what happens when you're late to a already stretched out conversation. Again, before you came in here, all those models and the issue was addressed. Read back through the posts. Did you not see post # 2228 (re: ES300)?

    This part I can't resist:

    "I have never mistaken any model Lexus for another car. Have you, Merc1? "

    If you can't see where the LS430 is pure 1992-1999 S-Class then there is no use in going any further with this.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Call me lazy but I'm not going to go through 2000+ posts. I'll gladly read specific ones if you can direct me to them (#2228 is a wrong number...doesn't refer to a merc1 post on either this board or the ES board).

    If the LS is "pure 1992-1999 S-Class", have you ever mistaken one for the other, or do you know anyone who has? Personally, I think there is as much resemblence between the two as there is between a 2000-2003 S and a Ford Taurus. In other words, not much.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well then we're done because even the most
    devoted Lexus fans and owners see it. (That post was #2227). If you can't see the obvious then we just flat out disagree in every possible way and lets just leave it at that.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    OK, I've read 2227, where you write "The LX is a overpriced Land Crusiser and the ES300 is a very ugly luxed out Camry". When the Mercedes Vision GST comes out, are you going to call it "an overpriced very ugly luxed out Chrysler Pacifica"? Keep in mind that (in car industry terms, with the 5-7 year product cycles) the Mercedes-Chrysler merger is relatively recent. So down the road you can expect more of that sort of thing from MB.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    WHy does anybody bother responding to merc1's posts? He's obviously disturbed and get his stories straight. In some posts he says all of Lexus is copied from Benz, In other posts he says only the LS is copied. He can't even get his stories straight, why bother?

    We all know, outside of the LS, there is not one Lexus car with any hint of Mercedes styling.

    "Wow a NAV system has really pushed the envelope of car development. Where would cars be without them.....wow! Lexus is truly an innovator. Pluheease."

    Hey Merc1, if the NAV is no big deal, why do you make such a huge deal out of a stupid shift gate pattern? Wow! Please tell me, where the innovation in that is?

    "Everything they've done (except the RX300) is to catch up to or mimic somebody else, and not just Mercedes-Benz. "

    Again, where is the outright, across the board copying that you speak so highly of? Again,
    the ES300 copies what styling inside or out from Mercedes?
    The RX330 copies what styling from Mercedes?
    The GX470 copies what?
    The LX470 copies what?
    the IS300 copies what?
    the SC430 copies what?
    the GS copies what?
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    OK, I've read 2227, where you write "The LX is a overpriced Land Crusiser and the ES300 is a very ugly luxed out Camry". When the Mercedes Vision GST comes out, are you going to call it "an overpriced very ugly luxed out Chrysler Pacifica"? Keep in mind that (in car industry terms, with the 5-7 year product cycles) the Mercedes-Chrysler merger is relatively recent. So down the road you can expect more of that sort of thing from MB.
  • I do like Lexus, but:

    the IS300 is a blatant copy of the BMW 3-series in nearly every way

    The GS definitely owes a lot to the E-class, and the LS to the S-class.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    As a person who has 3 Lexus vehicles I will say that I agree - to a point - with Merc1 on the LS430 looking like a previous generation S-class. I'm sure Lexus execs will tell you that as well. But it stops there. I don't see any resemblance anywhere else in the Lexus line to MB, BMW or anyone else. The weakest part of Merc1's point to me has always been his view that the LS is a pure copy of the old S but the latter is beautiful and the LS is ugly. Sorry - but that fails the Logic 101 test.

    I love the past generation E-class styling but I don't even see a faint resemblance to it in the GS. I've seen the front headlights given as an example but that is absurd. If one were to buy that than my LX470 must be an E-class copy because it has similar headlights to the GS. Don't see any resemblance in the SC or IS (someone please explain what you see)and the SUV's are pure Lexus/Toyota.

    Is the LX470 an overpriced TLC? I certainly don't think so. But merc1 is entitled to his opinion.

    Now if you want to see cars that look alike I must say that I can't tell the difference between a Land Rover and the G-500. If there is an overpriced vehicle on the road the latter takes the cake. It looks tinny, small and cheap to my eyes.

    As for the Japanese as designers - they will never have the creativity of the Europeans or the Americans. When was the last time anyone saw a great movie from a Japanese director? These people are driven to perfection but not in creative design. But man can they make a car that is flawless and is built as well as any MB ever was.

    As for the design issue - it doesn't take much to hire a high quality Italian design team. When they do that all talk of poor styling and copying will end very quickly.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Well put.

    Mine is a 2 Lexus family. I don't care for their design work either, and chose Lexus for other reasons. The only Lexus I have admired (at the time), exterior-design-wise, was the old GS300 (well maybe the new RX330 too, but I haven't seen it in person yet). The old GS was Giugiaro-designed, so I absolutely agree that they should hire Italian designers again!

    But to say that every Lexus model is a copy of an MB or other design, as Merc1 does, is just not based in fact. You are right to point out Merc1's flawed reasoning as regards the S vs. LS.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,579
    "the IS300 is a blatant copy of the BMW 3-series in nearly every way".

