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High End Luxury Cars

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  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    No wonder that the LS is outselling the S by two to one.

    Really, when did this happen? I must have missed it.

    Gee I wonder if the 20K price difference has anything to do with it?

    Funny, the pics are of the CL, something that Lexus has no answer too, yet you're talking about S-Class sales.

    I guess the upsized Camry interior look is the in thing here.

    M
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Once again, I'm asking you both to agree to disagree and move on. Neither of you is going to change the other's mind. It would be a lot nicer if we could just talk about what we think about the cars rather than what we think about what each other is posting.

    Move on please.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    That LS is a nicely built sedan with terrific workmanship and tremendous comfort and a sound system I'd have killed for in my college days. It may not look or drive or brake the way I like a car to look or drive or brake, but it's one hell of a cruiser, and I want you to know that it does deserve respect, and it has mine.
    And since when is it a crime to build a car that is dependable as all heck?


    Amen, tag.....
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Merc

    The LF-A will be compared to the CL by customers since they will be close to the same price. The LF-A is supposed to be in the $150k area, or less. In spirit, they are not direct competitors, not that Lexus would bother with something like that. It's no great shakes, IMO. Not much to look at. :(

    In style, Mercedes would only have the SLR to compare to it, and it's like 4X the price!

    The S550 and the LS both test at 5.5 to 6.0 seconds 0-60.
    And the LS beat the S in the slalom at MT. And we still haven't seen it tested with the Touring Pkg. yet, which might tip the scales. No AMG tuning necessary!

    Any performance advantage Mercedes has is wishful thinking at this point, and it certainly isn't worth $20k.

    DrFill
  • The extra C is for crash. Was gawking at an S600 easing it's way down the parking lot at a grocery store yesterday. Once it was outta sight, I was getting ready to get in my ride when I heard a nasty thunk. Walked towards it, & the S had a run in w/someone who was backing out of a spot. Closer look showed the other car was an LS460L. Heated debate ensued.

    Hate to think of the price tag for that fender bender.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Merc,

    Is our S550 called an S500 in France? The reason I ask is because this article refers to the S500.

    I saw the blurb yesterday on AutoSpies website, but thought that perhaps they were comparing last year's car. But then I thought that perhaps there is a different badge in France, or that they use a different engine.

    So... what's the story here? Why the S500?

    TagMan
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We're here to talk about cars. We are not here to snipe at each other because we disagree on how we feel about any given vehicle. If you don't agree with someone else's opinion, that's fine! The fact that differing viewpoints exist is exactly why the market offers us so many, many wonderful choices.

    We all have different needs and priorities and those things dictate what vehicles are important to us. None of us are wrong! We just have different viewpoints, that's all, and that fact is NOT something for which we can reasonably fault each other.

    We need to stop attacking each other and just talk about the cars themselves. What we like and don't like about what others are posting is not the point here.

    Some posts have been removed.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    A good shot of the interior details that drive DM crazy:

    Well I have to be true to myself and say that the exterior drives me nuts also. Merc, that butt is struggling, very un-Mercedes-like. I am trying to think of which American car it reminds me of. The Taurus comes to mind, from the lamps to the C-column and the way it mates with the circular rear window. I much prefer the styling of its predecessor, the one you liked so much.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    So... what's the story here? Why the S500?

    In Europe its called the S500. Something to do with the S500 name being "historic". M-B likes to do that, like with the AMG "63".
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Thanks, lg (luckyguy). :)

    TM
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    I hate being the bearer of bad news and unfortunately this is very very bad news.

    MERCEDES BENZ AS WE KNOW IT WILL SOON BE DEAD! CAUSE OF DEATH----KILLED BY DR. ZETSCHE'S MALPRACTICE:

    Read the following blurb from Wall Street Jouranl today and you will know what I am talking about:

    Although some shareholders have called for DaimlerChrysler to sell off its U.S. unit, Mr. Zetsche is preparing a turnaround plan that envisions increased cooperation with Mercedes. That would include the joint development of the basic underpinnings of automobiles, these people said, a step that has been taboo at the company up until now.

    The move represents a significant gamble by Mr. Zetsche, a German engineer who headed the Chrsyler division before taking the dual posts of CEO and head of the Mercedes unit just over a year ago.


    For years Mercedes's German engineers have resisted working with the more down-market Chrysler unit. As Chrysler chief from 2000 until 2005, Mr. Zetsche fostered some collaboration between the two divisions. Cooperation could also yield cost savings and cut product develop times to enable Chrysler to compete with leaner Asian rivals such as Toyota Motor Corp.

    Cooperation could also yield cost savings and cut product develop times to enable Chrysler to compete with leaner Asian rivals such as Toyota Motor Corp.

    WHAT PRESCRIPTION SHOUD DR. ZETSCHE USE TO TREAT AND HEAL HIS PATIENT MERCEDES BENZ?

