Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





High End Luxury Cars

1727728730732733771

Comments

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Even pickup trucks update their STYLE in order to stay fresh.

    Right, even Cadillac and Lincoln have updated their dinos more often over the years.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    BTW, I should compliment you on your recent posts. Very realistic in the middle of an illogical and chaotic hornet's nest.

    Thanks. I trying to stay out of this Lexus vs. Audi scramble, but this about the LX being best in class was too irresistable to debunk.

    M
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,934
    Yes, most have to "refresh" their looks to snare the suckers among us.

    Probably the most successful and longest running car in history was the VW Beetle. They had it down pat from the start so didn't have to change much, just like the LX.

    Not all change is for the better. I am sure those Indians thought they were getting a great deal when they sold Manhattan for a few beads.

    Mercedes used to be pretty good cars back in the 70's and 80's. Now look at them. They are always at or near the bottom in quality these days. Many changes are made to cheapen a product so the mfg. can save money and make more profit. No so with the LX. It's in the big leagues and the rest are bush league wannabes.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yes, most have to "refresh" their looks to snare the suckers among us

    Whoa, does this apply to the folks who buy the re-badged LX470 over the equally competent (except in prestige/status) Toyota Land Cruiser?

    Now you're saying that change (in order to stay at least competitive) is no good because Lexus has been content to let the LX470 be overrun by the compeition? Wow that is some kind of dedication to Lexus!

    M
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    What would anyone want with a true SUV besides comfort,good looks, and reliability?

    What would anyone want with a true car besides comfort, reliability, low maintenance, a classic design and fantastic fuel economy?

    That is exactly why our quarter century old MB300D is not defunct. But my question to you is why the heck would anybody buy a spanking new SUV when it really is an old SUV? Hefty discounts? I certainly hope so!
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,934
    Please don't mention the GL as a competitor to the LX. It is not. With a starting price in the high 40's or low 50's it doesn't even qualify to be mentioned in this forum. I believe we all decided on $60,000. and up as a starting price.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Hilarious, now the GL doesn't qualify, but you tried to compare the LX to the even lower priced ML to make a point about how superior the LX is!! That couldn't have been more disingenuous. Absolutely ridiculous too. If the GL isn't a competitor to the LX then the ML surely isn't.

    Once again, I'll ask you to look up some facts before slaming a Mercedes. The GL starts at 55K and can run up to 70K which puts it in the LX470's and the HELC league. Now if you're going to hide behind a 4K price difference to protect the LX from its true MB competitor fine. Weak defense for the LX, but ok.

    What is your excuse to disqualify the Range Rover beyond its reliability? You surely can't say price.

    M
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    DrFill,

    Reality raised a great point on how the A8 has won many interational awards.

    And what is your argument? Who cares about what happens in foreign lands. Whatever happens beyond USA is irrelevant. That xenophobic person by the name of Lou Dobbs from CNN may agree with you but it does hurt your argument.

    It's quite unfortunate that you have such a view since the LS460 just won the "World Car of the Year Title". This title was awarded by the most distinguished auto journalists in the USA and in foreign lands. Winning a C & D or MT review is small fries compared to "The World Car of the Year Title". Despite the participation of foreign journalists I do think this award is worth something, dont you think? :P
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,934
    Perhaps it is you who should check your facts. Edmunds has the GL starting at $52,000. not $55,000 as you say. So you are again wrong there. The GL might qualify for entry level luxury but not HELC.

    I only mentioned the ML because I drove the ML and the LX back to back and exposed the ML for the cheap pretender that it was. Actually the 3 year old LX and the new ML were priced about the same at that time, but as I said there was really no comparison at all. A Major League HELC LS VS a Bush League Tin Can ML.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    It seems they miscalculated a little. I say “a little” because it is still deemed a financial success even thought the production run fell a little short of their planned 1500 worldwide but more than the 1000 originally planned. I wonder how the owners feel who paid MSRP. I think the CGT will do OK as a collectible though. The one I’m curious about as a collectible is Veyron.

