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High End Luxury Cars

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  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    As long as you misuse the word "decent", my response is accurate and warranted.

    The words "decent", or "nice" or "fair" never came up in the review. The LS460L is not a "decent" car. :confuse:

    You're better than that, Tag.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Doc,

    Why the semantics? According to the dictionary decent means respectable, fair, and other positive things as well. There is nothing wrong with the word I chose.

    If it makes you feel better, I have no problem whatsoever with acknowledging that the review was a "nice" one, because for the most part it was.

    I think most reviews, when taken collectively, have been "nice" about the LS. It is a fine car. I have my personal criticisms about it, and throughout the many reviews we have heard other's criticisms... some similar and some different.

    As I have always said, the concensus is what I go by when paying attention to reviews, because they are all unique in certain ways, but ultimately a clearer picture comes through about the car, and that's what counts, IMO. Beyond the reviews, my own opinion is what counts most to me, of course, but we are talking about a concensus from the many reviews here, and my opinion has nothing to do with that.

    Based upon reviews so far, the LS is clearly at this point a quiet, luxurious, quick, and comfortable cruiser that isolates the driver from the road, as opposed to connecting the driver to the road. This last item is not necessarily bad, just not my preference. Some of the car sounds great, while some not so great, such as brakes, of course.

    But, please don't get upset with my choice of words, for goodness sakes, when I am really being fair. You know I will not get out the trumpets for an LS, but I will give it any objective credit it deserves when it becomes quite certain that it is due.

    And, I expect you to be fair also, Doc.

    I hope that is good enough for you, cause it's the best you're gonna get. ;)

    TagMan
  • A report form the Houston auto show

    LF-A. A looker as reported by Merc. Jury still out on if it will in fact have sporting aspirations. But if looks are any indication


    IS-F. is not, my God what is that thing they attached to the front, a jaws of life to better remove the driver in case of boredom? Probably fast, but see above.

    Camaro. is very sharp.

    XKR. Wow, like week in the knees, wow.

    TT. very sleek, and modern with a great interior. Why people look at the SC over this is beyond me. Oh, that's right the SC is a juggernaut that nobody knows about. Silly me.

    Aura. Quite a job they did on this one. Very surprised.

    S80. Same thing, one of the best new designs re. four door sedans. I don't know about the dynamics but, if it's un- Volvo like it could be a contender.

    Audi. In general, everything from Audi sucked because simply put, they aren't a major player here so they don't matter.
    ROFLMFAO
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    So, where is the "doom" for Mercedes that we heard some speak of?

    Well to be fair most that used to preach about that don't post anymore, but to answer your question...it has never, ever appeared. It was all hype and nonsense to begin with.

    I've said from day one that Mercedes (and other European brands) have a reliability problem, but as the sales numbers continue to prove, not everyone worships reliablity surveys.

    For Mercedes, Land Rover, VW and at one time BMW and Audi too, to be able to continue to sell cars and actually increase sales says one of two things; 1) either their reliability isn't as bad as the survey worshipers would have you to believe, or 2) the stars of the reliability surveys aren't all that to begin with.

    If Toyota for a minute lost their reliability crown they'd be finished. Lexus not as much so, but it is still one of their primary building blocks.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Amazing that you got that from that article. At no point did they even come close to saying that the LS460L was bad anything. They're still harping about long stopping distances and what not, that I did see.

    The review was lukewarm at best.

    Must be tough to have to hang your hat on an Edmunds review when C&D put the car in the doghouse.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Faster than the S550 and 750i.

    In one test, yet Edmunds numbers are different from just about every other magazine in the country. Really convincing.

    Everything else you've mentioned has been said before, this Edmunds review didn't say anything that we hadn't heard before. You're down to listing "Might get better braking with Touring Pkg" as something to be boast about. Desperate. Might smite.

    Again, why can't the car produce a decent stopping distance?

    It is just too funny that you've now become and Edmunds groupie while throwing away Car and Driver. Classic case of picking and choosing, being selective, etc. etc. of who's reviews to use. The old LS didn't have that problem did it?

    M
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    No matter how many tests the LS won in C&d, you wouldn't give the LS any respect because of price, and it looked like this, and it handled like that. No matter what it did, it was never enough.

