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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    It's just you. I don't think any of these cars wins any exclusivity contest "hands down". They all have very valid pros and cpons, and all represent excellent cars. To each their own.
  • msgreenmsgreen Member Posts: 67
    this is not a bad car, lots of features, good power and reliability, (looks arguable like many cars), but it just does not sell very well. Anyone have any info on what Nissan plans to do with this car next year? In the future?
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    If they do anything like what they have done with the rest of their product line, it could be awesome.

    Nissan was on the 'brink' and has come back storming!

    What they gotta do though on their Infiniti cars is get rid of that fish-like, pucker mouth grill design! The M45 has the worst front view on any car I know.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    THe problem with the Q45 and M45 is that they are very unmemorable design wise. I am sure I have come across them, I just don't know what they look like. Any other car in this class I am able to take mental note of an remember.

    Nissan is going for nice design work as of late, though, so probably they'll fix it in the end. All in all, Nissan is the brand that has gone through the most dramatic transformation. Great turnaround job at all levels.
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    Nissan has made many new entries and redesigns of late, BUT the jury is still out on many of these. In the car category, only the Altima and the Z are doing well. The 2004 Maxima was a bomb ! The Quest is polarizing in design, ditto the Murano. None of whom are breaking any sales records YTD, at least against the competition. No one remembers the Sentra even exists; the redesigned Corolla pretty much squashed that one out.

    In the luxury class, the M, Q, and QX combined do not register a blimp on the car sales chart. Duds, I call them. Here, as with Nissan, only two models are doing well - the G and the FX.

    In the truck/SUV class, their two new entrants - Titan and Armada - are way too new to judge. Only time will tell if Nissan entered the ring too late, or came to the party loaded and ready to take on the challenge of the big boys from Ford, GM and Toyota. We'll see. The Pathfinder has pretty much disappeared. Sad to see a good car go.

    Nissan/Infiniti has a long road ahead, while they have made some good strides, the market has told them they have a ways to go yet. They are a very distant competition in the lux class, barely registering on the richter scale of luxury sedans/trucks.
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    Sorry if I offended you. Don't mean to.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't think I ever claimed that price was the sole reason for lesser sales, or that all buyers fit into certain categories, my point was that price is a factor for some, and such price differences can't generally be ignored or labeled a non-factor.

    M
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    New Altima continues well, 15th in top 20 of total vehicles sold including pickemups.

    Altima 187K units YTD

    Nissan has sold 2X as many units as VW: 727K vs 361K

    The Z is outselling the Corvette 2 to 1 and has caught the dying Mitsu Eclipse which is down 45% YTD over 02.

    Murano has sold 52K units, 2X the Mercedes ML.

    The new Quest is up 16% YTD at 19.4K units, sells more than 2X Ford's new Freestar.

    Seats is seats. They are doing ok.
  • gscoupegscoupe Member Posts: 30
    Price is certainly a factor, but has different effects to different people especially for a luxury brand that serves as a status symbol as well. We are not talking about Toyota and Chrysler here. Sure a Mercedes can be too expensive for some, but to others, their high price is their strong appeal. For some, if it's not more expensive, it just isn't good enough.
     I'm not surprised that affluent people that works with financial experts like ljflx are usually prudent with their finances. But believe me, there are many rich people who don't know or don't care to manage their finances and are excessive reckless spenders. One only has to look at some of those that inherit big fortunes or in which money comes easy like certain celebrities, and how excessive their spending habits are.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That was my point. A guy that inherits $5-10+mln is far more likely to buy a Maybach or Rolls than a guy who earned $5-10+mln. Ditto for the lower priced luxury cars - primarily from a stature standpoint. Found money (whether inherited or made in a stock bubble or made by celebs where stature is part of the job) will always be spent more wrecklessly than earned money regardless of whether you are talking about cars, jewelry or expensive electronics. All of the multi-millionaires I know earned their money. Do they spend it? Sure. One guy I know very well - who drives an old MB SEL, and a new LS430 - has had his home featured in Architectual Digest. He moved to Lexus from MB because he believes they build cars the way MB used to. I agree with him. His worth is well over $100mln. He'd never spend his money on a Maybach even though his interest income in a year can buy a couple of dozen of them.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Since it's obvious that $100k+ cars do not sell in huge numbers (it seems all super-luxury cars that have been launched recently, except for the Bentley GT, have been disappointments), it misses the mark to say that price is a non-issue to "many rich people". If that was the case, they'd bypass the S-class and go even more exotic, wouldn't they, and *really* show off what they can spend. They don't. Thus the logic is flawed, and that can be proven with actual sales data in hand: price does play a very significant role in every car segment except for the true exotics. And the super-exotics just get turned over at a constant rate annually.
  • gscoupegscoupe Member Posts: 30
    we are not talking about the $100K+ cars here, so I don't think we are missing the mark. The vast majority of cars Lexus, MB, BMW as well as other lux brands sell has overlapping price range, & within this overlapping price range, it's safe to say that buyers can afford any brand within, so price is only one of many different factors in their decision process. And you're still neglecting what many MB & BMW salesman had been saying to their potential customers, that their initial seemingly higher price, could be cancelled out by the expected higher resale on many of their models, plus you get free maintainence service over the warranty period, so at the end of the period of ownership, it's a wash,your real cost of ownership which matter most,isn't higher, plus you get the Mercedes or BMW logo.There is no flawed logic here.BTW, one of the reason the Infiniti Q45 isn't selling despite their lower price is that their resale value sucks, & that it's real cost of ownership isn't lower (or even worse)than it's more expensive competitors
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Actually I don't think it really is a wash. Never trust car salesman!!! The salesman of expensive cars have even MORE incentive to lead the poor buyer astray.

