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High End Luxury Cars

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  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Posts: 1,150
    ljflx, I think that this ad is for the Spyder. It was part of the same ad in Friday's NYT Weekend edition.

    Please note that Edmunds says that a 911 will return 50% of its MSRP in FIVE years with fully 15K miles per year. So, a HELM customer could throw down 80K to buy a 911 and get back 40K after five years vs. throwing down 112K on a Maser and getting back 50K after four years. Remember guys, its not what you paid for it that counts, it is the difference between what you paid for it and what you can sell it for that matters.

    Does anyone want to speculate on the 2007 S Class pricing? From what I see, sales have taken off. (I do get a kick out of all these ex-student radicals who just 35 years ago were marching in the streets and are now pulling up to valet parking in S Classes.) With a MSRP of 87K what would be a realistic price? From what their web site says, the Premium II package isn't yet available and, to me, the Premium III package seems aimed at the AARP crowd. Rather than the Premium III package, you could join a very nice gymn, maybe even the New York Athletic Club, if you have trouble with your turning your neck, checking mirrors, and/or need a massage for that kind of money.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,780
    Fine. Then just substitute A8 or 7 series for S class. Lexus is putting relentless pressure on all helms to justify their inflated prices. Call it value vs prestige if you want to but I call it real value vs smoke and mirrors.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Tag

    Lexus doesn't have an image problem.


    Doc, I'm sure hoping that you actually read my post, because I NEVER said that Lexus's problems were with its image. I spent a good deal of time writing that post to indicate the OPPOSITE of that. I thought I was quite clear when I said that the Lexus image was in fact so STRONG, that it was stronger than the product line itself. And I supported that opinion with what I believe to be concrete reasons. Read it again. I stick with my opinion, which I believe was quite fair and balanced. You are most certainly entitled to yours, and I have no issue about respecting it, but please don't mis-quote me by a whopping 180 degrees.

    Or . . . by some miracle were you actually AGREEING with me that Lexus doesn't have an image problem, and that its strength causes a descrepancy or disparity between that strong image and the overall product lineup itself?

    Which is it, Doc . . . Are you mis-quoting me or agreeing with me?

    :)

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I think the current ES formula is working just fine. There's simply no way to make a car like that with that level of equipment at that price on a unique platform without a massive, totally unnecessary price increase. The ES is so good at what it does that it killed the I35, and frightened the TL away forever. Today, no import dares compete with it. Why would you they want to rock the boat with a cashcow like the ES?

    Toyota is most likely waiting until the new Tundra and Sequoia are ready, and will then kill off the LX (and probably the TLC as well) and replace it with something based on the Sequoia. This will allow them to cut the price and better compete with the Q7 and GL.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Infiniti is a successful flagship away from being on the same level as Lexus.

    Now, Infiniti will never match Lexus in sales, because they will not sell a lux version of the Altima (a la ES/Camry) or a lux version of the Murano (a la RX/Highlander). But in the segment that it's in (other than the flagship segment of course), it matches up pretty well against Lexus.

    The G competes well against the IS, and the M competes well against the GS.

    The QX is an embarrassment though. Same interior as the Armada, and quality problems.

    So... after 16 years of failure, what do you think will convince people to buy an Infiniti flagship?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    It is very interesting how all these brands go through their ups and downs when it comes to new product intros.

    I remember when Lexus stated that they wanted that constant product buzz that the Germans, specifically BMW and Mercedes-Benz seem to automaticall get because they're seemingly always introducing something new.

    Right now it is Mercedes-Benz. Edmunds has covered at least 3 AMG Benzes in just that many weeks. First the CLK63, then the E63 and now the CLS63. Then you have the GL450 making the rounds in print reviews as will those new AMG models over the next few months. Then you have the CL which should be shown sometime this summer I'm guessing. It seems like pics of the CL, next C-Class and smaller version of the ML (GLK) are constantly plastered everyone. They're on a break-neck product offensive now.

    Someone earlier noted that Lexus' SUVs need some attention, but when I think about their car doings over the last 12 months its staggering. A new GS, IS and now ES and the big whopper, the LS in a few more months. Not the same level of press buzz overall as Mercedes due to the timing of the intros, but still. The LS460 range alone will carry the brand until they can revamp the SUV lineup. Then you the GS twins get some juice this fall also. Out of all of Lexus' upcoming products I want to see the production version of the LF-A and rumored IS Coupe and whatever the hi-po version of the IS the most. One of these just has to be good looking!