    Now the site you use daily has no credibility, and now C&D is the gospel? Or just when things go your way, for once?

    You are reduced to hanging your hat on stopping distances to ridicule the LS, as this site can't find any other weaknesses. And they clearly stated you can improve stopping distances with a performance pkg.

    Good to see you use this site everyday, but don't respect it's views or reviews. Very revealing. :blush:

    This site seems to have no problem putting the LS on par with the S or 7 based on merit, not price. That it's a better value is a given.

    Deal with it. ;)

    Count me a one of the millions who respect Edmunds judgement. Sorry to hear you have no respect for Edmunds.com.

    DrFill
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    No matter how many tests the LS won in C&d, you wouldn't give the LS any respect because of price, and it looked like this, and it handled like that. No matter what it did, it was never enough.

    Well you have to look at why that was Doc. You and others kept harping about how it was the bestselling this and the bestselling that, yet you never, ever took into consideration that the car didn't sell for S-Class prices. Period. Yeah it handled like a barge, true. Nope it wasn't enough because the LS430 never matched the hype given about it here. Oh and yes it looked awful from every angle except from the side.

    Now the site you use daily has no credibility, and now C&D is the gospel? Or just when things go your way, for once?

    I love how you turn things around. Did I say that? You missed the point, yet again. You've for years said that C&D was the last word on the LS' dominance and never cared one way or the other about Edmunds (or MT or RT either for that matter), but since your beloved C&D dropped the LS460L like a hot rock you're reduced to seeking out new sources for your LS superiority rants. That was the point. It didn't have anything to do with whether or not Edmunds was right or not. You're the one that proclaimed C&D to be gospel for years and then when they didn't put your LS first or even second to the S550 you dropped them like a hot rock and now you're trying to say that I'm saying C&D is gospel. My god that is rich. It was your gospel for years doc!!!!!

    Nor do I use Edmunds reviews everyday, Car Space yes, but unless there is something of interest in the road test section I don't even look at it that often.

    Secondly about Edmunds it is very well known that their 0-60 times lag everyone else. Everyone else who has tested the S550 gets better than 5.9 sec for a 0-60 time. Yet everyone who has tested the LWB LS so far complained about long stopping distances!

    You are reduced to hanging your hat on stopping distances to ridicule the LS, as this site can't find any other weaknesses. And they clearly stated you can improve stopping distances with a performance pkg.

    I asked you a specific question as to why the LS can't produce a better stopping distance you come back with a grand excuse about one having to buy an optional package! That is awful doc!! I can only imagine what would be said if I told you that one had to buy an optional package to get an at least in-class braking distance on a Benz. Edmunds couldn't find any other weaknesses? You must have missed the other common complaint about "Grabby brake feel", another thing that has been nearly universal about the car. Also, this "though we didn't care for some of its squishy vinyl trim" didn't sound too good either. There shouldn't be any vinyl in such a car. You won't find any in a S-Class or A8.

    Good to see you use this site everyday, but don't respect it's views or reviews. Very revealing.

    Yeah it is isn't it? Are you done pandering? In case you didn't know it, liking Edmunds reviews isn't required to use Car Space. Not that I have anything against their reviews, they're usually ok. You can quit trying to win points with the hosts, they don't write the reviews.

    Uh...the editors are a seperate group of folks so good luck in your brownie point search.

    This site seems to have no problem putting the LS on par with the S or 7 based on merit, not price. That it's a better value is a given.

    Glad you found at least once source that does. Funny how when "this site" said that SWB LS460 wasn't on par with those same rivals you panned the review. I gotta tell you it must be awfully hard work having to sift through and remember which reviews to pan and which ones to use in a boast because the reviews for the LS are all over the place. The SWB car didn't stack up per Edmunds and yet you seem to think that their latest review says that the LS460L is somehow some type of revelation, when most of the same exact gripes are in place from the SWB car.

    Count me a one of the millions who respect Edmunds judgement. Sorry to hear you have no respect for Edmunds.com.

    Sound like a press release. Now because I questioned a 0-60 time I have no respect for Edmunds? Ridiculous reaching doc. The sorry part is that your former star can at best get lukewarm reviews from automotive publications and only glowing ones from non-automotive sources like Cnet.

