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High End Luxury Cars

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  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    So what will be BMW's answer to Porsches' Panamera? The BMW X6. This will be a four door coupe version of the X5 SUV. The X6 will have AWD and a higher seating position than a MB CLS.

    One of the engines of this SUV coupe will be available with the same twin turbo engine as my BMW335i. In addition there may be a X6 with a 420HP twin turbo V8.

    Being frugal and a value hunter by nature I'd prefer a X5 over a X6 and a 5 series over a 6 series. Given a choice between two vehicles with the same platform and drivetrain I will always pick the cheaper one. I am so damned frugal sometimes I wonder what the hell am I doing in this HELC forum :confuse: My definition of HELC is a vehicle in which frugality and value are of no relevance.

    Sorry but the link below is only in German.

    AutoZeitung

    image
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I am sooo uninterested in a BMW X6.

    That photo looks like BMW's effort to refurbish an old WW2 tank. I wouldn't be caught dead in that. I have yet to find an SUV that I could be enthusiastic about.

    The BMW diesel offerings sometime next year could prove to be exciting. I will test drive any or all of them as they come out probably late in 2007. Perhaps the Mercedes Benz Bluetec too. Never drove any kind of diesel before. :surprise:
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,067
    Wow, that is one UGLY whatever it is.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    This will be a four door coupe version of the X5 SUV. The X6 will have AWD and a higher seating position than a MB CLS.

    That doesn't make any sense. First of all, SUV's technically have 5 doors. Second, there's no such thing as a "coupe-SUV", period. This is an SUV, and an ugly one at that. I'll take the Q7 over this in a heartbeat.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    They should win a prize for masking. I don't know what they're trying to hide. It will probably come out looking ugly anyway. Here's more of that spectacular masking:

    Motor Trend X6 Spy Shots
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "...there's no such thing as a 'coupe-SUV'"

    Well if sedans can be coupes with 4 doors, I guess this is BMW "creativity" at work.

    (I'll get around to e-mailing you about the Nuvi. Thanks.)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The S550 certainly isn't an S430, quite the opposite. And the LS460 is no bottom-feeder. Fair enough?

    Yep! We finally agree on something.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Don't waste your time there Hp.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yes, the word "preproduction" appeared once toward the end of the review. I would venture to guess that about 99% of the people reading that review passed right over that word without realizing it. I certainly did and I am sure most people on this forum did as well. I remember when it first came out a couple weeks ago that a lot of folks (if not all) on this forum thought it was a production model.

    I don't see how that could be possible. It clearly says "our pre-production model". I saw it right away. I guess you'll be surprised to find out that magazines test pre-production vehicles all the time, without mentioning it. They usually only mention it when something malfunctions or when the performance isn't up to spec.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yes, those are the qualities that puts the S-Klasse over its rivals in nearly every market around the world. The Lexus has the ride, but not the body control or high-speed stability/connected feel.

    To be fair though I don't think even a Buick bounces that many times now, or do they...lol?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I still wouldn't want the hybrid version though. I'd take the lesser model, say with "only" 300hp.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Everyting I've seen on this is says that it is supposed to be something like the Infiniti FX. It is either that or some type of R-Class competitor, which I doubt.

    M
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,067
    I don't see how that could be possible. It clearly says "our pre-production model". I saw it right away.

    Well, I am sure you did but when you originally posted this comparo you certainly didn't mention it. Thanks for the confession. I wondered at the time if you knew or not. I guess you just answered that question. Even when some of us speculated that it might be a preproduction model you were silent, but knew all along that it was.

    In other words you did all you could to keep it quiet and left it for us to dig out. One obscure word in a very large article. If this was not important then why were you trying to hide it?

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    As much as this has been beaten into the ground, I don't think anyone was trying to hide anything!

    Let's drop this line of conversation, please. It's time to move on.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well, I am sure you did but when you originally posted this comparo you certainly didn't mention it. Thanks for the confession. I wondered at the time if you knew or not. I guess you just answered that question. Even when some of us speculated that it might be a preproduction model you were silent, but knew all along that it was.

    You guys just don't seem to get that magazines test pre-production models all the time. There was no need to point it out, but like I said before they will if something is wrong with the car in question.