    Since Chrysler's loss, a number of shareholders have renewed calls for getting rid of Chrysler, questioning how the two sides can share underpinnings without diluting Mercedes's premium brand.

    "There are no visible synergies," says Juergen Meyer, fund manager at Sweden's SEB Asset Management. "You have different companies with different products, different prices and different customers."
  • Mercedes name is still higher than Lexus, and once you look beyond the LS, Lexus isn't even close.

    Depending on how up-to-date the audience is. Market perceptions take time to change. In some circles, "the Cadillac of xxxx" is still a phrase of compliment. In others, nothing short of "the Lexus of xxxx" will do; for some, that's been the case since the mid-1990's, when actual buyers of MB started to experience reliability fiascos. "The Mercedes of xxxx" became a sort of joke for them.

    no one here has ever, ever disputed WHY a Mercedes cost more than a Lexus, only that it does and that cost plays a factor in the sales of the LS . . . It should be common sense IMO that if a car starts out 20K+ less than a competing car that the cheaper car would sell better

    We have been through this many rounds already. The MSRP difference does not even come close to reflect the true cost difference in acquisition. Go to MBUSA website, and you will get a pretty good idea of what kind of incentives it takes to move their cars, and how far their "prestige" has fallen. If you insist on repeating that non-existent "$20k," please don't be surprised if we have to go through yet another round of research on how much it really costs to drive a MB, in the opinion of MBUSA.
  • As an engineer, Dr. Zetsche apparently does not see much difference between MB and Chrysler. There is however a significant marketing difference, as witnessed by many a posters here. How to exploit the wallets of the die-hard MB fans, and leverage the economy of scale that Chrysler can potentially bring at the same time is indeed a tricky task. IMHO, it's either using Chrysler brand to expand economy of scale, or more low-end MB's like the A, B and C. Neither is palatable to MB HELC owners. However, it's hard to avoid the fate of RR if neither path to economy of scale is pursued. There just ain't enough buyers of "exclusive cars" :-)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Please do!

    Show us real purchase cost deals in which the 07 MB S Class $20K price premium disappears when compared to a 07 LS?
    I think that many forum members here would love to find these kind of deals and it would be of great assistance?

    In fact you never did show how the $20K difference between a 07 MB S and LS disappears unless ofcourse I am mistaken and missed reading one of your posts?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Dewey - In your opinion what do you think could/should have ever been gained by the marriage of the two to begin with? Just curious what your thoughts are on this.

    I'd really like to here merc's opinion on this as well.

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Not that this is the place to post this, but Chevy is actually selling more cars thanks in part to markedly better quality of their latest products. Oh and yeah, introducing the USA 2nd most selling vehicle('07 Silverado) in the process doesn't help matter much either.

    Factor in the new stylish Malibu, RWD Impala, new Camaro, first-ever for-real Hybrid Full-Size 'ute, upgraded Corvette, and an awesome new crossover all for '08, Chevy can only go up, and I wish the best for them.

    On to the subject at hand, yes the "LS" sells well, but the GS,GX, LX, SC's have fallen off by the boatload. The ES is not that hot right now either. It's problem is the stylish IS, probably the only Lexus worth of mention(besides the LS).

    But to call Audi negligible, a brand whose std. AWD has forced the hand of even the prodigious MBZ to at least offer it, a brand that still sets the tone for the finest execution of any car in it's respective class(even teaching Bentley the ropes) right down to offer performance variants that are the toast of the town. These are things Lexus is striving to acheive, not Audi. The jr. company has done good for it's 17 years of existance, but the little guy has to do some more growing, in particular getting a passport to venture outside of the US, even has to find it's own home. ;) :P
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Rockshoka1, I can tell you without hesitation, this is probably the best all-around performance sedan going right now.

    The S8 is one hellava deal. For $92k, you get a V-10 engine, that while down on power when compared to the monster AMG MB V8's, has an exhaust note not heard from on this side of a Ferrari 599 GTB.

    Audi kept the 4-positon air suspension intact by giving a plush ride, but you have the option to tune it all the way down to hustle corners like nobody's business. And of course the look is very distinguished, event the toothy grille has grown on me. And most of all, it can be a daily driver. I should know as I drive mine to the City at least 4 times a week, other than that , and on nasty days, the Accord must suffice(bummer :P )

    All in, it won't bullet out of a straight line like an AMG, but it blow it's Michelin's right off in the twisties. It hangs very well in corners with the 760i Sport, but will send it's breathless V12 packing back to Bavaria. And none the less, the AWD system is second to none.

    It has it's vices. It has a real passion for 93 octane if you lead it like myself. The shorter wb means a little less room on the inside than my W12, but that car is so long that a shorter wheelbase is definetely welcome. And everyone will definetely try to size you up if they're in a S55/65 or an XJR, just tap the gas and go.