    Say what you want Doc, but there is no escaping the fact that your LS didn't, hasn't and won't make the type of impact you went on and on about last year. Feel free to spin all you like, but there is no escaping that fact.

    You've had to do a huge flip-flop just to keep your LS rhetoric above water because your usual sorces have abandoned you! I can see it now, the New York Times says that the LS460L is the best car in the world. Yep that will clinch it for me!

    No one is saying the LS is a bad car, but the days of the LS dominating the reviews are over, long gone. We can debate the finer details of the two cars forever, but the new LS isn't even close to having the edge or in some cases even equalling the new S550 like the LS did. Deal with it.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Merc, I need an answer from you on this one, sir. Help me come to terms with it.

    I guess I can't help you with this one. ;) I don't have nearly as much of a problem with it as you do. My problem with the CL is that it doesn't look hot enough without the AMG kit. There shoudln't be that dramatic of a difference between the regular car and one with the AMG kit. I have no problems with the interior.

    M
  • Now if the leases are hugely factory subsidized ( you didn't give us any proof) putting customers in leases isn't an unalloyed blessing but it is a good step to getting them back in the door in 24 months.

    The irony is that, traditionally an MB is supposed to be with the owner forever. Using incentives to get a customer back in 24 months is more suitable for un-established brands such as Hyundai. And now it's reversed. Or is it that MB positions itself as an underdog (at least in USA)?
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,904
    Merc, whether right or wrong, you seem to feel an obligation to try and counter almost any criticism that is raised against Mercedes, so I will direct this puzzling question to you.

    The majority of the people who post here also seem to be staunch Mercedes defenders, yet invariably, when it comes time to pull the trigger and put their money where their mouth is, they buy some other brand.

    Why is that? And why do you seem to be about the only Mercedes guy here who actually owns one? If I am overlooking someone please forgive me.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    In sales, price, quality, features, looks, and acceleration.

    Say what you want Doc, but there is no escaping the fact that your LS didn't, hasn't and won't make the type of impact you went on and on about last year. Feel free to spin all you like, but there is no escaping that fact.

    Oh, I beg to differ. Where did the S-Class commercials come from? I thought the S was so incredible it didn't need to advertise?

    Think Mercedes noticed that the buzz is gone, just like that? I wonder what happened? Think it bothers them that the Lexus parking itself is THE BUZZ?

    And of all things, they are selling the looks of the thing? Oh baby! :P

    No need to spin anything. A very impressive review by Edmunds.com. No one here called it a nice car, they were impressed. With it's handling, poise, and power.

    Over 3000 sales, compared to 2000 for the S-Class (a 50% drop in sales for the S might be considered an impact, since the S WAS consistently over 3k last year).

    I don't fault anyone for not talking to you about this, because your credibility is long gone. The Lexus LS is more than a match for the S550. I've driven them, spent time with both, and I agree with Edmunds accessment, who eagerly reference the S550 whenever the talk about the LS.

    BTW, MT also found the LS faster. Not an isolated incident.

    When you have the cards, you don't need to bluff. ;)

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Either MT or R&T, I forgot which, did a first drive of the Maserati QP with the new autobox. It apparently has the same rev matching ZF six-speed auto as the Jaguar XK, easily one of the best automatics on the market. They were very impressed. The only difference is the automatic has a 49\51 weight distribution vs. 47\53 for the SMG. They will still offer it with the DuoSelect sequential manual, but I have no idea why anyone would order it that way. They also mentioned that things like bad panel gaps and vibrations\rattles that plagued earlier QPs have been eliminated. Very tempting...

    image
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Since Merc has a Mercedes, what are you asking HIM for? Your question seems to be directed at everyone BUT him. Owning a certain vehicle is not a prerequisite to comment and/or criticize. If this was the case, we'd have no reviewers for the rags. You don't own a Mercedes either. Should this preclude you from commenting?
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    It's not that nice is an insult, just a backhanded compliment that doesn't fit. Don't be afriad of the big words! :)

    I like Edmunds' choice of words:

    Luscious

    Rich

    Extraordinary

    Drives like a smaller car.


