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High End Luxury Cars

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  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    "I will never buy a car with an automatic clutch."

    Drive a DSG-equipped Audi and you'd quickly change your mind. They're actually more fun to drive than some hi-po flat-out 6spd. manual cars.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    "I am confident that the new BMW will beat the RS4 and at the same time the Bimmer will be offered at a price that does not border on the side of RS4 ridicilousness."

    I'm sure that BMW will not make the mistake of new M3 not being able to hold it's own against the '07 RS4.

    But that's where the buck stops as the '08 RS4 will put the heat on even more with a 4.2L bi-Turbo 480hp engine and near 50/50 weight distribution(never mind the fact that the much heavier RS4 already outhandles the last M3).

    I'll hold you to those statements my friend. Also expect a sizeable increase over the $55k M3 price tag, more along the lines of 65-70, right along with the RS4 in '08.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Just back from Vermont for the New Year. Hopefully everyone had a joyous and wonderful New Year.

    I had the fantastic experience of borrowing my neighbor's XKR over the holiday again.

    I must admit, on condition with a scheduled drive to test a SL550, the XKR may very well be the next convertible.

    The more I drive the car, the more I really want it. The improved feel of this car is so apparent over it's predecessor that it completely removes you away from that model, who can trace it's roots some 3 decades.

    Everything about the car screams attention, whether it's the interior, exterior, or overall design execution, this car deserves all of the attention it gets.

    While not exactly the fastest(an SL65 will slaughter it), it is in the upper ranks regarding handling, especially equipped with Jag's super sticky 20" rubber.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    What the hell is wrong with these buyers? Have they never read CR or JD Power before? Dont they know that Lexus is number one in reliability? I just dont understand it?

    LOL... Dewey, for me it gets down to this...

    There are cars for riding in and there are cars for driving in. Both have their merits, IMO.

    I suppose if I was currently looking for a smooth sedan to primarily ride in, the LS would be a decent choice if it weren't for its boring style. That leaves MB S550, Jag XJ Vanden Plas, and Audi A8. If I was looking for a sedan to drive in, however, the BMW's, the Q, the MB AMG's and S600, and the Audi S8 would then be among my choices.

    TagMan
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    read the lap times at button willow where the Audi was 2 tenths of a second faster over the much more powerful Benz.

    My point in the figure eight was to show that it beat the M5.

    If a car is out performed, and out powered, it shouldn't be showing up two seconds ahead of the competition.

    Spin how you want, maybe the Bush administration would like to see your resume. Bottom line, the track at button willow shows in my mind who is the better performer. And all that weight on the front end, and down on power?

    Please save the lane change tests results for a Lexus vs Caddy comparo.

    If the Benz was really that agile, don't you think along with the huge power advantage, it would kill the Audi?

    The track is the final solution my friend. Anything else is like taste testing fine chocolate with livestock for judges.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Drive a DSG-equipped Audi and you'd quickly change your mind.

    Fair enough but if it can replace a smooth automatic then it would be worth it to me. It certainly won't replace a manual.

    They're actually more fun to drive than some hi-po flat-out 6spd. manual cars.

    Impossible in my book. Nothing can replace that third pedal which makes the human being a physical part of the drive train. Motors didn't replace the sail for the connection to the elements and no form of automatic transmission will replace a sports car or sport sedan with manual, regardless of how fast they can shift.

    Hey, does anyone around here sail?
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    have you not forgotten something in that comparison of yours above?

    No, not at all. I already addressed resale value after 100k miles when I called that a toss up against two sets of tires, two sets of brakes, 60k and 90k services, and the plethra of service and maitenace items between 50k and 100k miles. My estimate is about 10-15% of the car's MSRP for all these items. You must be the best used car salesman in the world. 35% MSRP after 100k miles? What kind of sucker pay that kind money for an old car?

    Nope that is no assumption. That is based on my actual experience of 8 year BMW ownership.

    You were just lucky. There are people who experience major problem from the get-go. That's why there's a thing called expectation value. No one should expect the expectation value of 8yr old car having major problem to be zero-probability event, regardless what brand. The cost of major repair is fully covered for the 27-mo leaser.

    3. Glad you found out about gap insurance. In any case, owning the full boat is equivalent to leasing without gap insurance: when accident happen and the regular insurance pays less than you paid for the car, you are the gap insurance underwriter :-) Regular insurance is not obliged to put you in a new car even if you own the totalled one. In a lease without gap insurance, you may be obliged to continue paying, but that's only because you have paid less up to that point to begin with. So lack of gap insurance should not be a deterrent to lease

    4. Very high mileage can certainly reduce the benefit of a lease. Very high mileage also kills the resale value of a car. If your old car had 200k miles, nobody would buy it either. Still, the buyer of your car got mugged :-) 35% of MSRP after 8years and about 100k miles?? Where can I find suckers like that? ;-)

    5. No, after blowing the wad 100% MSRP, you do not get to get another car for 8+ years without making more funds available. By contrast, someone leasing can use 18% of MSRP for a new car every 27 months. Do the math, at that rate, the same funds can keep the leaser going, one new car after another, for more than 10 years! Sure, your 335i is better than 328i for now, but in his 2nd or 3rd through the 5th car, the leaser will have better car than yours. Let's not forget, the MSRP on 335i is also higher than MSRP on 328i.