    Please substantiate this as I don't see it. Yes, the look and the spirit of the car is patterned after the Bimmer, so is its performance and size. The interior and chronograph dash intstruments of the Lexus, etc. are nothing like the 3-series. Please educate us.
  • The handling benchmark was exactly pegged to the last generation 3-series. The inline six is intended to match the 3.0 in the 3-series. The 2.0 in Europe matches the 320i's horsepower figures and torque curve.

    The size and design are identical in terms of the way the car drives. Now it looks like a Celica sedan and has a different (and cheaper) interior, you do have a point.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I don't see what's wrong with 2 cars having the same displacement, torque curves, overall dimensions, etc.

    If Lexus, or anyone else, truly copies a BMW or MB or whomever's styling, it would be another story, and a legal problem as well. I haven't heard of Lexus being sued by anyone for copyright infringement over a car or suv design (as I believe DaimlerChrysler sued GM over the front grille design of the Hummer H2).
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Ok first of all do you understand that the upcoming Mercedes GST and the Pacifica are NOT based on the same chassis? The Land Crusier and LX470 are the same truck plus or minus a badge here or there and some leather. What makes the LX470 worth the premium over the LC. Nothing.

    maxhonda99,

    Why does any bother to respond to my posts? Same reason you are, you're in denial. Let me see if you can get this. There is a difference between copying a styling theme (a shiftgate pattern) and offering the same thing that EVERY luxury car offers (NAV). Do you understand that?

    It's amazing how you and syswei keeping asking the same questions like a broken record when YOU and I have discussed this before.

    ljflx,

    Well...I respect you a great deal but some of things you say are just so.... The G500 and Range Rover look alike but the LS430 doesn't look like a bloated Avalon? The S-Class looks like a Taurus? Come on now. Yes I said the LS430 is a copy of the previous S-Class and yes I think the old S looked better in it's day, but you keep leaving out a key word here, the LS430 is POOR copy of the old S-Class. Thats about the third time I've had to point that out to you. I know you get that. The LS430 has the side proportions, doors and roof of the old S exactly, but the front and rear ends are ugly as all get out. How do you know that the current GS didn't have it's front end patterned after the E-Class? The G500 is tinny and cheap, my you don't know as much as I thought. The G500 is a tank on wheels. It's in the same league as the Hummer H1 as far as it's intened purpose.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    Quite seriously. You are the broken record. Not to mention a broken record that contradicts himself at every turn.

    Hello. You can't tell you're a broken record.
    every 3rd post from you is about "copying".

    Not to mention you haven't proven anything except that the LS430 looks like a previous generation S-class. Okay, we've basically all come to that conclusion. Now get over it and move on. Obviously, it seems like you can't do that. What would that be called? Huh. Let's see-a broken record.

    If you want to discuss shiftgates(personally I think it's stupid since nobody seems to care except you). Let's talk about shiftgates. The new C-class has a leather shift boot, the German built Catera had it long before Mercedes did. So, since Opel/Vauxhall had it long before and Mercedes now has it, is it copying? Based on your definition, it sure seems like it.

    Oh, and let's not forget your other contradiction.
    in some posts you say only the LS430 steals styling cues from Mercedes and in some others you say every Lexus does. Which is it? make up your mind.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Okay, that's enough about the *participants* of this discussion. We are here to talk about the cars, not each other.

    Move on, please.
  • ejerodejerod Posts: 86
    I'm sitting here at my office on my lunch break reading all this stuff ( It helps that it's my company and I won't get fired for using the company computer for personal time.. lol) I own the 02 S500, the 03 SL500 and the Lexus GS300. I love all 3. The ONLY reason I didn't buy the LS430 was the look of the car. I didn't like the old body style S-Class so when Lexus came out with an even blander version of the same car they lost a potential customer. I can afford to buy anything made and I chose the Benz for it's styling handling and yes the all to often forgotten "head turning appeal " all in all BOth manufacturers are world class. I do agree with the gentleman that the Japanese can copy and improve on anything, but they do lack any creative gifts. Is the Benz overpriced ? Certainly, but being an economics major in undergrad I do understand why given the economic climate in Germany and the formation of the European Union. I also understand the reason I paid nearly 1500 less for the 02 GS than I did for my 99 GS is that the Japanese economy is about 200 yards from the gates of hell and still falling due to crazy political adn economic polices. Do I care ? As a consumer yes. If nothing else Lexus has forced all luxury car manufacturers to sop living off their reputation and start building cars that push the envelope with new designs and technology, all while having to compete on price. MB was forced to lower the price of their products across the board and to lure people like me they had to offer free maintenance for the first 4 years or 50k miles to overcome a common complaint amongst all lux car owners, high maintenance costs. So I say thank God for the Japanese and their " lets go kick some German butt" attitude. IN the long run we as consumers benefit when the worlds greatest engineers have a bar room brawl....:)Now if and when Lexus decides to build a better looking LS, I'll buy it. I even like the new BMW 7 series although I think they went overboard with the new technology. The salesman there told me that one is required to watch a 3 hour video prior to purchsing the car. I want to buy a car not watch a feature presentation.. anyway.. happy motoring
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    I said the G-500 looks tinny and cheap to my eyes. I also said it looks like a Land Rover not a Range Rover. For all I know the thing could be made of iron. But it's irrelevant to me. I've seen it several times (someone who lives nearby has a silver one) and it just plain looks like a cheap vehicle to me. I even remember Edmunds reviewing it and drawing to a similar conclusion. They said something to the effect they thought people would wonder what they were thinking a few years after they bought one. That was my thought exactly the first time I saw one. I think it looks like something out of the Al Capone era.