    I really, really, really love this car as I gave up the best 4-door luxury on the market right now, the S600. But the S8 is sold out all over the place and it has my exact specification(Lambo engine mods that will remain nameless from those pesky NY State Troopers ;) ), so that is why I chose to keep it. And will do so for some time to come.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    In your opinion what do you think could/should have ever been gained by the marriage of the two to begin with?

    Nothing! What platform can be shared between MB and Chrysler without dilluting the prestige of MB? Did Zetsche's Chryselr advertisemnts about German engineering help Chrysler sales? No, not at all.

    So a closely knit MB-Chrysler will definitely hurt MB and may do nothing to help Chrysler. IMO Dr. Zetsche should seek an exit strategy from this combo from hell ASAP!

    The combination of a downstream marque like Chrysler (that does not have the reputation of Toyota) with a higly upstream marque like MB (that does have a far higher reputation than Lexus) is like mixing oil with water. It's pointless.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    But to call Audi negligible, a brand whose std. AWD has forced the hand of even the prodigious MBZ to at least offer it, a brand that still sets the tone for the finest execution of any car in it's respective class(even teaching Bentley the ropes) right down to offer performance variants that are the toast of the town. These are things Lexus is striving to acheive, not Audi. The jr. company has done good for it's 17 years of existance, but the little guy has to do some more growing, in particular getting a passport to venture outside of the US, even has to find it's own home

    Delusions of grandeur brought on by merciless persecution.

    You are standing in Lexus' home! Takes ba!!$ to go to another country and build a home court there, but Coming To America was the plan, and they made it rock. :)

    Any growing Lexus has to do has nothing to do with Audi, which has no buzz, no hype, and it's tuner cars are either overpriced (RS4) or underwhelming (S8). And the R8 is nothing to get worked up over.

    Audi needs to learn from Lexus. That tail doesn't wag this dog, sorry. :P

    DrFill
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    You're right it does take guts to take a stab in the home market, much the same way Audi slaughter Lexus in Japan.

    Audi has no hype? Aside from the truly underwhelming LS and uber-poseur IS, there is nothing to boast about at the golden L.

    Lexus is so great, yet it's taken years form them to even attempt the performance market. They don't even offer a manual in the top performance car(pretty sure you have a reason for this as Lexus always does), yet all others do. So great, yet it relies on a 12 year old SUV to play in the big leagues.

    Lexus is like a 2-Liter soda. Fizz all the way, for about 2 days, and it's as flat as Kansas from then on. :surprise: ;)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Any growing Lexus has to do has nothing to do with Audi, which has no buzz, no hype, and it's tuner cars are either overpriced (RS4) or underwhelming (S8). And the R8 is nothing to get worked up over.

    DrFill,

    your above statement proves you have not read much or heard much or driven in any Audis lately. Your statement reminds me of the quote below:

    The great threat to the young and pure in heart is not what they read but what they don't read.”
    Heywood C. Broun, 1910
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    They don't even offer a manual in the top performance car, yet all others do.

    Does MB?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    MB does not either. But all of that will change when the new '08 C350/63 bows this fall.

    But Audi offers 6-speed manual from an A4 2.0T to an RS4. So does BMW.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Oh, that's right. I forgot! :surprise:

    Audi is the one with the winning strategy! They are the true ballers!

    Make base cars nobody buys, then make uber cars nobody buys!

    Why didn't Lexus think of that! Darn fools!

    I guess you missed the part when I said no buzz, because I would only listen to Audi news when there is buzz.

    And here we are. :confuse:

    We need to work on a yawning icon. Right away!

    DrFill
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    The current MBZ C350 is available with a 6-speed manual. That leaves the IS350 as the lone ranger.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    After all of the Lexus hype of world domination only to see a value dud once again, I'm with you, we need a yawning(or napping) icon.

    And here we are. You've finally come to a point where you've aired out your dirty laudry with Audi to realize them for the true "ballers" they are.

    Gee Doc, I didn't think you had it in you.
  • Lexus is like a 2-Liter soda. Fizz all the way, for about 2 days, and it's as flat as Kansas from then on.

    I am sure you are talking about VW/Audi. Just look at their US market share percentage for the past 30 years.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Slap on an Audi emblem.

    Yawning? Audi news, or sales, release.

    DrFill
  • But to call Audi negligible, a brand whose std. AWD has forced the hand of even the prodigious MBZ to at least offer it

    blkhemi, MB had 4-matic for a long long time. And who doesn't? BMW, Infinity, Lexus and Acura all have it. And they all sell more than Audi. In that sense, MB's move is not toward Audi, but actually aimed at BMW and Lexus (in North American, that is).
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,606
    Luxury automobile owners rated Cadillac a solid first place as the brand that delivers the best customer experience in the 2007 Luxury Customer Experience Index (LCEI) survey of Automobiles from the independent New York-based Luxury Institute (www.LuxuryInstitute.com). Lexus and Acura placed second and third, respectively.

    http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=210784

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

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