    TAKE MAINTANCE UNDER WARRENTY.

    If you can afford a $70,000 to $95,000 car you don't want the hassel of constant warrenty repairs...the money is less important then the inconvience. You expect a well made RELIABLE machine that wouldn't strand you somewhere even if the repair is free.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ".. you're still neglecting what many MB & BMW salesman had been saying .." Oh, paragons of truth that salesman are.

    The resale stuff... then why is the MB's leasing cost $400+ higher than Lexus'? Depreciation figures highly into leasing costs, and yet... anyone making even very good money *will* care about spending an additional $400 a month, I guarantee that. It's just about the perceived value that $400 buys.

    The price *is* an issue for many buyers, even with these cars. It is not the only issue, nor does it mean they couldn't wing the higher priced car if they really wanted to - they chose not to for a number of reasons, including price. Would more people chose the MB if the price were lower? Well, it isn't, and thus it's immaterial to speculate about it. The fact is Merc can afford to demand a premium, and it works for them.

    Again, it's perceived value. Some people think the MB brand justifies the premium, some think it doesn't, and some simply don't want to pay the additional money - there are a lot of motivations out there, and to lump things into any generic statement does indeed miss the mark.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'm completely with you on this. MB residuals have also gone downhill quitte a bit since I priced an LS430 vs. an S-500 lease in 2001. Someone posted a WSJ article a while back that they are lower than both BMW and Lexus. So the residuals do not help and in fact hinder MB pricing even more.
  • oac3oac3 Member Posts: 373
    You stated: "Some people think the MB brand justifies the premium..."

    Permit me to jump in here.

    I just returned from lunch with a colleague. Here is an example of someone who agreed with that premise. But here is the reality of her experience.

    In Sept. my colleague's wife bought an '03 E320. That car has seen more of the inside of the repair shop than on the road. In 3 months, with only 1,000 miles, it spends most of its days in the shop. Here are the problems. Currently, it's now 17 days in the shop.

    Electrical (what else is new !). The car won't start in the morning, bcos the smart key and the ecu can't agree that the owner want to drive the car off the carport/garage. After sometime waiting in the car, she puts in a second and third attempt, and the car still won't start, making some whirring noise under the hood. MB technicians come over, get the car started and towed to the shop. To duplicate the problem = 3 days. Once a solution is deviced, it takes another 3 days just to be able to test it on the car, bcos that's how long it takes to get the car started.

    The wife has filed for lemon law protection, and waiting to hear on this. She is very disappointed and quite upset, really that MB will complicate an otherwise excellent car, with such electronic gadgetry that confuses instead of improving the driving experience of such a lux car. Oh, she paid a mere $55K OTD in Sept on the 2003 E320.

    I guess we have people who aspire to buy these super-lux cars, only if they knew what they'd be buying. That free mainatainance on the warranty ! You'll need every day of it. I am glad I don't own one of these lemon MB's. Judging by the list of owners with similar problems, MB is in for a long hard time in the future.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi all,

       I think all this talk of MB's demise is being overstated. It simply appears Mercedes is having some issues of late. Given their long history, I'm sure they'll be able to recover. A company like MB won't just cease to be a competitor. Cars like the SL500 indicate that they are still very capable of producing an unbeatable world class car.