    As for the GS - I see no resemblance whatsoever to an E-class.

    Taurus - Similar rear lights to all MB's now, similar shape (look at the lines and curves on the side) and very similar rear deck lid. Look-a-like - No. The S is far more elegant and expensive looking. I think it's a great looking car. But I would seriously doubt that MB did not take some of those Ford styling cues and perfect them. Just my opinion.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    Don't know if you ever saw it but there was a story several years back (Fortune, Forbes or Business Week) of how Toyota set up their Japanese production cars to meet their desired profit goals at a Yen to dollar conversion of 90 or 92. At the time the dollar was very weak and the Yen looked unstoppable even though the Japanese economy was rapidly weakening, and Clinton was threatening a luxury tax. Thus a key reason that they have been able to hold prices so low is that the yen then weakened. They have been minting money as a result of that very efficient production system that they set up and the favorable exchange rate.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Like I said before read though the previous posts. You're just as guilty as me in playing that record. Do you see where you've asked the same question before and it was answered? Every 4th post from you is asking the same questions over and over. We just disagree, totally. It happens.

    ljflx,

    The Range Rover is a Land Rover product. Same difference, the G500 doesn't look like the RR, Disco or Freelander. You couldn't be more incorrect about the Taurus and the S-Class. I find it amazing that you see similarities between a Ford Taurus and a S-Class, but you don't find any between the LS430 and the Avalon.

    Something else you said came to mind today, you stated that a "performance SUV" was a "disaster waiting to happen", well guess who has one on the table because of Infiniti's FX45.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Lexus is just waiting for the next Benz to copy, utterly ridiculous:

    http://germancarfans.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=3338

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    That's a another great joke. The HPX concept looking like the GST. Gimme a break. The production GST isn't going to look anything like that concept GST, and the HPX isn't going to look a bit like that concept picture. I guess gotta wait until next week.

    And the HPX is merely a spin on the segment Toyota created with the crossover RX300, except larger(I believe based on the GS platform).
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Unbelieveble. Most people on that board see the same thing and the pictures are dead on, and yet the denial continues. Now the HPX is a "spin" a segment Lexus created. How much you wanna bet it looks like the GST when it comes out? You do know that purpose of the GST concept is to give you the basic look of the production car right? You know like what BMW just did with the X Activity concept in Detroit this year, giving you a preview of the X3. Why on earth would car companies do concepts like those (almost production ready) only to turn around and make the production version "look nothing like it". Tell me that Lexus is just showing the HPX for their health and that the production version isn't going to at least have a passing resemblence to the concept car. Did you see the M-Class when it was in concept form? The Boxster, Viper, Pacifica, 350Z. You're right those production cars don't look anything like the concepts that previewed them. The next Mustang isn't going to look "anything" like this year's concept car either. Oh so totally ridiculous. Now watch this 2004 LS430 try its best to look like the current S-Class. So yawningly predictable Lexus is.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    I'm fully arare of the RR/LR ownership.

    I'm trying to understand your whole issue here anyway. Is it an embarassment if MB follows styling cues of someone else. It's pretty smart business in my view as long as they don't violate any patents.

    I hope you don't believe that MB is nothing but original in nature and follows no one else's lead. If that were the case they are indeed in a business class all by themselves and its not something to be proud of.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yes it would be an embarrasment and totally ridiculous for the original carmaker to start taking styling cues from a Japanese brands who's sole existence was trumped up to mirror them. And to take something from Ford would be even more ridiculous.

    No Mercedes isn't totally original in every single respect and every now and then over the past 117 years they've had to take a lesson from others, but for the most part Mercedes-Benz has stood alone in it's leadership. You don't agree? Mercedes is clearly more of an innovator than Lexus will ever be. There was a reason why Japan's best didn't even look at Cadillac, Lincoln, Jaguar, Audi or even BMW (until recently) for their inspiration for a luxury car, but jeeweez 13 years later and they're still aping from you know who.

    Yes BMW began the whole thing in 1988 with the V12 750iL, and YES Lexus did change the landscape considerably in 1990 with new ways of selling cars and serving the customer. Not disputing that at all, my problem with Lexus is their ridiculous c ______y of that other brand. It's absurd. Nobody except a few Korean brands make their cars such knockoffs (LS430) stylewise. Even Infiniti has seen the light of having their own designs.

    And I also disagree with being a class of your own. Nothing wrong with that if everyone else is trying to get into your "class". Just ask BMW.

    M
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