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High End Luxury Cars



  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    A pet cat is agile and quick, but a tiger is something much more.

    While your point about the IS350 is understood, as it really is a pretty good handler for a Lexus, and it is "tossable with 4 doors" . . . a darn good achievement, IMO . . . but, as I see it, it is NOTHING like the Mercedes CLS AMG in terms of top-of-the-scale capabilities.

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The 996 911 and previous Boxster had pretty terrible interiors.

    So true!
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    That was a nice video of the IS350 being tossed around some. But not quite the level of the CLS... Looked like the latter had a far more stable ride, and flat cornering agility than the IS350. Could an LS do that ? I highly doubt that....

    And if that rumor of a VDIM-kill switch goes into the '07 IS, that would be outstanding. Any ideas if they'd toss in a 6-MT as well ?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Oh definitely. The IS350 is now fully competitive with the C350 and 330i, but to compete with the CLS AMG, Lexus would have to take the V-10 from the LF-A, cram it into the GS's engine bay, rip out the E-steering, and completely re-engineer the suspension. Seems unlikely.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The video does show though that the IS actually has some moves when its not being choked to death by E-nannies. If it was worked over by a tuner like AMG or Motorsport, I think its cornering abilities could be greatly improved.

    A six-speed MT IS350 will probably happen for '07. That would be a very good way to try and steal some of the new G's thunder, especially if it doesnt launch with a MT option, as was the case for the initial '03 launch.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    The 996 911 and previous Boxster had pretty terrible interiors.

    So true!

    Alright Lexusguy and Tagman, the two of you are really hitting home and stepping on my toes now. You’re talking about one of my cars here. I’m allowed to criticize others’ cars but you can’t criticize mine. Those are the rules. ;-)

    Anyway, the stock materials in the 996/986 interiors were the pits. However, the design is superior to the current models IMO. The shapes and lines in the former were far more sophisticated in my opinion and the opinion of many others.

    Regardless, I could really care less about Porsche interiors and most Porsche enthusiasts feel the same way. The interiors from the 993 backward looked like military Jeeps. When you drive a Porsche, the only thing that matters is the drivetrain, steering, suspension and sound of the engine and exhaust. And those who don’t know this might not make it through their lease without luxury withdrawal.

    Actually, today’s Porsches are way more luxurious than they used to be. 911s at one time were basically a couple of roller coaster seats on top of a go-kart wrapped in sheet metal (beautifully sculpted sheet metal I might add). I don’t think you got AC that actually worked correctly until the 996—that's 1999 for heaven's sake!

    Plus, if you hate rattles, kiss the idea of any P cab goodbye. They should call them diamondbacks, not cabriolets. They make it out of the showroom for a couple of thousand miles OK, but it just gets worse and worse after that. Even the coupes rattle. You will always get Porsche owners who say, oh no, mine doesn’t rattle but either they aren’t listening or they’re in denial. Any cars with suspensions like that are going to wind up rattling.

    Some perspective... Enzo Ferrari once said, you pay for my engine, the rest of the car is free. Which brings me back to a point I made a while back, that is, the level of sport is the luxury in these cars.

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    designman - you already know that years ago I've had a Ferrari, a previous generation Carrera, and the original (I was number one on the list) '97 Boxster up until last year when I finally sold it.

    When I placed the response "so true", I was going to add "but who really cares, anyway! It's all about the driving!"

    You have let me know that I should have added that! ;)

    In spite of the lacking interiors in the Porsches, they were and are still awesome vehicles in their own right.

    Your point is well taken and has full merit and almost my total agreement. I say almost because we have to admit that there is nothing wrong with the idea of a great interior in a performance car.

    It's just not the primary focus!

    Anyway, you are right. No doubt about it.


  • rayngrayng Posts: 70
    As a 996 owner, I didn't buy my car for the interior. I bought my car to blow the doors off many [non-permissible content removed]/euro luxury sedans in my neighborhood.

    Sports cars are not luxury cars. The luxury items (soft suspension, supple seats, sound deadening, high profile tires, etc...) in a car cancel out the very qualities that make a sports car like a 996, what it is and should be: a street legal race car.

    A bigger point here is the assumption that you can have the best of both worlds: a sports car that is also a luxury car. The fact is you can't have both. But you can buy a 997 AND an s550 or ls600.

    Designman, p cabs are generally squeek and rattle free. But the hot babes that ride in the passenger seat do make a lot of noise.
  • rayngrayng Posts: 70
    Alas the vastly improved interior in the 997 has also come at the considerable expense of considerable price. I also dislike the minature buttons in the central console. While many elements in the 997 is indeed a huge improvement over the 996, I love the simple layout and large buttons of my 996. While I'm not purist, I do think there must be a better way to add luxury elements and features without compromising ergonomics and sportiness.
  • moxiemoxie Posts: 33
    they were a quantum leap in design and material quality from the 993 model interiors which had remained virtually "un-evolved" and identical for three decades! IMO there is nothing wrong with the 996/86 interior but Porsche again raised the bar with the 997/87 interior and has obviously decided to put more emphasis on interior design of their sports cars than ever before.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Glad everyone enjoyed it! Of course the CLS is my favorite Mercedes of the moment. The CLS has a look to it that other Benzes wish they had when they're all huddling in the dealers lots at night! Yeah the 7G-Tronic isn't up to dealing with anything over 490lb-ft of torque. The upcoming CLS63 and E63 have "only" 465lb-ft of torque, but the hp has gone from 469 to 503. Should be a different kinda fast compared to the torque monster cars.

