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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I hate to get into this Audi vs. Lexus thing, but some statements stand out:

    The A6 and GS is a wash, since neither has done much damage in the market place, or in comparisons.

    I've been saying this for years about the GS. It has once again fallen down in the segment it was supposed to dominate. The A6, well....there is at least the S6 to crow about.

    The A8 has been getting beaten rather easily by the LS in sales AND comparisons by the LS for MANY years, until this anomaly of a test, run by the once-reliable C&D.

    Sales yes, comparisons, not quite so easily. Motor Trend put the A8L over the LS430 in the past also.

    If you think a VW Rabbit is superior to a Mazda3, please put credence into this test.

    Has nothing to do with anything here, but I guess you're implying that C&D are off their rocker now right? Amazing what a spectacular LS460L comparo loss can do.

    M
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I think all this attention to Audi (somewhat in response to Doc's jabbing) is deserved. Audi is truly in the earliest stages of a large ascention in this U.S. market, as I posted to the Doc. There will be some newer and even better things to come from Audi in the future. We can bank on it. Audi sales will grow significantly for years to come. And deservedly, as their vehicles are quality built. Their interiors are darned near as good as anyone's and better than most. They represent genuine value, IMO... not hype value.

    So all this attention to Audi?... Richly deserved.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Where on earth did you get Mainland China Audi A8 sales stats from? Or is this A8 figure of yours just a pie in the sky guess?

    Ignorance often breeds arrogance. I happen to have a decent working knowledge in this field. What a proof? Here's a link from Audi's own website:

    http://www.audi.ie/audi/ie/en2/about_audi_ag/news/press_releases/Audi_continues_- - to_thrive_in_China.html

    As you can see, in 2005, total Audi A8 import into Mainland China and Hongkong combined was 2108 units.

    Many executives here in North America do not view their company cars as bribes. Instead they view them as being earned.

    The difference is that many of the people receiving the bribe of A8 there are not company executives at factories making Audi's, but government officials or managers of government-owned enterprises who are either in a position of licensing and authorizing factory openings or in a position of buying a fleet of A6's for taxi services. That's called a bribe, regardless which country we are talking about. Granted, Audi is not a pioneer in this field. MB was known for giving S class as bribes to third world countries' officials (including those of China) for buying their buses and trucks with public funds.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    What in the world are you talking about? A3, A4, Yaris and Corolla are not big money makers, but they do boost unit sales volume. The rest of the world do not dislike large cars; they just can't afford big cars. When they can, they will. Worldwide, Audi happens to cater to a market that is far removed from HELC. Even A6, which BTW is the best seller from Audi in China, competes against Toyota Crown and Honda Accord V6 over there. So it's quite ludicrous to hang onto the worldwide sales volume of relatively plebian cars as some kind of bragging right in a HELC forum.

    Here's the crux of the issue: worldwide A8 sales is less than LS sales in the US alone! despite the fact that the majority of A8's sold worldwide are the lowly V6 variants that wouldn't even qualify for HELC. Think about that the next time anyone wants to brag about Audi worldwide sales volume.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Brightness, if your going to say that the majority of A8 sales in Europe are V6 and 50k, it would be a good idea to allow for the exchange rate.

    Roughly $50k US, after exchange rate.

    Who would be stupid enough to try to bribe someone with something that nobody wants? That is the lamest story I've ever heard in my life.

    Ever heard "something is better than nothing"? Even the A8 is better than some old Chinese branded jallopies that the bureacrats otherwise would have to ride.

    Did the insane asylums throw an in house tent sale on gate keys?

    Looks like it. As far as HELC models are concerned, A8 has a long way to go before getting past 7 and S, and then LS sales. In the most recent month, A8 sold an order of magnitude less than LS! What planet are these wankers living on?
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    That's why I said, if we want to stick with HELC, we'd better stick with the US market. If we are to talk about Europe, then S, 7 and A8 may not even qualify for HELC, with their predominant sales in V6 forms at much lower price points.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I've been saying this for years about the GS. It has once again fallen down in the segment it was supposed to dominate.

    I don't really think they were expecting to dominate the segment. Lexus usually doesn't release internal sales targets (smart move, IMO) but all things considered, the GS is doing "OK". Its beating the bloody pulp out of the RL, and holding its own against the M, A6, and STS. The GS400 was always the last place finisher against the A6 4.2, E430, and 540i. This time its managed to climb up to middle of the pack, so it's at least an improvement over last time.

    The GS certainly isn't the worst car Lexus sells *cough* SC430 *cough*
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I was talking more about the hype given here, not Lexus' own sales hopes...but no arguments from me there.

    The RL is a lost cause, IMO.

    Actually the GS400 used to beat all those cars except the 540i in most comparos back then.

    M
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Ignorance often breeds arrogance. I happen to have a decent working knowledge in this field. What a proof? Here's a link from Audi's own website:

    I was inquiring where you got that Audi info? Is that arrogance? You have working knowledge? You just googled this info and you call that working knowledge? Or is your working knowlege restricted to the field of giving A8s as bribes?

    And 75.1 percent growth for Mainland China A8 sales is not impressive? If that is not impressive then I dont know what is? So that must mean bribes are growing at a 75.1 percent rate? :P

    The Audi A8 like most other HELCs are mainly driven by hard working affluent individuals in the private sector. Most HELC drivers consider their cars as earned just like they do in USA. Your proof based on a single observation of a parked and unused Audi owned by a bureaucrat is kind of silly, dont you think?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Sounds good. Thanks! :)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "The Audi A8....mainly driven by hard working affluent individuals in the private sector."

