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High End Luxury Cars

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  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    brightness04, houdini1, dhamilton,

    Thank you so much for your kind welcome.

    brightness04, Spain is warm all year round :) , but right now is snowing on it. Madrid is at the same parallel than New York City. If you come in winter, be prepared to some cold :blush:. Anyhow, nothing to compare to the snow storms of many regions in the USA.

    Now, a small piece of European news. The best seller brand in the LPS, HELC and luxury SUV niche altogether was BMW followed by Audi in 2005 and 2006. Next came MB. 2005 was the year in which Audi overtook MB. I cannot report the exact figures and its source because I through them away into the waste last week.

    Regards,

    Jose
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    An Audi A7? This certainly is not yet confirmed but here is a rendering of a possible A7. Personally I am no fan of 4 door coupes.

    So Houdini do you think this will sell well in France?
    How about Kansas? ;)

    image

    link title
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,067
    I have always liked any clean, simple design and Audi has usually been high on that list. My problems with Audi here in the heartland are as follows:

    1. Very poor dealers and dealer network.

    2. I think they are over priced.

    3. Reliability concerns.

    4. That ugly drop down scoop on the front. It has never grown on me.

    5. The advent, in 1989, of that gussied up Toyota.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    European news from our insider, JLBL!!

    "The best seller brand in the LPS, HELC and luxury SUV niche altogether was BMW in 2005 and 2006!"

    The Chris Bangle revolution continues world-wide!

    I wish Edmunds had an emotorcon illustrating "bursting with pride."

    PS: It may be warm in Spain but it just got a little warmer at the other LPS and HELC corporate offices! :shades:
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Exactly, Dewey... the obvious common sense things that brightness and houdini have mentioned are easy for all to see, but when specific quantitative numbers are inserted in place of a general process, then they need to be supported.

    It's one thing to say that there is an initial period of time in a model's cycle that it commands a higher price (common sense) than to say that prices peak at the 8-month mark, for example (requires supportive data).

    It's one thing to say that the price difference between an S and an LS expands or contracts under certain conditions (common sense) than to say the $20K difference disappears, for example (requires supportive data).

    We all have enough common sense here, for goodness sakes to understand and observe. But when brightness or anyone for that matter makes a quantitative statement, then it is common sense to want to know the analysis or data that is used to derive at his numbers... and that's what we've been asking for... it's just common sense to make such a request.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Not true. The RS and AMG cars as well as the Motorsport cars all have heavily revised suspensions, retuned gearing, fairly extensive body mods, and botique engines. Unless I missed something, it doesn't sound like the Alpina B7 has any of that. It seemed like a fairly off-the-shelf 7 series with a supercharger.
  • Is this your research on how the $20K 07 S Class- 07 LS price premium disappears?

    Nope. Already told you where my confidence came from regarding real S class pricing will be in much of its model cycle: previous cycles. Arguments and vindications regarding other car models are just proof of validity on the cycle theory . . . and how silly it really is to make pricing statements based solely on the first few months of a 6-8 year model cycle.

    A crystal ball would be required since there have never been LS LWB sales prior to the 07 model.

    One thing probably is for sure: even deeper discounting for LWB S class this time around because of what you mentioned.
  • The discussion is on LS vs. S, not just 07 LS vs. 07 S. Both marques have been around for much longer than a fraction of a model year.

    The vast difference in MSRP between LS and S have almost always been reduced to next-to nothing in recent model years and model cycles in terms of real transaction cost, even when they were more than $20k apart in MSRP's to start off. "This time it's different" is a battle cry for hucksters, and the ill-informed.
  • It's one thing to say that there is an initial period of time in a model's cycle that it commands a higher price (common sense) than to say that prices peak at the 8-month mark, for example (requires supportive data).

    Who said "_peak at_ 8-month mark"? Please provide supporting evidence.

    It's one thing to say that the price difference between an S and an LS expands or contracts under certain conditions (common sense) than to say the $20K difference disappears,

    hmm, if you agree that the price difference between S and LS contracts then you are contradicting the original MB advocate's quatitative statement regarding the $20k brand premium.

    when brightness or anyone for that matter makes a quantitative statement, then it is common sense to want to know the analysis or data that is used to derive at his numbers...

    Then how exactly does what you termed "common sense" regarding price gap fluctuation (quoted above) jive with the quantitative statement ($20k) asserted by a MB advocate?

    If you agree that price gap shrinks, and IMHO shrink dramaticly, during the bulk of the model cycle as common sense, I'm not sure what our disagreement is. The $20k quantitative number was not introduced by me, but by an MB advocate. My point was that the $20k claim is not backed up by real life transactions during the bulk of a model cycle. In case it's not obvious, nobody claimed the car going down in price by exactly $20k, not a cent more or a cent less. An MB advocate made the $20k quantitative statement; please take up the issue with him.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Ugly. Fugly.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I'm scanning posts and not reading anything that has $20K in it.
  • Wow. That's some ulgy -!
  • the A7 looks very Bangle-esqu.