    DrFill
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Doc, remember what I said about the parrot? ;-)
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Merc, whether right or wrong, you seem to feel an obligation to try and counter almost any criticism that is raised against Mercedes, so I will direct this puzzling question to you.

    Likewise it seems that you feel the need to always down Mercedes at every turn. Whether it be the Maybach airbag issue, the GL or anything else...Mercedes always stinks according to you.

    The majority of the people who post here also seem to be staunch Mercedes defenders, yet invariably, when it comes time to pull the trigger and put their money where their mouth is, they buy some other brand.

    Yeah I used to hear this all the time. That I didn't have an opinion or couldn't possibly have any knowledge about a Mercedes because I didn't own one. Now I see on the LS board you referred to me as being an Mercedes owner, but the Mercedes I own isn't a HELC. Anyway, you'll have to ask the ones that defend Mercedes, but don't own one as this doesn't apply to me anymore. Been waiting a long time to say that!

    One thing that I've noticed though is that the majority of the Mercedes detractors have never, ever owned one either. Most of which don't post here anymore, but always swore up and down that they knew so much about Mercedes due to their friends, family etc. yet when you read their knocks against Mercedes you could tell they really didn't have a clue beyond what Consumer Reports or JD Powers told them. I noticed that some Lexus owners who used to own Mercedes are a little more open minded and/or fair on the whole issue. Just my observation in the 7+ years I've posted here.

    Why is that? And why do you seem to be about the only Mercedes guy here who actually owns one? If I am overlooking someone please forgive me.

    Well a lot of folks have left the board and/or don't post here anymore.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Oh, I beg to differ. Where did the S-Class commercials come from? I thought the S was so incredible it didn't need to advertise?

    I love it! You change the subject when you're licked! We were talking about the LS getting a series of lukewarm reviews and now you're talking about Mercedes S-Class advertising.

    Think Mercedes noticed that the buzz is gone, just like that? I wonder what happened? Think it bothers them that the Lexus parking itself is THE BUZZ?

    Who knows, who cares...why don't you write them and ask them. Seriously doc you're just grasping as straws here now.

    Over 3000 sales, compared to 2000 for the S-Class (a 50% drop in sales for the S might be considered an impact, since the S WAS consistently over 3k last year).

    Apparently you're just plucking numbers out of thin air because the S-Class did not drop 50 percent in Jan 2007 compared to Jan 2006. When are you going to actually read a sales report before posting? The S-Class sold 923 units in Jan of last year which was the old S-Class not the new one since the new didn't go on sale until Feb. The S sold 2078 units in Jan of 2007 that is a 125 percent increase.

    I don't fault anyone for not talking to you about this, because your credibility is long gone.

    This from someone who just tried to feed us this nonsense about the S-Class' sales dropping 50 percent vs last year! Talk about credibility!

    Just like your Lexus GS' sales dropped in the second year the S-Class will do the same, it is a normal trend. Those initial months of 3000 plus units won't ever be reached again, nor is it supposed to be. I know you'll not pretend that you don't know this and that the S is somehow doing a flop in the market place.

    The Lexus LS is more than a match for the S550. I've driven them, spent time with both, and I agree with Edmunds accessment, who eagerly reference the S550 whenever the talk about the LS.

    Yeah right, keep repeating that and maybe you'll actually get someone to believe it. It is clear to me that you're in denial at this point. In previous years the LS proved its place was secure review after review, now it has been reduced to lukewarm reviews here and there and a stunning loss at its previously #1 magazine. Yet you still act as though nothing as changed. Clear denial.

    BTW, MT also found the LS faster. Not an isolated incident.

    Really doc? Their "First Drive" of the LS460 in the Oct 2006 issue listed a "MFR EST" time of 5.4 secs, not an actual test result. BTW the the LS has never, even been able to get this number when actually tested. Anyway, then in the January issue in the COTY testing they got a 5.7 0-60 time for the LS460 SWB model compared to 5.6 secs for the S550. So you're just flat wrong again, now what was that about credibility doc? Either you're mistaken or you're trying to pull the Lexus vinyl over our eyes! Oh I get it you're talking about the 1/4 mile times I'm sure? That is where the SWB LS is faster than the LWB by default S550 per MT's testing.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Thank you! Like I'm supposed to know why others that defend Mercedes didn't buy one. Most here who pondered buying on already stated what their reasons were anyway. Blkhemi and Tagman have talked about why they did or didn't buy an MB for months now!