        I've said this many times: I see a trend in the luxury carmakers to cram their cars full of electronics. Is there really any purpose for parking radar and all these other useless gimmicks? Like anything, the more complicated the design, the more problems you are going to face.

    I think Jaguar has done the best job of making sure the new age toys aren't too intrusive. I'd pit Lexus second, only b/c I have to switch on the Touchscreen to access my climate control settings. Being greeted with "The Lexus Link System is Active" every morning in my LS430 is driving me nuts. Maybe I'm too much of a purist, but I really think this electronics rage is going too far.

    As for the MB vs Lexus debate. We've all argued to no end that Lexus builds a superb car. The only legitimate complaint that the MB camp may have is the insipid designs they've been turning out as of late. I was given a brand new ES330 for a loaner..Fantastic car inside, and drove beautifully. But the exterior design provokes nothing more than a Yawn. There is absolutely nothing engaging about it whatsoever. I'm anxious to see the what the 2006 LS looks like. If it's another S Class clone, I'll be terribly disappointed.

    SV
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    This sure sounds like Mercedes dodgeball 101 that a friend of mine who was a MB Salesperson here in Boston was 'indoctrinated' with at their store.

    IMHO: Mercedes problems are many and they are not 'just having some issues' nor does the 'all cars these days are full of electronics which are complicated' argument pass the common sense test given that Lexus can build the same advanced technology and integrate it.

    Plus most of the 'advanced technolog' these days is coming from innovations in the supplier base not from the car companies. Manufacturers that work with their suppliers and still can't get technology to integrate and work properly in their cars are being poorly managed and have the wrong priorities. There are NO excuses.

    Mercedes incidence of failure, defect levels and dissatisfied customers is the HIGHEST in the industry amongst luxury brands per JDP. It's a trend that has been underway for over a decade.

    I think that the Mercedes business approach to putting brand management before customer satisfaction is self correcting.
  • gscoupegscoupe Member Posts: 30
    Sometimes, I'm wondering whether you are completely following what we are talking about in the recent discussions.Mercedes competes with Lexus & other lux brands for sales way lower than $100K for probably at least 90 % of the cars they sell. You keep harping on the extreme end case of $400 per month more for a S500 vs. a LS430,whereas the vast majority of the competition occurs at a much lower price difference, & I thought it was you who said we shouldn't pick one case or one factor & broadly apply it to all cases. LOL !! Yes, & people do cross shop between a LS430 & a E500, & unlike some Lexus fans here, I do think there are legitimate & justifiable reasons why a person would pick a E500 over a LS430. I do think the LS430 is more car & a "better" car overall. But, it's no good for a person who has $55 to $70K to spend who want a smaller, sportier sedan and don't care about reliability because it's not intended for daily transportation.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    are deeper than most want to believe. Today I took delivery of my GX470. As I went out to the huge garage - that looks like a place where Boeing would assemble planes - I encountered a couple looking at the GX I was taking. The couple was finalizing an order on a GX with the same color combo I took (or I should say my wife took as I still prefer the LX - but this GX is awfully nice, I must admit) and wanted to be sure they liked it in that combo. The guy asked me about what led me to the GX and as it turned out he was coming out of an ML350 that gave him a lot of problems including various automotive ones. He said he had been buying MB for 20 years but when his E lease expired a few years back he switched over to the GS and went from a problem car to a perfect one and now was expecting the same from the move from the ML to the GX.