    BMW has a new 3-Series coupe coming this fall, the 335i that will be within 30 or so hp of the outging M3! Progress folks. Other than that it seems that BMW will be quiet for a little while, unless that new X5 is going to show up sometime before year's end. The M3 and M6 Cabrio are coming too, you just know it. The 335i sedan is going to be a direct answer to the IS350 and upcoming G35 with its 300hp rating.

    Then you have Audi - pretty much on a product roll right now. The Q7 I think will do some serious numbers for them, but their other additions this year are of the image, not high-volume sales variety - RS4, S6 and S8. Lots of speculation going around now about their CLS fighter and mini-ute the Q5. Its the R8 that I'm waiting to see. I really think people would love Audi if they made more shopping lists. The problem isn't undesirable cars.

    I can't wait to see the production version of that sleek Infiniti Coupe that made the auto show rounds this year. The sedan hardly looks changed, but it is yet another attempt at 3-Series level greatness. Not sure what is next for the M35/45 twins. It appears that Nissan will be getting the next generation performance coupe, not Infiniti. Not sure if that was a wise decision. What else is in rumored for Infiniti??

    I truly believe that somewhere is the deepest, darkest most secretive development labs in Honda's Japanese headquarters they're working a RWD platform for the next TL/RL. Remember where you heard it first!!!

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Out of some 100,500 cars that MB sold in April, only 8,500 were S-class.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Infiniti is a successful flagship away from being on the same level as Lexus.

    I'm not sure about that. Infiniti still isn't a full lineup provider on the level of Lexus. They don't have a convertible and it appears that they aren't getting the GTR either. Infiniti' SUV lineup also pales next to Lexus' though I'd take a FX over a RX anyday. The QX like you stated has hit the skids in several areas while the Lexus LX (though outdated) is pretty much an icon compared to the QX.

    With the 07' LS Lexus has built up too great of a lead over Infiniti in that area for Infiniti to catch up now. I'm starting to see some hairline cracks in the whole Nissan/Infiniti comeback. Lexus is also set to introduce that LF-A sports car while Nissan dealers get the car that Infiniti should be getting as their respose, the GTR.

    I still think Infiniti are more desireable than Lexuses in nearly every class, but as far as clout/status/prestige etc they have a good ways to go before matching Lexus IMO.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    IMHO, G and M does better than "compete well against" IS and GS. However, ES and RX are what makes Lexus such as success. That's where the money comes from to bankroll everything else, just like 3 series for BMW. Infiniti has not quite mastered the art of leveraging its plebian product into something "desirable" at significantly high price point, perhaps due to lack of execution in details.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Competition is fierce out there. Hardly any model can maintain MSRP after 6 months on the market nowadays. MB and BMW are often resorting to lease subsidy to attain effective price parity with Lexus. Not sure if that is a sustainable proposition given their higher cost. Consequently, we may see more "tuner" type updates (what used to be done by a couple guys in a garage after beers, namely, dump a bigger block in the engine bay, crank up the turbo boost, etc.) instead of more completely new platforms, which would actually take much more engineering resources.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    It appears that Nissan will be getting the next generation performance coupe, not Infiniti. Not sure if that was a wise decision. What else is in rumored for Infiniti??

    I truly believe that somewhere is the deepest, darkest most secretive development labs in Honda's Japanese headquarters they're working a RWD platform for the next TL/RL. Remember where you heard it first!!!


    Infiniti doesn't have a whole heckuva lot going on right now. The FX just received its mid-cycle refresh (very minor, really just a much needed interior upgrade). The M35\45 and QX56 will most likely continue without any changes for awhile. Now that they dont have the GT-R, its all down to the G35. New sedan, followed by coupe, and possibly a convertible maybe after a year or two. I dont think there will be a new Q45 before 2008.

    There's a chance that the next RL could be RWD, as clearly the current car is a flop. The TL I'm not so sure about. I think an SH-AWD option is a definite possibility, but I dont think it will get RWD. In any case, we wont be seeing a brand new TL or RL before 2010 or 2011.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I'm starting to see some hairline cracks in the whole Nissan/Infiniti comeback. Lexus is also set to introduce that LF-A sports car while Nissan dealers get the car that Infiniti should be getting as their respose, the GTR.


