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High End Luxury Cars

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  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Perhaps this is the inspiration for the CLR 600 concept?

    image
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Now that the complete C&D HELC comparo has been posted on the C&D website, the sour grapes spin has begun.

    For example, the entire test should be considered "invalid" since C&D should have announced it was testing a pre-production model of the Lexus LS460L. I wonder, if the LS460L came in first place instead of last, would the same critic of the comparo be noting that the result might not be accurate because the LS460L could have been a pre-production model and with a "real" LS 460L, the car may have finished lower down?

    Weren't the first 3 finishers (occupied by MB, Audi and BMW respectively) also possibly pre-production models?
    Sorry, but I am not buying this great conspiracy against Lexus in the print media.
    Let's face it, the car sinks or swims on its own merit. C&D is not looking to be involved in a scandal that could put it out of business.

    The C&D reviewer found regarding the LS 460L: "its dynamics don't hold up in hard-driving situations."

    Again from C&D regarding the LS 460L: "the variable-ratio steering was also cited for its uncommunicative nature and the electrohydraulic brakes were similarly peculiar in operation producing longer than expected stopping distances." Sounds exactly what I experienced driving the 2005 Lexus GS430-lousy brakes, lousy steering.

    In my opinion, the LS460L does not sound like an emergency maneuver confidence builder.

    After reading such a report, people who spin "conspiracy theories" and "it must have been a pre-production model" are living in a rather peculiar state of denial regarding their own personal safety.

    The end result could very well prove tragic and I hope anyone who has chosen the LS460L never has to put the vehicle through an aggressive emergency maneuver, attempting to avoid a collision with these brakes and steering.

    Please consider the Audi, MB or BMW instead.

    Stay safe out there.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    It looks like the price of ULSD eats into the apparent mpg advantage of modern diesels:

    Smooth power delivery made 35 mpg easily attainable during highway cruises, although the EPA-estimated 37 mpg remained just out of our reach. Combined with occasionally spirited city driving, our total observed fuel economy was less impressive, 24.4 mpg. This still trumps the estimated 19 city/26 highway of the E350, and with an MSRP only $1,000 higher, the $51,550 Bluetec really seems to be the better choice.

    Each time we fueled the Bluetec we noted the price of gasoline. We recorded the average cost of 91-octane premium at $2.60/gallon and 87-octane regular at $2.49/gallon. When averaging the cost of ULSD at each fill-up, we paid an eye-opening $3.19/gallon.

    At first glance it appears the diesel is at a disadvantage, but it actually comes out on top....Using our observed fuel prices, it costs the Bluetec driver roughly $64 while the E350 driver needs about $74 to travel the same 740 miles. Even running 87 octane at that rate has the diesel about $7 ahead. That adds up quickly over a few years of ownership.


    link title
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,065
    If I am not mistaken I believe diesel is cheaper than Reg. in Europe, and it should be here as well.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    If I am not mistaken I believe diesel is cheaper than Reg. in Europe, and it should be here as well.

    Depends where. Many European countries heavily subsidize their diesel, and unsurprisingly, those countries have a much larger percentage of diesel cars on the road than their neighbors.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    It really is a simple question:
    Would Lexus have released a pre-production LS 460 vehicle to C&D for testing unless it was reasonably sure it was an accurate representation of the actual production vehicle?
    They would have to be insane if it wasn't.

    What about the other reviewers who had issues with the brakes and steering? So there is only one 2007 LS going around for reviewing and it happens to be a pre-production vehicle which means it must be a Lexus in name only? :confuse:
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,065
    Powders, please take a break from trolling. No one is biting. It's Christmas!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Instead of lowering yourself by classlessly calling me a name, why don't you answer the question I posed?

    Would Lexus send a pre-production vehicle for C&D to test that would be significantly different in driveability than the production model?