    Brightness what on earth do you know about Warren Buffett?

    You were the one who brought him in here, not me. I have no idea who Abdul Al Beffett is.

    As I said I think you are mixing up life style choices with financial choices. Who the hell buys luxury car for shrwed money management reasons anyways? I buy my cars strictly for pleasure.

    You were the one who claimed leasing was a poor financial choice. I'm only interested in finding out the real cost of getting one of those cars. Lease deals are obviously the dealer maker on some brands.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Yup, sure enough, more than one way to skin a cat. That $12k can be handed over to the consumer in the form of outright price discount, or lower interest rate, or lease residual subsidy. It all comes down to the more or less same $12k discount.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Really? That extra length behind the driver's seat, like S600, helps driving? At least Dewey is consistent. 335i is for driving, probably outhandling the 7, Q, AMG, S600 and S8 put together. The only trait 7, Q, AMG, S600 and S8 have in common is costing a lot of money :-)
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    Yeah, that and being worlds more entertaining to drive than a Lexus could ever hope to be ;)
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    I really doubt any of the HELC cars is better handling than any of the mid-size offerings from the same HELC-making companies. Put it this way: let's assume 750 is the best handling among the HELC's, and A6 (FWD platform and all) being the most pathetic among all midsize offerings from HELC makers. It's highly doubtful even 750is outhandles the lowly A6. Physics do matter.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Really? That extra length behind the driver's seat, like S600, helps driving? At least Dewey is consistent. 335i is for driving, probably outhandling the 7, Q, AMG, S600 and S8 put together. The only trait 7, Q, AMG, S600 and S8 have in common is costing a lot of money

    And that they are HELM(C)s... Guess I should apologize for only talking 'bout the High-End cars on this forum. What the heck was I smokin', eh?

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I regretfully have to inform you that you lost our MB E vs. BMW 5 2006 sales bet. Oh and by the way how did that brochure taste after that other MB S Cabrio bet of ours ? At least I am glad you are still alive

    I like how you put that. I beat you to it though, I already capitulated in the LPS thread. You don't win the other bet, at least not yet. For a brochure to be printed that means the car is in the production in a showroom for sale. Not yet!

    What the hell is wrong with these buyers? Have they never read CR or JD Power before? Dont they know that Lexus is number one in reliability? I just dont understand it?

    Ha!

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I am confident that the new BMW M3 will beat the RS4 and at the same time the Bimmer will be offered at a price that does not border on the side of RS4 ridiculousness.

    I wouldn't be so sure about that. BMW's performance car track record lately has been very hit-and-miss, while Audi is knocking them out of the park. The TT can go toe-to-toe with the Z4, and the RS4 has gotten loads of ("best Audi ever") reviews. And these are cars that still have the old Audi front heavy handicap. A properly balanced, UHP Audi should give the M guys nightmares.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Nothing wrong with a S600, S8 and XKR sharing a garage. Your garage will look like a mini-U.N.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Nothing wrong with a S600, S8 and XKR sharing a garage. Your garage will look like a mini-U.N.

    Plus, there's something to be said for the XKR's exclusivity. I see SLs all the time, but I have the only XK in town.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I see SLs all the time, but I have the only XK in town.

    That is the price of success.

    M
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    enough of this nonesense.

    I heard Acura is releasing a new NSX concept in Detroit. Pictues please, and thoughts if you would be so kind.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,897
    And, as a good part of it was nonsense, posts have been removed. Carry on.

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  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    HELC cars are for "riding" in. It's oxymoronic to "drive" a HELC car for its track performance.
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    I could not have said any better. Nicely said!
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    HELC cars are for "riding" in. It's oxymoronic to "drive" a HELC car for its track performance.

    Well... since you are the (oxy)moronic expert around here ;) ... let me just say that I never went so far as to include "track" performance in my post... but just the same I will make it clear to you that, in my humble opionion, it is not unreasonable or unrealistic for a buyer, or anyone for that matter, to consider performance when comparing the different HELCs.

    There are distinct performance differences between the cars in this segment. The Maserati as contrasted with the LS, for example, or the upcoming Porsche Panamera bring the reality of performance considerations to the HELC arena. Sure, it is quite obvious that the importance of the "ride" is of high significance in this segment, but to largely dismiss performance is absurd, IMHO.

    I still believe that some of the cars in this segment are better for their "ride" than others in this segment, and some offer a better "drive" than others in this segment. I stand by that and you will have a very difficult time to change my mind. I would venture to guess that probably all or most others in this forum would agree with me on this one.

    TagMan
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    ...and yet this not even the new RS6 yet set to debut next year. Now that will be interesting.
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    When you first started to post---particularly about Lexus raising the price---I thought you to be wrong....Now that Lexus has taken your advice, I still think you both to be wrong BUT I have grown to really respect your knowledge about buying or leasing a car....I hope you will , along with hpowders, help me when I get a chance to get the next one.....Tony
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Anytime I can be of help to you Tony, just let me know.