    I guess now that since I don't own a S550 I'm not eligible to comment. Boy is this you don't own one you can't comment/angle as tired as ever.

    M
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    You can talk about any vehicle you want to talk about whether you own it or not.

    What would be very much appreciated from you and others is that we back away from the personal confrontations that have been happening here.

    Most times it's better to let an annoying statement pass rather than fly off at the person who made it.
  • Is Doc a credible source after his SC review?

    LG, I saw the Top Gear review of the XKR VS Vantage V8. I was very impressed with how balanced it looked while being driven hard. It was the best looking coupe at the auto show period.

    It's amazing how one can read a review and come away with a different take than someone else.

    BTW, the A8 still gives me goose bumps when I slip behind the wheel. [the wheel of the one at the show that is :blush: ]
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    As the host has pointed out, and we have all known all along, there is no way we could all own all the cars we talk about in this high end forum... well maybe blkhemi could. ;)

    I have indeed owned a few Mercedes vehicles, and I can assure you that an extra visit or two to the shop was all that I ever experienced beyond normal maintenance. The Mercedes were terrific. So far, the wife's Jaguar XJ Vanden Plas has had zero problems. I admit I am a bit surprised at that. I guess things are much better for Jag.
    The Porsche is too new to know yet, but if it's like my last ones, it will need some repairs... so I purchased the extended warranty!... potential problem solved!

    Some of us clearly show more bias here than others (no names needed), but there are no rules against bias... although I think it is a limiting factor. Preferences are a little better, perhaps they allow us to keep an open mind.

    But call it whatever you want, I sure do love the Eurocars, there is no question in my mind about that.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    It's true. I don't like the Lexus LS. I guess it would be fair to explain this. As I said in one of my previous posts, the Lexus LS is great at isolating the driver from the road and surroundings... instead of connecting the driver to the road. This is a big difference, IMO. I definately prefer to be connected to the road and not disconnected from it.

    Beyond that, I just don't seem to have any affection for the style. Even though it's better than the previous model, overall, I still don't think it is exciting or dramatic in any way. It never makes my pulse increase.

    I honestly think the only use and desire I would have for one would be an LS460L, and to sit in that back right side seat with the foot rest and massage, and turn up the Mark Levinson system and relax. But who would drive? And why do that in a car when I would rather do that in my home? It's a poor excuse to buy a car, anyway.

    So... truth is what it is. Sorry to you Lexus fans. I just can't help myself to lust over those gorgeous and more fun-to-drive Eurocars that actually connect to the road! :D

    TagMan
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Here's the thing I don't get - are you and everyone else who have negative (or even positive!) things to say about any vehicle speaking from personal experience with said vehicle?

    It keeps looking to me like many/most/all (?) of you make up your minds from what you read and not what you experience.

    If that's what you want to do for yourself, more power to you; it's no skin off my nose or anyone else's. I just know that I'd have to experience something for myself before I make a judgment about any specific attribute. How it actually feels to me is way more important that how it feels to someone who happens to be writing about it.

    (But I will say that I would never, ever have any interest in the self parallel park dealy and I don't have to experience it to know that. :P )
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Why is Audi, MB and BMW seeking to produce hybrid and diesel versions of single models? Seems somewhat redundant, doesn't it?

    Well here's the reason:

    Should the EU take the dramatic step of banning cars that emit more than 200 g/km of carbon dioxide -- a category that includes 1,440 models in Europe, of which
    German carmakers make 612 -- it would slash profits by 30 percent at VW and by up to 40 percent at Audi, BMW and Mercedes, he said.


    OUCH! .

    Hybrids would be the best way for MB, BMW and Audi to achieve such strict emission standards. Blutec or no Blutec, hybrids are the best way of achieving lowest emission ratings.

    So who here would buy a hybrid BMW that is bogged down by a heavy battery and hybrid system? I certainly wouldn't!

    Ominous serious clouds lay ahead for all Euro performance car manufacturers with these new regulations.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Thanks dewey for your above clarification that you can make judgements about cars as a whole without ever setting butt in them, which was my point - that makes no sense to me.