    We hear all these accolades about big powerful engines and how the auto rags love performance but in the end if cars this expensive don't function as close to perfection as possible than the experience is a disappointment and all that bragging for a tiny fraction of performance cars is irrelevant. This guy told me the last great car MB built was the old S-class. He's an engineer and fully appreciated the great things MB has done in the past, but in his words the game is electronics now and in that regard the Germans are way behind the Japanese. The problem is MB needs to stay number 1 and to do so they need to lead in an arena where they are trumped. I think the reliability problems will deepen and as they do the brand image will suffer more and more.
  • gscoupegscoupe Member Posts: 30
    you also neglected the fact that the fair comparison is really between the S430 & the LS430,where difference in price, or lease rate is much smaller than $400/month, not the case of ljflx where he is comparing pricing/lease rate of the S500 and the LS430 when he was car shopping a couple years ago.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The problem with that is the LS430 is much more comparable to the S-500 in power. They are about equal with probably a nod to the LS430 - forget the horsepower figures - and deliver the quick acceleration and torque power you'd expect at these price points. I was initially looking at the S-430 and moved away from it right away because it felt underpowered. The S-500 is a much better car than the S-430 (to me at least) and is the real comparable to the LS430. It is the embodiment of the S-class to me. On pricing the S-430 was about $180 more per month than the LS430 in 2001 and only about $200 cheaper than an S-500. You could take your argument and say for a $200 a month difference why would anyone buy an S-430 instead of an S-500. Yet more S-430's are sold than S-500's.
  • gscoupegscoupe Member Posts: 30
    well, they look exactly the same & you can order them debadged & it still carries the Mercedes logo.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The Mercedes 3 pointed star doesn't impress me but the S-500 did and I needed it to make the comparison to the LS430 a fair one. I do understand your point though. I just don't agree with it.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Your point now is confused. Either you claim the cost of ownership is the same and thus the brand doesn't matter (a point which is indeed inaccurate), or it isn't. You're trying to state both at your convenience.

    And the key point is that even people who *could* wing either purchase *do* decide to save themselves the additional money - because they don't see the added value, *and/or* because they like to keep $20k in their pocket and vacation for 2 weeks at the Grand Wailea on Maui.

    Again, to claim people don't care whether they spend $60k or $75k is somewhat silly. It's perceived value, and the motivations are highly personal. Doesn't make one car "better" than the other, or one buyer dumber than the other.

    Mattox -

    as to luxury buyers don't wanting maintenance hassles, I don't know, Bentley or Rolls or Ferrari would have gone out of business eons ago if that was the case. Different people expect different things, and some people are very willing to put up with idiosynchrasies.

    Finally, I doubt any experience that winds up calling for leman law is a "typical" Mercedes experience. Sure they have lemons, but it's *not* the typical scenario. That's an exaggeration that does not realistically reflect whatever quality issues MB might have had.

    Also, my wife uncle's LX470 has been trouble ridden, too. In 6 months, it's been in the shop far more often and longer than my wife's '99 ML320 (which has been utterly problem free despite the M's reputation, never been in the shop for anything except maintenance). None of these experiences actually prove much - it's all highly circumstancial stuff.
  • dwongswongdwongswong Member Posts: 62
    I've been reading about many arguments to what car is the best (Mercedes, Lexus, BMW, etc.). I like to put in my two-cents. When I buy a car, these are my criteria (in order of most important to least) for what car I will choose:
    1. price (most important to me because I can't pay cash for a car--at least not yet)
    2. exterior styling (it has to catch my eyes because I'm the one who has to look at it everyday)
    3. interior ergonomics (I have to sit in it everyday, so it must be comfortable, good to look at, easy to use, and great fit and finish)
    4. reliability (if it's in the shop a lot, what's the use of paying so much money for one)
    5. fun to drive (does it have enough horsepower, do I like the way it handles, is it quiet, does it shift smoothly, does it make my commute not feel like I'm in hell)
    6. service (good service from the time of the sell, easy to make appointments to bring my car in for routine maintenances, good loaner cars, having my car ready and clean when they say it will be finished, and if it needs to be fixed, it will be fixed right the first time)
    7. resale value (it doesn't take a hit if I want to sell it)

    I did not put prestige because only what I think is good about the car matters, not what others think. Too many people buy things to show off--that's a shame, because if you ever are down on your luck, will those people ever look at you the same? I also think that if a car is beautiful to you, then that's all that matters, because looks are subjective.

    Happy Holidays! And as always, drive safely out there.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Footie,
    As a Lexus owner myself, I certainly can understand your point of view. Lexus has done a great job of integrating all these new electronic toys into their cars. My complaint was more along the lines of "These electronic toys are getting too intrusive" I keep my old 92 LS just to get away from all of it. Some advances such as the Nav system are welcome, but I never really had much use for the parking radar and laser guided cruise control. Maybe it's just me, but I feel all this electronic gadgetry distracts from the driving experience.

    I still think reports of MB's demise are far too premature. MB has its' problems no doubt. But you can't discount their 100+ yr history. If anyone is capable of turning things around it's MB. I recognize the surveys you've presented, and agree that they're in a rut. Give them a few years and I'm sure they'll work something out. Lexus needs to take full advantage of MB's downturn and release more performance orientated cars to steal some more market share. The new concepts posted on this forum are very exciting and I hope Lexus will put them into production.