    Also why would anybody pay more for an LS 460 when it has not been shown to be an improvement over the LS 430? Given the former's braking and steering (from the auto press reviews), the LS 460 appears to actually be a step backward.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Lexusguy is correct, the popularity of diesel in Europe has alot to do with tax incentives.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Eh,, that Benz looks more like an emulation of a 1973 Canadaian classic called the Bricklin.

    image
  • Yes, many European countries tax diesel less than gas which is in effect a subsidy, but as I understand it diesel is easier/cheaper to refine in the first place, so it's a complicated question.
    One of the reasons it's more expensive in the winter here in the US is because diesel is almost identical to home heating oil, which is in greater demand in the winter.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Even running 87 octane at that rate has the diesel about $7 ahead. That adds up quickly over a few years of ownership.

    That last line is a joke. Based on the author's figures saving $7 every 740 miles translates into saving $700 for the first 74,000 miles of driving. Whoopy Dooo! Is this what the author calls quick savings :confuse:

    Higher relative diesel prices in North America versus Europe is not only due to subsidies but also due to diesel refiniing capacity being more constrained on our side of the ocean.

    My three favorite cars during 2006 is the MB 320 Blutec, Lexus GS450H and the BMW 335i twinturbo. All three are my favorites because of the novelty of their engines. Unfortunately diesel prices IMO diminishes the importance of the Blutec Benz in North America. And unfortunately the trunk space of the GS450H diminishes its importance as a serious mid size luxury sedan.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    esf,

    IMO the twin turbo engine itself is worth the price tag of a BMW 335i. On top of the engine you get fantastic handling and an interior that is vastly improved when compared to older BMW models.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Actually that Benz concept came first, in the late '60s. It was called the C111, and had a rear-mounted Wankel rotary engine. A real oddball to say the least.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Even you should know how silly it is to conclude that the Maybach had a "misfire" and you don't know squat about the accident itself.

    Yes I've seen cars get ripped like that and their airbags didn't go off with the passengers standing at the side of the road.

    Cars are concieved and manufactured by people. They are mechanical marvels with thousands of parts. They are not perfect and sometimes there is a defect. The concept should not be that hard to grasp.

    Likewise if you don't know what makes an airbag fire in the first place (your words, not mine) then I guess that you haven't a clue about this shouldn't be too hard for me to grasp either.

    What I also grasp is that the only reason we're having this conversation is because it was a Mercedes-Benz product involved. Period. If it was a Lexus we'd hear about about how strong the body was and how it absorbed the energy from the impact and that is why the airbags didn't fire.

    Again, if you don't know what makes an airbag fire how in the world do you know it should have fired here?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I have never, ever seen so much whinning over a comparo. Now people are claiming to know many editors and how they're such an expert in the publishing industry so they're qualified to say the review was a joke. Knowing editors for non-automotive publications and being in the publishing industry has what exactly to do with testing cars?

    Yes, Car and Driver, the home of more LS400 and LS430 wins than anywhere else is now clueless, biased and most of all part of some conspiracy theory to dump on Lexus.

    Gee, the SL550 won a comparo, the S550 won a comparo, and in the Feb issue the E63 AMG beat the M5 and S6. Mercedes-Benz, uh...DCX must being paying the editors the most now because these cars can't possibly be the best in their respective classes, especially the SL.

    The LS430 was better than the LS460L so the LS460L should have creamed the competition. This would apply to the BMW, Jaguar and Audi, not a brand new Mercedes-Benz S-Class. Can't get an explanation for that or an acknowledgement that maybe, just maybe the S-Class moved the game on.

    This is the most classic case you'll ever see of living by the sword and dying by the sword. How can same magazine from brilliant to idiotic so fast? Did they change editors? I don't get it.

    That said, I'm sure there will be a comparo by someone that will put the LS460L on top at some point. Maybe based on a lower priced model with the sportiest suspension setup. Oh and a production model, not a pre-production model.

    Remember Car and Driver is being accused of trying to hide this little fact because they didn't use as much ink to tell the readers about it as they did in informing the readers that the A8 was a 2006 model. This is such nonsense it isn't even funny.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Would Lexus have released a pre-production LS 460 vehicle to C&D for testing unless it was reasonably sure it was an accurate representation of the actual production vehicle?
    They would have to be insane if it wasn't.


    Bingo! Yet there is utter silence when you point out that nearly every other time a LS won a comparo it was a pre-production model. How else does a magazine get a hold of a car months in advance in order to time the story with the car's actual release for sale?