    Figuring that the self-parking option is not appealing is nowhere near the same thing. It's as if I said I might be interested in the car, but I know that I don't want a moonroof - doesn't have a daggoned thing to do with the car itself.

    Edit: Dewey deleted the post I was replying to. :sick:
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Here's the thing I don't get - are you and everyone else who have negative (or even positive!) things to say about any vehicle speaking from personal experience with said vehicle?

    Whenever possible!

    For example, I have not driven the Bentley Continental GT, but I spent time at the dealership looking at it and sitting in it. I probably could have driven it, but I had no intentions of purchasing it. But I have opinions about the interior layout and style, which I have posted.

    I have examined the LS430 and driven it numerous times. When the new LS460 came out, I spent more time at the car show looking at the Lexus vehicles than I would have ever imagined. Why? I wanted to make sure I gave those vehicles every opportunity to impress me. And, there are certainly great things about them. They are well crafted, and comfortable, regardless of style. Actually, I liked the IS350 best of all of them, but that is not a high end car, and I think the Lexus SUV's are nice, but need to be updated.

    Regarding high end vehicles, I have owned Mercedes, Porsche, Jaguar, and Ferrari. (I don't know if the Lotus counts.) I have driven or inspected most of the other high end vehicles, and I have owned a lot of non high-end vehicles that I do not discuss here, such as a Mini-Cooper S, and a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, VW Beetle, Hondas, Corvette, and many others that have no relevance here.

    I have not owned an Audi, for example, but I learn as much as possible, and I have checked them out at the dealership and always at the car show. Their interiors are striking... very well executed and the workmanship is terrific. I know this first-hand by seeing and touching, not just by reading it.

    I have friends with many of the high end cars. I get exposure in that way as well. My community is overflowing with these high end cars... they are everywhere, so that provides yet another way for me to learn...
    by asking my friends about their experiences.

    I look forward to continuing to check out more of these vehicles as time goes by. I anxiously am awaiting the arrival of the BMW 3-series convertible with that incredible new 300 hp twin-turbo engine, but that is also not a high end vehicle, so I don't talk much about it here, although I have mentioned it.

    I think some of us have had more exposure than others, but everyone is entitled to an opinion. I have been fortunate to have had a lot of first-hand exposure, and I make an effort to check these cars out and experience them as much as possible.

    As you know, I also post on other forums, on ocassion, for example, the Jaguar XJ forum and the Porsche 911 forum.

    An interesting example here is merc, who knows as much about Mercedes vehicles as anyone I've ever encountered in real life or on any forum... and for years he has contributed his knowledge and opinions without actually owning a Mercedes, until recently when he purchased his CLK. Now there's a guy who deserves a Mercedes if there ever was one!

    And, I think you know as well as I that some of the posters talk with little knowledge and experience, and others talk with an abundance of knowledge and experience. Beyond that, some are more biased than others. Ideally, everyone could have the ownership experiences of all the high end cars, but that isn't really possible, so being well-informed, and checking out the cars first-hand is the next best thing, IMO.

    Does that answer your question? :)

    TagMan
  • LS 460 SWB is on my radar, but I don't like that the steering & suspension upgrades are only available on the L. I don't need huge dimensions in the back, & the extra length would make it a snug fit for my garage. The SWB price point & Lexus rep make it attractive to me, but I get the feeling they are treating the SWB like a step child to the L.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Pardon me Pat,

    my keyboard typing is very slow. You responded to my deleted post faster than I was able to press the delete button. :sick:

    Personally I dont like any big car and I've driven many to know that bigger is not better at least in my particular case. It doesn't matter if it is a Lexus, BMW, Audi or a MB. Size and weight kills performance and handling in any car and I even find my wife's 5 series touring far too big to my liking.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I get the feeling they are treating the SWB like a step child to the L.

    The short wheelbase LS is the only last remaining "value" any more in the LS lineup. Anyone considering buying an LS that is looking for value, the short wheelbase would be the way to go. IF, however, value was not a consideration, then the long wheelbase would be the way to go due to the availability of options that are exclusive to that model.

    In order for Lexus to retain the "value" card, they have indeed treated the SWB like a step child to the LWB. you are correct.

    TagMan
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