    I've wondered about the collectibility of the Veyron, too. As expensive as it is, I think it's value will go south like senior Ohioans headed to Florida for the winter, deep and fast.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Probably the most successful and longest running car in history was the VW Beetle. They had it down pat from the start so didn't have to change much, just like the LX.

    No way. The Beetle was an iconic design that improved in other ways. The LX is not an icon by any stretch of the imagination.

    TagMan
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "No, not really. Audi is relatively a newcomer in the luxury segment of the auto industry. Is anybody old enough to remember the Audi Fox of the 70s?"

    To rip apart posts is most enjoyable. Audi has always been seen as a upscale manufacturer at least for the past 2+ decades, long before Lexus came along. Remember the Audi 5000? That was around '83 and that was surely a luxury car. Second, Audi has had a foothold in EUROPE for DECADES. Do you seem to forget that?

    "The same thing has been said about Cadillac and Lincolns several decades ago. Lexus products are 21st Century Cadillac products that primarily serves American taste for plush rides. That is the real reason for the lack of interest in Lexus cars beyond North American borders. The Japanese themselves lack interest in Lexuses."

    Hardly comparable. Cadillac was never world class, and GM has always designed cars just for the US market. 450K+ worldwide sales and you call that lack of interest outside the US? Let's see currently Lexus cars are sold in a handful of countries, whereas Audi's are sold in just about every country. When you look at that and the fact that the bulk of Audi's worldwide sales are made up of A3's and A4s which are decidely more downmarket outside of the US and there you got the additional sales of Audi. Quite frankly Audi's 900K vs. Lexus 450K worldwide sales is not at all impressive(maybe to you it is). If Lexus starting pushing a $20K to $25K car with hubcaps like Audi does, they would be selling a few hundred thousand more Lexus' worldwide also. Yeah I know it's hard to get for yourself but it's the reality===Audi's numbers are inflatted by stripper A3's and A4s(a4's here start at 30K, elsewhere Audi A4's start at much less) meanwhile Lexus' cheapest car worldwide is a $30K IS. Common sense pretty much dictates when you price a car at $20K you would capture more sales, as that is a closer pricepoint for more people to afford in developing markets.

    "Nope! Germany never ever imposed trade quotas or hefty tariffs on Japanese cars like USA did in the 1980s. Audi thrived not by nationalism but by competing successfully. Audis are loved by Europeans not because of nationalistic reasons(the French, Russians and Italians do not consider themselves German) but because of the "

    Huh...yup. Did I ever say the gov't's are imposing tarriffs? I said the PEOPLE. Big difference. it's in their blood. Ever read a article from ANY european car mag? The only cars even they like are basically all European! Whereas, American's have no sense of protectionism, they will buy anything that's good.

    "So what? An A3 and an A4 are premium priced cars in their segments and they are premium priced because they are worth it. And Lexus is soon going to introduce an A3 competitor. Will that dillute the image of a Lexus LS or a LF-A? I dont think so!"

    PRemium priced in their segment??? What segment is that?? A A3 starts at around $20K in the US? That means elsewhere it's around a 18K car in USD. The point is, ah duh, you are comparing a whole lot of $20K A3's being sold against NO $20K Lexus' being sold!!! Duh, that's like comparing Camry sales to A4 sales and saying "the Camry outsells the A4 by 400K to 20K units therefore Camry rules". Yeah I know you won't get it. fly by.

    And if you haven't taken business class yet, yes cheaper models dilute brands and more sales dilute brands, just like 300K lexus sales in the US is reaching dilution stage.
    A prestige brand starts loosing prestige as sales increase. Business 101. And a $20K Lexus will definately dilute the Lexus brand even is the US, even if sales do grow.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    That excuse doesn't work. Voice command cannot make up for bad design. If the voice command works so well, why even have center stack controls at all?. The MDX is not on par with the RX in terms of interior quality. That plastic trim is horrid, and as a bonus it'll blind you on a bright day. The RX has one of the best interiors in its class. Not as good as the X5, but better than all the rest. Acura on the other hand has *never* done a good job on any interior. The old ones just copied and pasted Honda switch gear, but at least they were easy to use.