    Secondly the car didn't lose the comparo solely based on the things that were off due to it being a pre-production model. The LS460L's handling, trunk space and price also cost it points in addition to the long-braking distances and poor 0-60 performance, only the latter two things that could have been off due to pre-production status. I don't see why these facts are constantly ignored or filed under this "pre-production" excuse.

    In other words you did all you could to keep it quiet and left it for us to dig out.

    Boy you've got to really reach to come up with something like that. The bottom line is that the Lexus lost the comparo, and it lost badly and the excuse making has been nonstop every since. How and why in the world would I try to hide something in an article I posted here? How much sense does that make? None.

    One obscure word in a very large article. If this was not important then why were you trying to hide it?

    And the excuse making goes on and on. I posted the article, yet I'm trying to hide the contents? Makes sense to me. Ain't nobody try to hide squat so please spare me this nonsense.

    M
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    That's the end of this conversation. I can see you were probably writing this as I posted, but we're done with this now. People are just saying the same things over and over and we need to move on.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The BMW diesel offerings sometime next year could prove to be exciting. I will test drive any or all of them as they come out probably late in 2007. Perhaps the Mercedes Benz Bluetec too. Never drove any kind of diesel before.

    I love diesels myself but reality always gets in the way of my love.

    The reality is this:

    Diesel prices are not what they used to be. In the 80s when my father bought his 83 MB300D the price of diesel was sold at a discount. Today's premium diesel pump prices defeats the primary purpose of diesels which is cost savings.

    The 2.2 L Honda Accord lack of urea injection may make it a modest success. BUT the urea injection of larger diesel displacement engines that are offered by MB and will soon be offered byBMW and Audi will be no success. Why? Just imagine the thousands of diesel owners confronted with routine urea low level warning signals? Many owners with a busy schedule will view such routine visits as a hindrance. And just imagine overworked owners who have no time to get their urea topped up? These overworked owners will end up being stalled somewhere on a roadside.

    Do you honestly think such owners will be happy with such a diesel vehicle? Their negative opinions will definitely be expressed in CR/JD Power and affect the future sales of diesels.

    I anticipate that my next car will be a hybrid. As hybrids improve diesels will become a relic of the past.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    At least all us forum members are united in our disgust about the new BMW X6? When was the last time all HELC/HELM forum members were so united before? Never!

    What is the point of such a senseless and ugly vehicle?

    It appears the marketing volks at BMW did their homework. They know the trends and the trends dictated niche segmentation and mass customization of automobiles. Every single demographic/lifestyle group will be served with some kind of highly customized crossover/vehicle. Apparently BMW is not the only automaker that is trying to follow this trend.

    I call such marketing "Fluff over Substance", but that is just my opinion.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,316
    "Fluff over Substance"

    Yeah, but sadly, it seems to work every time it's tried.

    We'd go way, way OT if I listed the 10-20 automotive trends that have appeared over the past decade or so that illustrate your phrase, so I won't. But they've all sold like hotcakes.

    H.L. Mencken said it best: "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Well, I haven't read any complaints about the new diesels in the europress, but if as you say, diesels will create some problems for us over here, I would take a pass and look at conventional BMW's. You already know what I have my eye on.
    I'm pretty sure there will be quite a premium added to the BMW diesel vehicles' prices.

    I will of course be reading all diesel reviews and watching for potential problems as the reviews come out over here. I'm not going to lease a vehicle that will complicate my life.

    I can just imagine trying to search through 100 sub-menus with iDrive to attempt to fix a defective low urea warning light! LOL!!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I only wish BMW would get out of the SUV business.
    None of those beasts do justice to the proud "Ultimate Driving Machine" motto.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    It is either that or some type of R-Class competitor, which I doubt.

    Their RFK R-class fighter is supposed to be something else. I wonder if, after the market reception to the R-class, BMW will cancel that entirely.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    None of those beasts do justice to the proud "Ultimate Driving Machine" motto.