    I hope do you realize that Merc will launch into one of his long diatribes over your posting. LOL.

    SV
  • gscoupegscoupe Member Posts: 30
    My point isn't confused, maybe it was you that are confused at what I'm trying to convey.That's why I said I'm wondering whether you really follow what we're discussing about. I never said nor imply that the brand doesn't matter(that's an individual preference),just that the cost of ownership could be the same in many cases, not the extreme & unfair comparison at the highest end that the 2 brands are competing between a S500 & a LS430 you try to quote lfjx. Again, you are still trying to use one case or one set of consumer behaviour that support your case, and broadly apply it to all consumers at all price ranges, exactly the same thing you suggest that we shouldn't do in an earlier post.
    Some people will try to save money, others will want to get the more expensive brand for status & bragging rights.
    I never said nor imply it makes no difference between spending $60K and $75k, again putting words in my mouth. What I'm saying is you are not really spending the extra $15K if you can resell the more expensive car for $15K more after ownership period. Even if you can resell it for only $10K more, you factor in the free scheduled maintainence that MB (& BMW)offers, the real price difference becomes very minimal, not nearly as important as you and some others are trying to imply. We all know that Mercedes is the brand name with the top resale value in the US all along until the recent article ljflx mentioned that suggest MB's future projected resale values will fall out of the top 5 ? Thus suggesting price alone is an important factor that Mercedes shouldn't be selling more makes no sense to me.Price is only one of many factors that has an impact on sales. MB , Lexus & others do compete in selling at least 90 % of their cars at an overlapping price range.

    Discussing here in the past couple days reminds me of why I've been reading this board for a year, & have resisted joining until recently. Not necessarily directing against you, but I've seen so many confused poster with flawed logic & reasoning, misquoting others, bickering & spreading misinformation, deliberately or not. My last post on this topic, I'm outta here.
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    Like ljflx alluded to, MB problems are serious. No, they are not going away anytime soon, but if you add-up the many issues they face today - reliability worse than Chrysler's, electronic problems, resale values down, down sales (now #3 and about to become #4), tug-o-war b/w Eaton/Schrempf (liars, and lying lies, and ....), need we add more ? Yes, MB is not going to go away, but they sure are hurting, and the hurt will continue unless they solve these structural issues.

    We have seen a 110+-yr-old Barron's Bank go under in just 1-DAY !!! A crooked employee *playing* with derivatives and stuff. Billions of dollars worth of a bank down the tubes .... No one thought it was possible, but it did happen. Poof !
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Bently, Rolls etc are specality cars that are driven by VERY FEW people. They are driven very few miles and are generally not a daily driver.

    These cars production numbers are in the 100s per year...they are not germain to this discussion...

    As to the LX470 (Your wife's uncles car) I have a hard time believing you for several reasons.

    1) Knowing how you feel about cars and this debate I would think you would have mention these problems before now.

    2) You didn't mention what the specific problem is.

    3) Knowing something about Lexus service I believe they would have replaced the car by now if what you say is true.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    If the resale value of the Benz was really as high as implied, then it's hard to explain the leasing difference (which is between an S430 -not S500- and an LS430). How can the cost of ownership be the same for someone leasing the car for $400 more a month? I mean, come on, this is very basic math. The Merc *is* more expensive to own, period. It's just not up for dispute.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    You are wrong - I have no vested interest in any of this, so you don't "know" how I feel about these brands. I don't own nor do I want a Mercedes. I don't own nor do I want a Lexus, even though the SC430 does appeal to me (more than any MB offering other than the CL, which I wouldn't get because a friend has had a horrible ownership experience with).

    I have no specific insight into the LX470 issues other than the complaints of my wife's uncle, because I don't give a hoot and have no interest in what the issues are. I never have felt like making conversation out of something that seems to upset the other person, and since the LX470 is not a car I'd get, I have little interest in researching it. I know it's nothing that impedes the car from driving, and that's about it. Whether you believe it or not I don't care, but your insinuation that I'd resort to lying in this thread means I won't read or reply to stuff you write henceforth.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Your point is purely theoretical and only works in percentages anyway and not in real dollars. It doesn't happen that way in the real world. For an $85k MB S-500 to work out to an equal cost to a $70k LS430 the S-500 would have to hold 8-10 percentage points higher in residual than the LS430 after 3-5 years. If this was the case and interest payments were equal than the lease payments or cost to own would be the same. But its not. They both hold about the same residual percentage after 3-5 years and and in fact the S-class is actually lower based on that WSJ article. In 2001 the S-class leases I was being offered had a 1-2% higher residual built in than the LS after 3 years but those residuals didn't hold up in the real world. On top of that the lease money factor was 1+% higher and offset just about all of the higher residual percentage in the lease anyway. So whoever financed MB leases in 2001 would have been hurt at lease end on the residual though the higher interest rate taken earlier would have pretty much equalled the score.