    I get it, the RX isn't known for great handling. Newsflash: RX buyers *dont care*. The RX350 is quick in a straight line, its comfortable, and its easy to use. Thats all its buyers care about.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Oh sir, please tell me where C&D reported that the S8 is no better than the A8?

    Must've been next to the lines where they reported that the LX470 "was the best SUV ever created, so good in fact that it NEVER needs updating".
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    LG, while I'm not a huge fan of the Acura MDX(or any of Honda's new design themes), the RX has never been a big dream of mine either.

    HOWEVER, with that said, the 65% of women that buy these things scoop'em up as fast as Lexus can turn them out, my opinion doesn't mean squat.

    My fav. SUV in this class, as you may know, remains the Cadillac SRX followed closely by the new X5. Sure, the Caddy is technically a tall wagon, but it has all of the right moves, and Caddy has made crucial updates and fixed the sunroof problems, it's biggest demerit.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,934
    No way. The Beetle was an iconic design that improved in other ways. The LX is not an icon by any stretch of the imagination.

    Well if you (and your family) were going to be dropped in the middle of Africa and you could have one SUV, all the gas you would need but no other hope of any repairs or replacement parts and you had to drive for 1500 miles thru the back country, what would you choose?

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "When you look at American consumer's buying habits over the long history, it is no wonder that Lexus is successful. The history of U.S. consumer buying is not a pretty picture. The most persuaded and manipulated group of consumers ever to visit this planet. Lexus is number one here for good reason. "

    Perhaps you should move yourself to a land where people are not as manipulated by marketing as in the US!

    The biggest the crock that has ever been pulled on humankind is the product called Mercedes! How people will flock to it just because of the 3-pointed star. It wasn't long ago when I walked into a Benz dealer and I pointedly asked the dealer why I should buy a MB over a Acura, Lexus, or BMW. His one and ONLY response....."because it's a mercedes". That says it all! See, now that's manipulation! Oh but I guess the average american is just stupid and you must be the only one that is above manipulation by the media! or is it that you're the one being manipulated by intangibles like the false prestige of a 3-pointed star on the end of the hood or trying to cram down everyone's throat that they should be buying a BMW because handling & performance is all that matters? It seems more like the manipulation is being done on you.

    So, oh wise one, tell us what is the long history of the uS people when it comes to consumerism?

    Oh BTW, it is well known american's are basically immune to advertising so where we are more manipulated than other cultures is beyond me. maybe it is the other countries where marketing is manipulating their minds.
    Ramble on.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The MDX is not on par with the RX in terms of interior quality. That plastic trim is horrid, and as a bonus it'll blind you on a bright day. The RX has one of the best interiors in its class. Not as good as the X5, but better than all the rest. Acura on the other hand has *never* done a good job on any interior.

    That statement is too darned extreme, lg.

    Let's just all take an honest look at some of these interiors and decide for ourselves.

    Here's the last of the Acura '06 MDX interior...
    image

    And here's the all new '07 MDX interior...
    image

    This is the '07 RX interior...
    image

    And for reference purposes this is an '07 Honda CR-V interior...
    image

    And also for reference this is an '07 Land Rover Range Rover interior...
    image

    I don't see that RX interior being anything significantly better than either of the '06 or '07 Acura interiors... certainly not the way you describe it... and, if anything, the RX interior looks like it is overflowing with its share of plastic, although not quite as much as the Honda CR-V interior, and it even shares the same interrupted center console design with the Honda CR-V.

    The Land Rover Range Rover interior is in a class by itself, obviously.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    LG, while I'm not a huge fan of the Acura MDX(or any of Honda's new design themes), the RX has never been a big dream of mine either.