    I am quite sure you are enjoying your wonderful A8, as well you should.

    I have been possibly thinking of a diesel vehicle as my next one as I continue to read amazing reviews of the Mercedes Bluetec system as well as the BMW diesel system too; but some quick searching, to my dismay, shows my nearest ultra low-sulfur diesel fuel station at about 20 miles away. I also notice that some distributors are charging about 20 cents more for diesel fuel than premium gas, so this offsets some of the amazing mileage gains. Unless the diesel fuel situation improves within the next 14 months or so in my area, diesel will be a no go for me.
    I am watching the situation attentively. :surprise:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    To lease a HELC or to not lease a HELC, that is the question?

    So your argument based on a BMW lease deal is that a person who leases ends up paying only about 8 percent MSRP annually (18 percent /27 month lease term) with no worries of repairs and additional expenses.

    And that poor buyer who keeps his car until it is an old clunker will end up paying as much money or in fact even more money (maintenance, repairs, depreciation) than what the lucky lessee pays for driving spanking new cars ( leased every two years or so).

    Sounds great, sounds wonderful! In fact you are stirring a great amount of lease excitement among forum members here. I mean in all honesty who would not be excited about leasing based on your description above?

    Unfortunately when something sounds too good to be true than it is too good to be …well I guess you know what I am going to say next.

    First of all your view is based on two assumptions which I disagree with:

    1) If you want to do a buy-lease comparison and compare apples with apples than you should use 26% of MSRP versus 18 % MSRP for 27 months. Why? Because if a car is offered at 92 %capitalization than a purchaser should be able to negotiate a discount of at least 8 % if not more.

    2) You assume that during 8 years of ownership resale value will equal post-warranty repair/maintenance costs. That is a very big assumption indeed especially with the 35% reale value of MSRP that I realized with my 8 year old BMW Also I may add the maintenance was quite low for my old BMW. But you raise a good point that not all owners will realize such a high resale value and be confronted with minimal repair/maintenance costs. But I find it a bit of a stretch when you assume that resale will equal all maintenance costs. That is quite a negative assumption and will make the lease look unfairly more compelling than a purchase scenario.

    Having said that let me point out why I think lessees with new cars and no repair worries and no extra expenses is not financially better off than a car purchaser who keeps his car for many years. In fact a lessee is far worse off.

    . Based on those BMW figures (Syswei’s Dec. 19th post in this forum) a lessee is paying approximately 12 % annually (( 26 %/27months) X 12 months) of MSRP a year . The brunt of that cost is depreciation. Lease a new car and the annual cost remains at a hefty12 percent. Keep a purchased car for many years and the depreciation declines every year as a percentage of MSRP.. In five years the car buyer will be faced with only about 5 percent depreciation while the lessee will continue paying 12 percent MSRP. In 10 years a car owner will be faced with about 1 percent depreciation while the lessee continues paying 12% MSRP on his lease.

    In otherwords the poor lessee ends up frittering away his money for the priviledge of leasing while the lucky purchaser’s ownership costs decline.

    Oh yes of course the lessee does not pay repair costs. BUT based on a US Survey the highest cost of car ownership is depreciation. Maintenance and fuel costs were miniscule when compared to depreciation. And unfortunately it is the lessee and not the buyer (assuming he keeps the car for many years) that is exposed to the hefty cost of depreciation .

    And what if the lessee drive 15000 miles a year (not highly unusual)?. In that case the lessee will end up spending $1000 additional dollars a year. OUCH!!!. At least a car purchaser’s depreciation will decline as he continues adding mileage to his odometer.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "To lease a HELC or to not lease a HELC, that is the question?"

    If depreciation be the food of leasing, deal on; Give me excess of it! :shades:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I'll hold you to those statements my friend.

    I am sure the specs of the new RS4 will be far more impressive than the current RS4. But specs dont mean much when the weight of the new AWD RS4 bogs it down. Edmunds has shown that even a BMW 335i can almost tie the current RS4 in 0 to 60 performance:

    We almost beat the all-powerful 2007 Audi RS4, too. Despite a 120-horsepower advantage and all-wheel-drive launch superiority, it just nicked our 335i's 0-60 and quarter-mile times by a paltry 0.1 second each.

    EDMUNDS INSIDELINE

    If the modest and humble 335i can accomplish the above I can assure a 400HP BMW M3 will make toast out of a 480hp RS4. Price-wise there is no way BMW is going to raise M3 prices so steeply. That would definitely turn-off many potential customers and the marketing wizards at BMW know that.

    So why dont we make a gentleman's bet in order to prevent the risk of either of us having to munch a brochure. ;)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    You don't win the other bet, at least not yet. For a brochure to be printed that means the car is in the production in a showroom for sale. Not yet!

    I just hope it wont be a glossy brochure with very hard edges :P
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    wouldn't be so sure about that. BMW's performance car track record lately has been very hit-and-miss, while Audi is knocking them out of the park.

    BMW's performance car track record has never been perfect and it wont be in the future. But what I do know is that the new M3 will have to be substantially better than the BMW 335i and that is going to make it a benchmark performer.
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