    Very interesting observation, I think you could be right about trouble brewing for sustained Nissan\Infiniti growth. One thing is for sure, the decimation of Nissan NA because of Ghosn's "grand idea" of moving HQ from CA to TN certainly won't do anything to help them.

    The GT-R is not really a competitor to the LF-A, or Acura's next NSX. It's using production based parts, and is going to cost half as much. If Toyota ever actually makes the Supra and charges $60-70K for it, calling the GT-R a Nissan could be a good move.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    In any case, we wont be seeing a brand new TL or RL before 2010 or 2011.

    That seems like a long time doesn't it? I can't see the RL going that long in its current form, but I think we'll see a new TL for the 2009 model year.

    I really think Infiniti should have been the brand to see the GTR under here in the U.S. I mean Nissan already has a sports car, the 350Z. Then again this car has its own amount of prestige for those in the know so keeping it a "Nissan" is keeping it "true" I guess.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The GT-R is not really a competitor to the LF-A, or Acura's next NSX. It's using production based parts, and is going to cost half as much. If Toyota ever actually makes the Supra and charges $60-70K for it, calling the GT-R a Nissan could be a good move.

    You're right, never thought about it that way. With a V10 or V8 the next NSX and Lexus LFA are going to be 100K+ cars easily.

    Now if there was ever a Toyota I would buy it would be a Supra. I would want it priced like the 350Z with better styling and a high-quality interior than the Z, that would be a knockout. They can use the new V6 from the IS350 tuned with a little more power as a base engine. That would be hot. I'm still stunned at how good the new Camry looks on the road in SE trim. For a Camry...my goodness they did a bang up job. The ugly Toyota emblem and its placement is the only thing that messes up the design. It is by far the best looking Camry ever and must give all others in the segment an even bigger headache now that it actually has some looks.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Infiniti has not quite mastered the art of leveraging its plebian product into something "desirable" at significantly high price point, perhaps due to lack of execution in details.

    What plebeian product does Infiniti have left? The G20, I35, and QX4 are all dead. I think the biggest problem with all of those cars is they were transparent rebadges of Nissan products, with essentially zero justifaction for big price increases other than slightly different body work. Infiniti never learned how to do products like the ES and TL, or RX and MDX. The QX56 shows that they still don't understand that you need more than a wood steering wheel to make a "luxury version" of one of your regular products.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    That seems like a long time doesn't it? I can't see the RL going that long in its current form, but I think we'll see a new TL for the 2009 model year.

    It does, but then the last RL ran from '96-'04. Gen 1 and 2 of the Legend both ran for a normal 5 years though. I'm not really sure why Acura chose to just throw the first gen RL in the closet and forget about it.

    So far the "rescue the RL" plan seems to be just cutting a lot of the tech stuff out to try and get the price down by a few grand, which will probably happen when the car is refreshed, probably '08.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Now if there was ever a Toyota I would buy it would be a Supra. I would want it priced like the 350Z with better styling and a high-quality interior than the Z, that would be a knockout.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like they are interested in going after the 350Z, S2000, and RX-8. The rumors say that Supra is going to be a V8 (probably the Lexus 4.6L or 5.0L) powered Vette killer, with a price tag to match. If they do two trim levels again, then I suppose a less expensive V6 version could be possible.

    I agree that the Camry SE is a sharp looking car. Honda has their work cut out to match that.

    It's actually somewhat ironic that the GT-R is going to be a Nissan in the US. In the past, the car was just the hottest version of the Nissan Skyline coupe, which is our G35 coupe.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    If you've been checking your Supra forums, or Toyota websites, you'd know that Toyota has said, point blank, "They have no plans to resurrect the Supra".

    I've read Mr Clemens say in an interview, about 2 years ago now, that management sat down and had to decide which they were going to make, a new Supra, or the FJ Cruiser.

    And we lost.

    Toyota needs another SUV like they need hole in the head.

    They do plan to "resurrect" the 2000GT name in 5000GT form.

    The Supra was what made me a Toyotaphile.

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Well, the FJ Cruiser does make a lot more sense from a business standpoint, with its off the shelf engine and platform. Plus, with the demise of the Celica and MR2 Spyder, Toyota really isnt in the sports car business anymore. Better to leave it to leave it to Nissan, Honda, and Mazda.
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