    Leasing has many factors - not just residuals. In 2001 Japanese interest rates were 3-4% lower than European rates. Toyota (and any Jaoanese brand) could haver undercut the whole market but they didn't.

    The days of MB holding the high residuals it did in the past are long over. Twenty years ago MB made the best buillt and safest cars that had the highest reliability ratings. But now there is too much competition and they couldn't hold up those qualities, They are still living off that past reputation but it is less and less an influence each year. This doesn't mean they don't build excellent cars. It just means the field has caught up to them and in some cases has surpassed them. Long-term car residuals are held up by high quality reliable cars not by brand names.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Right now, leases on LS430's from TFS have 56% residuals for three years and a money factor of .0018 ( about 4.3% ).

    Leases on S430's from MBCC have 54% residuals for three years and a money factor of .00225 ( about 5.4% ).

    The MB depreciates faster and MBCC factors in more risk with their leases and has to ask for higher interest rates from its customers.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    http://www.autobild.de/projektor/projektor.php?artikel_id=5531&am- p;pos=1

    Heavens, it's merely a luxury VAN... I expected a bit more attitude of the GST.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Are Lexus and Infiniti. Hands down they beat Cadillac's offerings.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    When I moved to the USA in late '95, a Lexus and an Infiniti were the first cars I got -one for me, one of my ex girlfriend- based on the reputation for reliability. I was getting grounded in a new environment, and the last thing I wanted was car trouble. Neither the SC400 nor the M30 convertible lived up to the reputation for utter reliability, after my ex and I broke up -and she moved back to Europe- I decided to trade them both in an simply go for more passion, since the cars had been acting up anyhow. I got an XJS. The SC went through 4 batteries for reasons unknown, and had paint fade all over the back of the car, and the M30 had ridiculous convertible top issues. Both service departments were excellent, and despite the spotty track record of both cars I don't hold the experience I had against the brands, but merely to bad luck, and who knows what my ex had done to the Infiniti top, she was not what you'd call a caring owner. I haven't brought up either experience up in this thread because I believe it is merely circumstancial and meaningless stuff, but since you feel like doubting my credibility, there it goes. Anyone that does a search for my user id on this web site will find allusion to both ownership experiences -without any brand bitterness- throughout my years on these boards.

    I'll also freely admit to feeling downright antipathy for the MB brand until my wife wanted the ML badly in the post-Jurassic Park marketing craze, when the ML became *the* car to have for a while. Despite my expectations, the car has proven to be a total darling, which comes to show how much you can trust brand perception stuff.

    That is why I don't believe at all in going by reputation that others repeat at nauseam when it comes to car purchases: as a rule, when I have done that, I have been underwhelmed. Bad luck. And the cars I had the lowest reliability expectations for -the XJS convertible and the ML- proved to be utter darlings that didn't have one single issue other than going in for maintenance intervals.

    Oh, just to ridicule your doubts about the authenticity of my claim, I offer this forum to post a picture of my wife uncle's LX470 and his wife's Jaguar XKR, parked side by side in their house, by the end of the day tomorrow on my web site. In turn, you'll have to shut the hell up. I find it pathetic of you that, when one single message doesn't agree with your small-minded view of the car universe, you have to resort to accuse someone of lying.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    No one accused you of lying...I simply said I didn't believe you there is a difference.