    I think the only SUV that could really be called an "ultimate driving machine" would be if the M division were allowed to go to town with the X3.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    On the subject of the X3 I notice you've come over to the dark side recently. Perhaps no one else on this thread realizes it. I think you should make a formal announcement here. ;-)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I've driven those BMW SUV's. You feel every road imperfection. Very jolting. Instead of the X3, folks should go with a 3-series wagon. That would be the intelligent choice, but I know, it's conservative and nerdy-looking.

    The X3 has a cheap interior. The X5 has a high-end interior with the nicest BMW wood, but you also feel every bump. Bad on the sciatica.

    Hey BMW. Give us more twin-turbo and diesel CARS!!!

    At the airport yesterday, I had a choice of 4 parking spaces-each between 2 skyscrapers. Doesn't anybody drive cars anymore?
    Has the world gone mad?
  • I have been away for a while. The "break-even point" was measured in regard to the cost per mile:

    If a car is leased with a capitalization of 92% of MSRP, with a 27-mo residual of 74%, then the leaser is paying (92-74=) 18% MSRP for 27mo/27kmiles. Assuming no interest subsidy at all. That is 1.5mo(1.5kmiles) for every 1% of MSRP in car payment. To reach that cost per month and per mile, someone who actually bought the car at 92% of MSRP has to keep the car for at least (92 * 1.5) = 138k miles! That's assuming the enjoyment of every mile is the same; i.e. the car is no looser for the 138,000th mile than the first mile. That's obviously not the case. There is no free warranty and wear item coverage after the first 50k miles.

    As to your argument about buying lease returns. Well, like I said, used cars are a different merchandise. There are significant reliability issues and cost of maintenance after the first 50k miles. Just for the sake of argument, let's take a look at the numbers. If a person is to drop the car after 100k miles, there are 73k miles remaining between 27k mile lease end and the 100k mile end of meaningful service life. Even assuming all miles are equal among those 100k miles (which they obviously are not; new car miles are more enjoyable and have maintenance covered, unlike old car miles after the first 50k), how much should you pay for the remaining 73k, at most, given that a new car can be had for 27k miles at 18% MSRP? Using the same 1.5k miles per 1% of MSRP, that translates to no more than (73k / 1.5) = 48% So you should not pay more than 48% of MSRP for the car when it is a lease return after 27k miles. How many Certified Preowned BMW's with 27k miles are priced below 48% of its original MSRP?

    Between these two sale events, if carried out rationally, 18% + 48% = 66%; that's how much BMW should really be collecting for the life-time value of the car, at most, given that it's willing to give away the prime cut first 27k miles for 18% of MSRP. Goes to show you how ludicrous the MSRP is, and why leasing is essential if you want to get past that 30+% BS.
  • Remember the incident when C&D test drove a BMW 3 series, its DSC went on a fritz and nearly flipped the car? That was a production car! Was that car representative of BMW 3 series? Shall we then derive from that particular car that all 3 series go into flip mode when called on to do emergency braking?

    Pre-production models simply have even higher probability of exhibiting one-in-a-kind malfunctions than production models.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I guess I missed that one. I do remember CR testing an early X5 and declaring it unsafe because it came dangerously close to tipping over in their accident-avoiding maneuvers.

    If I read that C&D nearly flipped a 3-Series, I would eliminate the 3-Series from my list. I would not get defensive and look for excuses against the C&D's testers.
  • Here's the link:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/10391/2006-bmw-330i.html

    C&D not only excused the E90 330i, they used braking numbers from a previous test under entirely different circumstances and then gave it First Place in the comparo despite the obvious disqualification event.

    BTW, I agree with your hypothetical response. That's why I have a hard time putting BMW's and MB's on my shopping list despite their relatively low cost of acquisition.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I've driven those BMW SUV's. You feel every road imperfection. Very jolting. Instead of the X3, folks should go with a 3-series wagon. That would be the intelligent choice, but I know, it's conservative and nerdy-looking.

    The X3 has a cheap interior. The X5 has a high-end interior with the nicest BMW wood, but you also feel every bump. Bad on the sciatica.


    Maybe with the sport package, but the standard X3 with 17" wheels has excellent ride quality. The interior is much improved in the new '07s. Its certainly better than the RDX and Land Rover LR2.
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