    I wouldn't want any of them for myself. The only one I could even consider driving is the FX45. Even then though, I'd be saying to myself "why did I buy this over an M35x?" The X3 also isn't half bad. My wife can have it though, I'll stick to the Jag :)

    Speaking of the Jag, Top Gear just came back on BBC 2, and this week they tested the XKR against the V8 Vantage. It was amazing to see the XKR pulling powerslides and drifts with the rear wheels smoking up a storm, all while keeping the buttoned down composure of a BMW M car. Very different from the XJR falling all over itself and getting spanked by a CLS55 on Fifth Gear. On the race track, the V8 Vantage could not pull away from it. Clarkson loved it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    and, if anything, the RX interior looks like it is overflowing with its share of plastic, although not quite as much as the Honda CR-V interior, and it even shares the same interrupted center console design with the Honda CR-V.

    What isn't plastic on the Acuras? By the way, my wife liked the interrupted center console on her old RX, it gave her a place to put her purse. Lexus knows their target demographic.

    The fact is that the MDX can hit almost $50K, and it has Chrysler quality fake trim in it. Thats inexcusable.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,934
    Oh sir, please tell me where C&D reported that the S8 is no better than the A8?

    Page 69 of the March edition quoting Mark Giles:

    "The S8 felt big and cumbersome on the street. The S6 isn't that much smaller than the S8, yet it felt way more urgent, both in a straight line and around corners. I kept thinking that I'd rather have a regular A8 swaddled in all the luxury Audi offers, which, it turns out, can easily add up to $25,000 worth of goodies".

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    C'mon, lg. That RX interior isn't going to win any beauty contests, either. They're all fairly equivalent as the photos prove, not the tremendous superiority you were suggesting in favor of the RX. And the MDX isn't the horrible interior that you were alleging either.

    Just looking for a little balance here.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Just curious Doc, what non-Lexus vehicles do you think highly of?

    That's a very good question, Tag! ;)

    A lot of my respect comes from quality breeding, or heredity. Mercedes DOES get a lot of respect from me, BUT, BUT, they have been around since forever, have the biggest name in the lux business, charge (by far) the most, so I expect the most from them, sometimes we get it, sometimes we don't. But you can't say they don't put a lot of effort and innovation into their vehicles.

    The Benz' I like are the SL and the GL.

    BMW has earned an incredible market position, and is iconic in it's reputation, but I can't find any car less hospitable to use.

    I was just at the Houston Auto Show Saturday, and sat in the 328i. I got in the passenger side, and I noticed the cupholders, scattered along the dash (why?), and the window control fully blocked by the door handle. I'm not in the car two seconds, and it's already pissing me off!

    The 550i Manual/M5 would be my Lord and Savior, if iDrive wasn't forced upon me. And it had a Lexus interior. IDrive is the World's best deal-breaker. There cars and trucks may drive great, but they need to develop a bedside manner. I'm not a robot, I got feelin's!

    Feelings...... :blush:

    Porsche is great, but they aren't the prettiest belles in the ball. But I dig the new Cayman! :) That's sweet!

    Audi basically was at Planet Zero when Lexus got here, just coming out of the 60 minutes issue, and has been left for dead by Lexus since. So I have no respect for Audi. Their surveys aren't exactly 1st-tier either. VW has crap quality scores, so I can't expect much better from Audi.

    Jaguars at least look expensive.

    Caddy/Acura/Lincoln/Infiniti are 3rd-class at this point.

    It's not that I pine away for a Lexus, I'm not really a luxury car kinda guy. But they have a way about them, the force is strong with this one.

    I saw it back in 1989, and I still see that today. The power, the mission, the execution. I said it when they started, "This company is goin' places!"

    They haven't taken the gloves off yet. So I back them to the hilt. the deserve my complete respect and admiration. Toyota hasdone a wonderful job. there really is nothing else to say about Lexus.

    Unless you work for Audi. :confuse:

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The Benz' I like are the SL and the GL.