    I see Edmunds has driven the CLK63 and ML63. The new AMG engine is a masterpiece. Now watch for the SL63, CL63 and S63 with 571hp and 620lb-ft of torque! Look for Detroit 2007 as the coming out party for the S63 AMG and the twin-turbo version of the new 6.2L V8.

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    The new Boxsters and 911s are showing up really good with regard to reliability. There are very few complaints so far. In fact I am quite amazed at how few. I would imagine they worked on the squeaks and rattles but I believe they will not disappear. It starts with one, you bring it in and they treat it with Rubber Care and lube the latches, then it’s back again with another, and yet another. Pretty soon, if you are vigilant enough your whole car is coated with Rubber Care. Catch a Porsche after 20K miles without Rubber Care, they sound like a bag of popcorn coming to fruition in the microwave. Maybe if it was used as a cruiser on pristine roads… maybe.

    Lovely lady in the pic on your link.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Moxie… I was very clear to make a distinction between the 996/986 interior DESIGN and the materials. There was a quantum leap in design IMO but not the opinion of everyone. Heck, there are still some who think the 356 was the ultimate Porsche.

    The 996/986 interior design is great, the materials on the base cars are not unless you get the full leather. Even then things like the stalks, vents and cupholders are cheap. And the sound systems… woah boy, are they ever cheap… worse radio I ever had in any car and it appears it didn’t get any better with the new babys.

    I don’t care though. Whatever they do to keep the weight down is fine with me. Porsches are creeping up with weight and I am not interested in luxury Porsches. Like one reviewer said after the 986 Boxster S racked up another first in a comparo… you can feel the money in the steering and suspension hardware. They are also noisy enough (sorry for the irreverent term, it’s actually engine music) to not need any spectacular sound system. But if anyone is feeling particularly generous to the Porsche cause, by all means get the Bose and have the sound garbled even more.

    Perhaps the Porsche owners who read this forum are gonna come out of the woodwork. Sorry, I tell it like I see it, even with my own cars, ESPECIALLY with my own cars.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Tagman, gotcha. There has been plenty of criticism, PLENTY about the 996/986 interiors. I was just putting my thoughts on the table. The standard response to the new interiors are that they are the best yet. On one hand I buy it if one is into luxury, but it does have its opponents like everything else. I think there can be no doubt that Porsche will sell more cars by adding luxury, but there are enough laments because of it. Nothing new, this has been going on since the demise of the 356. Ferdinand designed the 356 and Ferry designed the 911. Heresy, some thought, the 911 is not a Porsche! Imagine that.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Tagman, gotcha. There has been plenty of criticism, PLENTY about the 996/986 interiors. I was just putting my thoughts on the table.

    And good thoughts, IMO. For the most part, we're on the same page. :)

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Some of these recent posts, including even mine, carry the suggestion that there is an unmixable nature to luxury and performance. But is that really true?

    For example, Porsches are great handlers and therefore we are supposed to be willing to excuse the interiors, since the company's focus has been primarily on the engine and suspension, and delivering us a terrific driving experience.

    By the same token, are we suggesting that we should excuse a reasonable lack of performance by Lexus, just as an example, because the focus is on luxury and reliability?

    I guess it all leaves me with these two questions:

    1.) Should we really be so forgiving if there is a lack of luxury in a performance car . . . or conversely a lack of performance in a luxury car?

    2.) If we would really prefer BOTH, then which cars are the best at simultaneously delivering BOTH performance and luxury?

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    has to be one of the biggest rip-offs in high-fi history.
    I really don't care about a car's audio system because I hardly use it, but just knowing a manufacturer would stoop so low to include a Bose system in its vehicle, would be a deal-breaker for me. There are simply too many better choices out there than to settle for Bose.
    Nice to see BMW is starting to use Carver speakers.

    Go Elliot! (one of my 2 original picks still in the running).
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    I think that to have luxury a car has to have a certain amount of weight, and for performance less weight...It would seem to me that the interior materials and fit and finish could and should be held to a high level on both types of cars...Tony
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I had nothing but problems with both of my Bose-equipped cars ('97 Caddy STS and '94 Infiniti Q45). The speaker clarity pretty much sucked in comparison to the then harmon/kardon and Nakimichi(spl?) systems offered by BMW and Lexus of the day. The Caddy required total audio replacement after only 44k miles, of course in warranty, but that's still awfully quick.

    In comparison, my B&O 18 speaker system in my W-12 is unbelievable. It sounds as if you're in a stadium. I still haven't cranked it past half the volume scale, in fear of going deaf and busting out all of my windows at once.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The BMW Z4's audio system has just been THX certified-a very high standard.
    Carver speakers-10 of them in a 2 seater, no less!
    Hopefully, this trend will continue throughout the entire BMW line.
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