    While your Uncle is in town I would be interested to know what has kept his Lexus in the shop for most of 6 months. Glad to see it is back on the road.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    You said you didn't believe what I'd said, and I have never claimed it has been in the shop "most of the time". All I stated is he's unhappy because he's had to bring it into the shop several times. The only problem I have heard about has to do with the DVD player that's built in, the other issues I am utterly unfamiliar with - I know my wife had to pick him up from his company once because his car had some issue. And I have heard him complain about it. That's all. He had an LS400 previously, and was a vocal Lexus advocate. Oh, and his wife had an SC400, so they were an all Lexus household for a while, but she went Jag. None of this means he won't buy a Lexus again, nor is it meant to remotely indicate that Lexus is not a desirable car brand. All it means is that everybody is mortal, and if you look closely enough all brands will have occasional issues - the key to the luxury buyer is how they deal with it. It is utterly unrealistic to expect that any complex engineering device will always be utterly and totally flawless every time. Eventually statistics will bite one of us.
  • blockislandguyblockislandguy Member Posts: 336
    Footie, nice post. Does it mean that there is really no significant difference in residuals (I calculate a spread of .035 or so) and money factors?? If, so can we agree that the total ownership cost is about the same?
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    blockislandguy

    I don't know what the '.035 spread' you refer to means.

    Here's my math on a hypothetical example.

    The residual % is applied to the MSRP in most leases.

    In the case of a 65K Lexus LS430 (well equipped but not maxed) that 56% would be $36.4K. Depreciation would be $28.6.

    A comparable S430 would be MSRP'd around $78K (I think)

    So it would have a residual of $42,120 and depreciation of $35,880.

    Independent of money factors, depreciation on the Benz would be $208 / month higher over 36 months.

    If you do the math on the money factors and assume cap cost at MSRP deals for both cars ( not likely, particularly in the case of the Lex ), the net lease difference favors the Lex by $316 / month pre tax - about $11.3K lower than the Benz.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I see we still have some counting Mercedes' 4th place in the sales race as one of the many problems they have, despite them having the most expensive cars out of all the "mainstream" luxury car makers. But no, this doesn't make a difference, people will do whatever they can to get the cash to buy more Benzes to make then #1 in sales because of prestige, nevermind they'll have to sleep in their brand new shiny S-Class because they truly couldn't afford it in the first place. I guess it will take a JDP or CR report of some type for reality to be more understandable.

    pablo_l,

    You do realize that Lexus cars never, ever have any type of problems and to suggest such is ridiculous.

    gscoupe,

    I'm not sure where or who you got that from, about price being the ONLY factor, I stated that it is one of many, probably a leading one, not the only one. I see no one here suggesting that it is.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    In an in-depth news story in yesterday's NY Times Jergen Schremp stated the reasons for the merger/acquisition (let the courts decide what it was) with Chrys;er. He pretty much said the MB business model was not sustainable long-term. The cost to deploy new technologies, and the quickening pace of new model development for both established lines and new lines were too costly for MB to maintain its profit margins because it sold only 800,000-1,000,000 cars a year. Thus he needed to spread these costs across many millions of cars the way the larger mass producers do. He mentioned the entrance of Toyota, Honda and Nissan into the space as cause for concern. Interestingly he didn't mention BMW (at least not that I saw - it was a long story and I didn't read all of it) and talked about Audi as if they were only about to enter the luxury space. Translation - more and more cross sharing of platforms and parts and luxury equipment is a must. I've always said it was pure business common sense to understand this deal. The success of the Japanese transcended the lux cars across the whole spectrum and resulted in a lower unit production cost for luxury vehicles that has forever changed the luxury landscape. It's not a cast system anymore. The brands need to spread costs amongst non-luxury models to maintain profits and higher margins. This is not me talking but the CEO of Mercedes stating why the Chrysler deal was a necessity.

    I do think BMW has to make a move soon. It seems logical that they do something with GM but GM also has a deep relationshio with Toyota. We'll see.

    Hey - we've been at this another year. I enjoy it despite our difference of opinions. Have a great (and safe) holiday.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Well, MBA logic in hand, unless you show a path to double digit growth you shouldn't be in business. Germany on the other hand is full of semi-private companies that don't grow all that much and yet still manage to be international benchmarks. BMW has grown through its spurts and stumbles, and will continue to do so as long as the Quandt family hold the majority. Porsche is another example of a company that doesn't necessarily have to produce millions of cars to be a player (albeit even they can't afford to be merely a sports-coupe play to be "viable").

    I think being a slave to growth is a disease. Some companies cna be managed to be extremely healthy without much growth.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The feeling I got reading this story was that it wasn't a deal done for growth. It was about maintaining current margins long-term and about survival. Clearly he sees Cadillac and GM coming back and Ford has revitalized Jaguar. Nissan is on an upswing and Honda has gotten stronger. Toyota is super-strong and probably one he fears greatly. He is playing a master game of chess and you don't win or stay competitive if you play too conservative. The man said his profit margins were not sustainable without this merger. That is saying alot.