    Glad to hear that... I like them, too, Doc.

    Regarding the Bimmers, I was under the impression that iDrive has been revised and is quite improved now. No?

    And, the 3-series... you were pissed off in two seconds? Gosh, I've been thinking about that upcoming 335i convertible. Should I be concerned?

    Jaguars at least look expensive.

    They're a bargain if you ask me. Reliability has improved, something you care a lot about. And simply... gorgeous cars, especially the new XK. I think lexusguy and blkhemi will have no regrets over the long haul in their Jag XK's.

    Porsche is great, but they aren't the prettiest belles in the ball. But I dig the new Cayman! That's sweet!

    I agree. Porsche is great. And perhaps not the prettiest, but still great-looking in their own right... looks that will last and not fade away. The Cayman does have some nice new design touches. You are right about that.

    Well, all-in-all, interesting post. I am glad that I asked you and I appreciate the time you took to answer. I really do think you are too hard on Audi... at least too hard on Audi in this day and age. They deserve more respect than you give them, IMO. I would say that about VW as well. I'm not saying there aren't legitimate concerns, but I think you have thrown out the baby with the bath water.

    Lexus deserves credit for what they have done. I agree with that, but I think I witness a tendency to overlook their weaknesses too much... sometimes you give the impression that they are above faults of their own, and that they are somehow vastly superior to anything else out there. In terms of reliability, perhaps, but even those statistics are getting tighter all the time. So, how else are they superior?

    TagMan

    BTW, thanks again, Doc.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I think you need to see an 07 MDX in person. In pictures, faux wood looks like wood. In person, it looks like the plastic that it really is.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    No thanks needed, Tag. ;)

    As the great Sgt. Hartman once said "I am hard, but I am fair."

    Audi is what Audi is. You mentioned winning international awards and all. Lexus has done this many times over, here and abroad.

    Winning surveys is nice, winning awards is nice, winning comparisons is nice. Lexus has done all of these.

    But it's where the rubber meets the road that counts! It is all about the Benjamins.

    Audi has been here long enough, had more than their fair share of chances to do what Lexus has done, in a decade or so, and they have failed.

    Maybe they're putting the resources/energy into covering many different sales regions. Maybe this produces a rosier international portfolio, and superior corporate balance sheet. That's fine.

    But if you want to work HERE, close! Coffee is for closers only! ;)

    Lexus is superior in sales, service, luxury, quality AND CUSTOMER KNOWLEDGE. That's more than enough. BUT their weaknesses are fairly obvious, but they are attacking them with due dilligence.

    Styling and driving excitement have been called into question, and Lexus has done a solid job, at least with the styling. The IS, GX and LS are quite stylish, TME.

    The GS needs a new identity, and the next SC will have a sharper edge, hopefully. But I still like it, even for a GT.

    The IS needs a stick in 350 and IS-F form. There is no excuse for this. I'd go so far as to say it would be Best in Class with a manual, like it's predecessor. C&D said as much, back when I trusted their opinion.

    DrFill
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Well that, IMO, was your most interesting post to date. You’re human after all. Now, doesn’t it feel good to bare your real soul instead of acting like a parrot?

    “There really is nothing else to say about Lexus.”

    Chirp
    Lexus is #1
    Chirp
    Lexus is #1
    Chirp
    Lexus is #1
    Chirp
    Lexus is #1

    ;-)
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "Acura on the other hand has *never* done a good job on any interior."

    That statement is as bad as saying that Lexus has never built a luxury vehicle. I realize that there is a certain level of subjectivity involved when judging interior layout and design but this statement is way off IMHO.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "Lexus is superior in sales, service, luxury, quality AND CUSTOMER KNOWLEDGE."

    Chirp
    Lexus is #1
    Chirp
    Lexus is #1
    Chirp
    Lexus is #1
    Chirp
    Lexus is #1

    ;-)
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    Yeah, I agree. Thanks for the pics. I think folks can make up their own minds.
Sign In or Register to comment.