    You mean to tell me Lexus didn't check this LS460L out for defects before handing it over?

    If you notice through out the history of C&D comparos this type of comparo comes up right around the time a new LS is released.

    The real kicker is that if this pre-production LS460L had won the comparo we'd be hearing about how superior Lexus is. Supplying a pre-production car that wiped the matt with the competition.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The real kicker is that if this pre-production LS460L had won the comparo we'd be hearing about how superior Lexus is. Supplying a pre-production car that wiped the matt with the competition.

    Personally, I don't really get what the big deal is. The guys in charge of the latest C&D HELC comparo were clearly looking for something that the LS460 does not possess, and because of that it lost. They didn't say it was a terrible car. If you are looking for driving excitement, look elsewhere. That sums up the LS400, the LS430, the LS460, and I have to assume that it will sum up the 2013 LS500.

    The LS460 is better than the car it replaces. If you love the LS (to the extent that you can love a car like the LS, anyway), that should really be enough, shouldn't it? Its C&D, not The Bible. Those stopping distances are a little worrying, but I don't recall seeing 200+ foot distances anywhere else, so that could have something to do with C&D's particular testing. I could be wrong about that.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I don't really take issue with anything you're saying, but I just don't get this about C&D being so brilliant one minute and idiots the next, the conspiracy theories, and so on. Every single review that doesn't put the car in the best light possible is deemed to have been written by clueless editors, while a review by Cnet is taken to be gospel. Something is wrong if you have to turn to a non-automotive publication for the best reviews on a car.

    I think the pre-production status is what caused the long braking distances.

    Mind you all of this is for those who used to boast about how the LS400 and LS430 whipped the competition oh so many times in years past, not you.

    Some say C&D was looking for the sportiest car. That isn't true either otherwise the BMW or Audi would have won. They picked the car that was the best all arounder, IMO. We all know the Audi and BMW can be driven like sports cars, but the lack that ride that a lot of luxury car buyers like, especially the A8 (according to some magazines) The S is able to deliver that "ride" with better handling than the LS and that is what puts it over.

    Truth be told I actually like this LS more than even the 1993-1994 LS400 (my previous favorite LS). I like the interior shots making their rounds in all the mag advertisments and the car does indeed set a new standard for Lexus styling out on the road. I rode next to a white LS460L the other day, dare I say it was actually good looking for a Lexus. The pipes coming through the rear bumper is nice touch, but I take it Lexus has tested this to make sure they don't melt anything.

    Actually it was a LS460L, a Bentley Continental Flying Brick, a CLS550, S500, 3-Series, and me (CLK430) all sitting in 2 lanes waiting at a light. I live the wrong area.

    M
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,292
    Mr. merc1, I actually think you are being rather reasonable here. The only thing I take issue with you on is your statement "every single review that doesn't put the car in the best light possible is deemed to have been written by clueless editors, while a review by Cnet is taken to be the gospel". I don't think that most of us LS fans are saying that all magazine reviews that do not paint a favorable picture of the new LS are clueless. However, I truly believe that C & D could have done a much more professional job in this review. To me and some others, they were extremely sneaky in not pointing out in bold black and white that this was a pre-production model. In fact, they did not even use a hyphen in the word, probably as an attempt to hide it as much as possible. On the other hand, most of us agree that the Cnet review probably went too far the other way. Let's face it. If THE best handling car is your cup of tea, then by all means go with the S550 or BMW. However, I would venture to guess that the majority of us "joe blow" drivers could not care less about THE best handling vehicle. Instead, we look for other qualities such as comfort, technological advancements, fuel economy, environmental concerns, etc., etc.

    Again, I appreciate your honest attempt to be fair. This is in stark contrast to some others (will not name names but you can well guess) on this board.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    All true. When you bring up significant questions like: would Lexus send a pre-production LS to C&D for testing that is significantly different than the production model in driveability? or, if the LS won the comparo with a pre-production model, would the same folks now calling foul be pointing out that hey, you know, it may have not won if a production model was supplied instead? What about the other vehicles in these comparos? Aren't pre-production models supplied for these tests all the time? If they weren't, how are the auto mags. supposed to test them in a timely manner?