    But having my own business with two other partners - which I am spending more and more time with - I know exactly what you mean. I don't have to make our financials public and we have a well positioned business with a great niche and excellent profits. If they decline 5-10% I don't have to explain it to anyone and we are still very healthy. But Im also playing under the radar screen of the big guys in our industry. I don't think BMW is anymore whereas Porsche and others still are.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well I don't doubt that Mercedes needed to spread costs out over a broader base, after all Mercedes has been at the forefront of new technology and innovation since, well since forever, so I agree with that. Toyota and GM are the ones that should be feared, they have the biggest pockets, though GM is still years behind in overall luxury car execution compared to Toyota. I guess I'm not as worried about GM because while they are selling a lot of cars and trucks they still have to use a pile of incentives to do so, Toyota doesn't. Cadillac's comeback will have run it's course in a 2-3 more years, and then what will be the question.

    My problem Daimler-Benz is that they picked one of the weakest companies around to merge with or takeover (let the court decide which). Daimler-Benz was in great shape before 1998. I still want to believe they could have made it with Smart and maybe one other brand to spread costs out over, not needing the entire Chrysler group of troubled brands. I just don't see this merger working. It's going to kill Mercedes-Benz the day they attempt to sell a co-engineered platform under a Mercedes-Benz product.

    Now BMW and Porsche are the just about the last two remaining "independent" smaller car companies on earth, along with Honda. I'm wondering how BMW stays in such great shape yet their "business model" is very similar to Mercedes'. Porsche saved themselves for a while longer with the Cayenne. I don't see BMW ever doing anything with GM, it will surely be the passing of BMW if that ever happens. GM is about the most clueless company around when it comes to managing their foreign brands. They're already using Chevys and Subarus for future Saab products. Better to let BMW die before something like that happens, and Saab too for that matter. Yes I believe in protecting brand uniqueness just that strongly. I see Porsche being bought up by DCX, but under the control of their across-the-street neighbor, Mercedes-Benz, now that would be some union. I want Chrysler to be spun off before its too late. Something tells me that this will happen if the next big round of new Chrysler doesn't change things. Mercedes-Benz can't continue to support all of DCX.

    Audi's model is so similar to the Japanese one so they're probably in the best postion. The have all of VW, which sells millions of cars, to spread costs around. Not to mention Skoda, Bentley, Seat, and Lamborghini.

    Jaguar will never be a threat to MB or BMW overall because Jaguar was never designed to be a volume brand, and Ford surely isn't going to spend the money to do that. Plus I seriously doubt people will ever buy Jaguars on the scale they do MB and BMWs, their style is not for everyone. Though they are gorgeous cars to me.

    "Hey - we've been at this another year. I enjoy it despite our difference of opinions. Have a great (and safe) holiday. "

    I know! Isn't it wonderful!!! You buy that SL500 and I promise I'll take a look at the next IS300 when it comes out....lol. As always I enjoy every minute of our conversations on this board, it's been about 4 years now, I think. Happy Holidays to you also.

    M
  • jamiem4jamiem4 Member Posts: 23
    Help! Before we go and buy this car (today), the dealer is quoting "invoice" of 90K for the following S500 (new): Sport package,parktronic, keyless go, rear-side blinds, wood trims, navigation, e-trunk closer, tire-pressure monitoring! Does that sound right to any of you experts? The color is Black opal/stone interior -it's a beautiful looking car (& my husband will not buy a Lexus...)but the cost, for a 2003, still seems high to me. Any suggestions greatly appreciated!! Jamie
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Try going to the blue New Cars tab at the top of the page and following the links to get Edmunds TMV and other info.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    If the car is for you...You need to let your husband know who is boss (like my wife does)

    You can get a fully loaded 04 Lexus LS430 with all that S500 equipment and More for $70,000 a $20,000 savings (would buy a nice diamond)

    You'll have more Luxury, the quietest car on the planet, A tremendous sound system, self closing doors as well as trunk, a much better Nav. system
    and lots of other goodies.

    Not only that but you will get the most dependable car made, a car you can count on.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    michael_mattox, she's not asking about a Lexus.

    Can anyone help her with her specific question?

    Jamie, you might also post in our dedicated Mercedes-Benz S-Class discussion. Someone who might miss your message here may see it there.

    Good luck!
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