    It will be interesting to see what shape Audi takes as Walter Da Silva leaves Audi for VW.

    I've really liked Mr Da Silva's elegant designs, sans the large over hang in front of the axle. [I know engineering necessity]
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    link title

    Why don't they just kill it?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    So Tagman what are your thoughts about the MB-Chrysler closer ties story?
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Very true. The Alpina B series models are not even comparable to M series models.

    But in the case of the 7 series the Alpina B is the best performance HELC you can buy at BMW with warranty coverage.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,067
    Yes, I agree it is time to move on. Enough of this prattle. If we all demanded proof and research on all statements made on this forum that is all we would be doing. I can see it coming to this:

    "Uh, Dr. HPowders could you please send me your written, documented, certified, annotated, unabridged, and notarized papers on the grabbiness of the brakes on the LS460?"

    "If not received immediately I will have to assume that you have no such proof and suggest that possibly a public caning would be in order. Just so there is no misunderstanding, the said caning would be for you, not me"

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Uh, Dr. HPowders could you please send me your written, documented, certified, annotated, unabridged, and notarized papers on the grabbiness of the brakes on the LS460?" "If not received immediately I will have to assume that you have no such proof and suggest that possibly a public caning would be in order.

    Well at least HPowders experiences of grabby brakes are confirmed by the expreiences of other forum members and auto journalists.

    How's this for a claim:

    The LS vs. S Class price differentials are far wider than what is indicated by MSRPs since Lexus LS models have far more incentives. You maybe ignorant of this fact but I have research that backs up my claim although I cant provide it to you in this forum. :P :P
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,067
    There you go. Now that's the spirit. We should all have license to say whatever we darn well please and not have to prove anything just in case we were in the mood to tell a whopper!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The A7's side profile has an uncanny resemblance to my BMW 335i sedan. Until today I never even knew I owned a 4 door coupe? :confuse:

    image
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes, Dewey. I only deal in the concrete and quantifiable.
    Not the hypothetical and abstract.
    Them's the brakes! ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes, Dewey. The Chris Bangle influence is everywhere.
    See most 2007 Toyotas and Lexi; and now Audi!
    A great compliment to Bangle's creative genius!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Howard,

    it is nice to know that there is at least one other forum member here that appreciates the high aesthetics of Bangle design. But outside this forum there are a great number of auto designers that have a fine eye for Bangle beauty. ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Thankfully, the opinions of Chris Bangle here, do not reflect what is going on in the real world, where it counts.
    More and more manufacturers are paying him tribute by copying his designs. :)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    This week Toyota in the US settled a class-action lawsuit, also covering Lexus, which potentially involves 7.5 million current and previous owners whose cars were possibly damaged by engine oil sludge, or what the judge called "oil gel". Brought by Lexus owners Sarah and Jeff Meckstroth, and heard in a Louisiana county court, the suit and its outcome have big implications for Australia.

    link title
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Why don't they just kill it?


    Here's the ridiculous answer why the Phaeton will not be discontinued:

    Dr. Winterkorn is saying that VW has to be visible with competence from Polo to Phaeton

    Piesch through his crony Winterkorn are still calling the shots at VW. In otherwords VW will remain in denial and continue its brisk downhill slide in the auto industry.

    Look out for another VW flop in the form of a rebadged Chrysler Minivan. This upcoming VW van is suppose to cater to North American tastes just like the Phaeton was suppose to cater to the tastes of North American luxury car owners. :lemon:
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Piesch through his crony Winterkorn are still calling the shots at VW. In otherwords VW will remain in denial and continue its brisk downhill slide in the auto industry.

    No matter who is supposedly in charge of VW, Piesch controls the whole show at VWAG. It will continue to be his game until he's off the board.
  • Very much agree. It is sad to see one man's ego ruining a pedigreed business like that; the downside of tight family ownership I suppose. Sometimes one almost has to wonder if Piesche is doing this intentionally so Porsche can pick up VWAG on the cheap.
  • Ads from 2003, 2004 and 2005 are not exactly lost forever. One can easily look up newspaper ads from that time period in a well stocked library. Even MB advocates pleading short memory have some idea what the real scores were back then. That's why the insistence on 2007 models. The thing is, there isn't even a $20k price gap in MSRP for comparable 07 models, so defending that price premium is a non-starter.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    there isn't even a $20k price gap in MSRP for comparable 07 models

    Actually we need to see an S450 before begining to talk about truly comparable models.
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