    No. It is more convenient for some to resort to name-calling as one recently did, calling me a "troll." When you don't like what you hear or don't have the intellectual capacity to respond, resort to name-calling. Nice.

    Folks, if you have nothing to debate, please ignore my posts. I consider myself way too :shades: to get involved in stuff like that.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Regarding your ridiculous and paranoid "observation" that C&D purposely didn't highlight that the LS tested was a pre-production model:

    What difference does it make? Auto manufacturers send pre-production models for testing all the time. How else would the auto mags get their reviews off in a timely manner?

    Do you think the LS that won a previous C&D comparo wasn't a pre-production model? I didn't hear anyone at that time asking if it was a pre-production model that won.

    Do you think a manufacturer in its right mind would send a pre-production vehicle for testing that was significantly different in driveability than the production model?

    Face the truth. Let go of the state of denial. The new LS came in a dismal last in the comparo. If the average "Joe Blow" doesn't care about spending a fortune for mediocre brakes and steering, then that's his problem. The rest of us will continue to buy or lease MB, Audi and BMW.

    Also stop with the insinuations. You want to discuss cars, then do so. Please leave out that you will "not name names."
    This is a place to discuss cars. It is not the Spanish Inquisition.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,065
    I also don't know the technical aspects of how my computer works...but I know IF it is working or not. Don't try to hang your hat on a statement I made about not knowing how an airbag is set off, that's REALLY silly.

    I certainly know WHEN an airbag should go off and when a $200K+ car is totalled in a front end collision the airbag should deploy. That is my opinion and I think it is very reasonable. Your attempted brow beating won't change it. Now get over it.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,292
    You of all people here should never remind anyone about name calling. Enough said!

    BTW, no I don't believe that the other vehicles tested were pre-production models. The S550 for example has been out for a long time. The LS460L testing was done on August 29. The official release of the LS was about 2 months later. I don't think that Lexus was overly concerned that it was a pre-production model. They knew that this car would be a huge hit no matter what the reviews said.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "I don't think that Lexus was overly concerned that it was a pre-production model. They knew that this car would be a huge hit no matter what the reviews said."

    Well that's all well and good for Lexus corporate. Too bad that attitude hasn't filtered down to the Lexus faithful posters on these boards who are coming up with such creative excuses to wish away the last place finish in the C&D comparo.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    we should be talking about the cars and the reviews, but we do not need to be criticizing other posters.

    There's some eggnog and cookies on the table over there. Everyone help yourself!

    And go ahead and spike it, if you want - as they say, it's gotta be 5 o'clock somewhere. ;)
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    I couldn't agree with you more hpowders. What does it exactly mean a pre-production car anyway? I am sure that Lexus would put up a car as close to production as possible considering that it is attempting to challenge the icons of th HELM class. I think the results are what they are. I could as a staunch Audi supporter argue that the comparo was not fair to Audi as they used a "2006" version of the A8L and not the 2007 A8L with the new 350 bhp V8. The results might have easily been different considering that the S-Class won by one point (and a dubios one point at that). But, I willing the let the results stand as I am sure there will be plenty more in the future. No conspiracies here.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Many vehicles tested by the auto magazines are "pre-production" out of necessity. How can they test vehicles in a timely manner if they are not?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Gee, and in the Feb issue the E63 AMG beat the M5 and S6.

    That cant be? Impossible! That M5 must have been a pre-productiong model. And if it wasn't the case then that M5 may not have been a representative model. ANd if that is not the case then the C & D editorials' objectivity must have been tarnished somehow by MB. And if that is not the case then.............. ;)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Howard,

    the fact of the matter is this: The new LS is not earning the kind of glowing reviews that many had expected here.

    Have you read the LS CNET review ?

    Most of the review was raving about LS gizmos on the dashboard. Not much was mentioned on the way the car drives (how many Lexus owners really do care anyways ?)

    Those LS gizmos are meant for one and only purpose: To keep the driver entertained enough so he doesn't fall into snooze mode. Otherwise imagine the road hazards involved ? :)
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