    Yeah. Sure wish someone would bribe me with an A8 :) !
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Or me with a CLS550.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yeah. Now there's a company that I could work for! :)
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    now they are better than nothing, but before they just sat around.

    Why don't you go get your story strait about what you saw on your vacation.......errr nap, and get back to me.

    Don't strippers brag about how much they do in sales every night?

    It's amazing to me how a gussied up Buick can catch so many fish.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Sorry Merc and Howard,

    Nobdody could bribe me with a A8 or a MB CLS550.

    A BMW M5 ,Audi RS6 or MB E AMG? In that case consider my soul sold to the highest bidder. :shades:
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    has a video of one of those cars that nobody wants [that's not a sucker] testing in Las Vegas.

    The sound is unholy, heaven.

    Only young of heart need to watch, and more importantly listen.

    This car can't hold a candle to the Lexus offerings, but, I guess it sounds pretty good.

    I think it's called a crappy R8, or something....Audi R8, that's it. Anyway, go to winding road and watch the video of this abysmal failure of a car company that has nothing going for it.

    Excuse me while I clean myself up. I think the sound caused me to have an accident. :blush:
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    hpowders,
    Since you have shown an interest in the Audi A8 and possibly the incredible S8, here's a little blurb on what to expect from the next generation A8:

    Next Audi A8

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I’m having a hard time parsing this. Seems unbelievable:

    ”A new study has found that German sports car maker Porsche earns an incredible average of $28,000 in profit on every vehicle it sells. The figure — printed in Germany's Welt am Sonntag newspaper, citing a study by B&D Forecast — dwarfs the per-car earnings of virtually any other automaker.

    Comparatively, luxury and sports car maker BMW makes about $3,200 per car. Audi nets a less impressive $1,580, and Chrysler and Volkswagen earn just $900 and $400, respectively.”


    They say Porsche denies it, claiming between $10K-$20K per vehicle, still lofty in comparison to the others cited.

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/category/porsche/
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,028
    This has always been rather common knowledge among people who really know cars. You have to be an even bigger "sucker" to buy a Porsche than an Audi!!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Nothing to do with being a sucker. It has everything to do with Porsche's ability to make some very desirable cars that nobody else makea. BMW and Corvette roadsters cant compete. It will be interesting to see a future review comparing an Audi R8, Acura NSX, Lexus LF-A against certain Porsche models.

    If it wasn't for Porsche's family control there would have been major bidding wars among automakers to takeover Porsche a long time ago.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    that we can debate the cars and car-related topics all we want, but insulting people is not appropriate. Keep it civil, please.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    It has everything to do with Porsche's ability to make some very desirable cars that nobody else can make.

    I know this is true. I'm on my third Porsche.

    BTW, I received a VERY attractive price when I made my purchase. After that, I don't give a rat's --- how much Porsche makes. If they make a good healthy profit, then I know that they can afford to continue building some of the best and coolest cars on the planet.

    Thank you, Porsche!!!... I'm having a blast!

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    A phenomenal review by AutoWeek of the Audi R8 can be found here:

    link title

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Well, looks like we all have our price! :)
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Can we focus on the subject matter and ditch the personal insults? You obviously tried to insult me with your "pie in the sky" accusation, then my number turned out to be very sound. Now from nowhere you are accusing me of relying on Google. I knew the 1800 number without consulting google; if I did rely on google, I would have given you the 2100 number for Mainland and HK combined as that's a number much easier to find on google. Projecting from one's own experience does not always work

    75% growth for specific models in China is not impressive when a car is newly introduced. From a starting base of only a couple hundred cars in 2002-3, A8 can indeed garner high double digit growth for a few years; many other models from other manufacturers did the same thing. High per centage growth is easy when the base is small.

    In a third world country, drivers of HELC are usually chauffers not the owners. Projecting US experience for HELC can be quite erroneous when we are talking about only a few thousand cars sold at this price level in a country of over 1 billion people. The number of HELC cars sold in China per million population is comparable to Ultra Lux like $300k Rolls and Maybach (not even the $170k Bentley) in the US. These cars are not usually bought by "hard working affluent individuals." They are usually purchased for livery/limo service or extremely wealthy individuals in personal fleets, even in the US. Overseas in countries like China, corruption is often the source of extreme wealth and power. In the case of Audi, corruption becomes all the more relevent as A8 is often a tool for bribary in order to sell A6 and A4 to publicly-funded vehicle fleets like department vehicle purchases.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    I certainly believe it. Get this! The local Porsche dealer offered to sell me a Carrera GT for $125,000 OFF MSRP!! That was a few months before production ended. Of course, there was no possible way whatsoever that I could've bought it, but the salesman told me that they were wanting to move it out because it was costing them too much to have it in the showroom. He even told me to refer the offer if I knew anyone interested.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The reviewer at 6'4" had to move the driver's seat FORWARD for comfort! Sounds like my kind of car!

    The headlights have that aggressive "545" look, too!

    In my current busy position of sitting here accruing interest and dividends, I somehow missed this article. ;)
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Actually the GS400 used to beat all those cars except the 540i in most comparos back then.

    Hmm, because the only comparison I can remember of the four, the GS was last. I don't remember if it was MT or C&D, but they didn't like it.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,028
    Why would anyone build a great car like this and then put in "overboosted power steering with no feel and no feedback"?

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

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