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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • You have pretty much pin-pointed the marketting difficulties facing S class. What kind of self-respecting car type people would buy a stretched car with extra leg room for the rear seat passengers while inevitably sacrificing handling due to the extra weight in the process? The self-respecting car type people would at least (or "at most" as far as the car size is concerned) get a 5 series with comparable V8, if not an outright 911 or Gallardo depending the depth of pocket.

    Marketing a stretched passenger car to car type people is a non-starter. The historical success of S class (in the 500 and 600 days) was based on its near-monopoly on non-car type people who had the money to get a cushy ride. Demographicly speaking, that means people in their peak earning years just before retirement. The really successful ones preferred to ride in the back seats; that's where the stretch length came from . . . not from 35 year olds who want to put a baby car seat there when not auto-crossing on weekends :-)

    Historically S class won hearts and minds of the well-heeled non-car type by the promise of reliabilty, safety and comfort, in a market where most competitors were limited to econoboxes, relatively speaking. It's a miracle that S class can still sell as well as it does after the vast market transformation that has taken place in the last decade and half. Brand cachet is a huge asset for S class. However, brand cachet can only go that far. That's why every model cycle of S class in the last decade faces drasticc margin compression after the first model year.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    From C&D's last Saab 9-3 test:

    Nor did the brakes, which only engaged at the bottom of the pedal stroke and produced a 198-foot stopping distance, good only compared with a garbage truck's. We concluded that there must have been a malfunction.

    Apparently somebody was asleep at the wheel when they were reviewing the LS.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Why can't you maintain dual postizenship?

    I already have too many passports. I will check if I can get a H1B Visa. ;)
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Apparently somebody was asleep at the wheel when they were reviewing the LS.

    Or somebody was awake behind the wheel and they were crappy (I meant grabby) brakes.
    Oh there I go again writing about a non-HELC like a 9-3. Writing here has as much restrictions as writing for PRAVDA (during Soviet or Putin times). :mad:
  • I understand what your saying. I am a Car&Driver subscriber and I sometimes have problems with the way things come out.

    But, once again, faulty brakes are on Lexus, faulty reporting is on Car&Driver.

    If your going to hammer the magazine for one, you've got to give the same poor marks to Lexus for not giving the car a thorough look before delivering it for testing.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    to the results that are obtained by the various mags and testers when testing the same model car. It is all worthless data if there is no standard truth that can be determined.

    Regarding the LS's grabby brakes. I do not give them an excuse or free pass by indicating that there are electronics involved in their brake system. The S-Class's brakes are terrific. They are better than the LS's brakes. Period. The S-Class demonstrates that no excuses are necessary to get it right.

    Brakes are too important to make excuses.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Or somebody was awake behind the wheel and they were crappy (I meant grabby) brakes.

    What I meant was, C&D didn't print "there must've been a malfunction" when they tested the LS, even though its distance was even longer than 198 feet. They seemed to think it was perfectly normal for the LS to do that.
  • ctsangctsang Posts: 237
    From Germany's Autoweek:
    "Drive-wise, the LS is superb in a straight line, handling bumps and road wallops easily. Acceleration is brisk, hitting 60 mph from a standstill in 6.29 seconds. Braking is an LS strong suit. The car needs just 113 feet to stop from 60 mph, which puts it on a level with sports car thoroughbreds such as the Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (112 feet)."
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,925
    Brakes are too important to make excuses.

    Do you feel the same about the BMW/C&D/brakes spinning out of control issue?

    Apparently not as I have seen at least 8 or 9 posts about the LS grabby brakes from you and nothing about the BMW spinning out of control.

    If brakes are so important to you you should really be up in arms on the BMW issue.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Brake issues related to the LS 460 is confirmed not only by Tagman and C & D but also by the following reviewers:

    CAR

    Edmunds

    AutoExpress

    And that is just the tip of the ice berg. You may find this shocking but there are a whole slew of other reviewers who are unimpressed with LS460 brakes. Even if the Lexus LS is equipped with a very loud horn I would avoid driving it because of self preservation reasons :lemon:
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    CSTang,

    this I think is the third time you posted the same quote. I hate to say this but three repetitions does not equal three positive reviews. :P
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,925
    None of the mags you listed said anything about the LS brakes being dangerous. They did not spin anyone out of control like the BMW. The BMW could get you killed. :lemon:

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Since that C&D review, no accident has been reported as a direct result of faulty BMW brakes for any 2006 or 2007 BMW models, as far as I know.

    I have had BMW's continuously since 1993 and the brakes have always stopped the vehicles quickly. I have absolute confidence in them even with that annoying little jerk at the end.

    This is from someone who actually drives BMW's.
  • This brake problem (from Edmonds):
    "At 4,507 pounds, the L weighs 250 pounds more than the standard-wheelbase sedan, which probably accounts for an increase of 8 feet in its stopping distance from 60 mph, some 136 feet."
    The difference between these two test is 23 feet. My opinion is that the reason for the difference is that the Autoweek car had the big brakes. Other opinions may vary. This will sort itself out as other rags run comparison tests.
    BTW, I have driven one as did my wife. She said the brakes were "grabby" and she does not read car reviews. She drives an LS430.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    In my opinion, if a magazine test finds something wrong with a vehicle and it cannot be corroborated in other reviews, then there is nothing to be concerned about.

    However, when there is a general consensus of reviews all pointing to the same thing, whether it's steering, braking or an overly complicated user interface, a potential buyer should sit up and take notice.

    If I read several reviews on the Audi A8 mentioning bad brakes, steering, seats or whatever, I would simply move on and cross the vehicle off my list.

    I may like BMWs and Audis, but I am surely not bound to them in any way. It's always a case of what have you done for me lately.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,925
    I guess that I am one of the few posters here who has actually driven the LS460. I wasn't concentrating on the brakes but I certainly did not notice anything wrong with them. They seemed to be responsive and well modulated to me and they worked very well.

    This is the only test that I am interested in and it passed with flying colors. The brakes were simply a non issue for me as I was busy enjoying all this fine automobile has to offer. It is like 1989 all over again. The combination of performance, reliability, quality, and price make this the #1 luxury automobile for the umpteenth year in a row. Long live the King.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    If brakes are so important to you you should really be up in arms on the BMW issue.

    If there was ANY continuing concensus about the BMW having spinning problems, or ANY shred of additional evidence then, yes, I would give some credibility to the concern. But since there is absolutley NOTHING else that has EVER duplicated that unique event, I find no reason at all to consider it anything other than an isolated unique event.

    You are obviously using that unique BMW situation as an excuse to somehow excuse the LS's brakes.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    That's what I said in post 24042.

    When there is absolutely no other review of any BMW vehicle out there mentioning any problem with brakes, it is illogical to focus on that one rogue review. Everybody who knows the slightest thing about cars, whether they like BMW vehicles or not, knows and must concede that BMW brakes are among the best in the business. Always have been. As predictible as gravity. :shades:
  • rikuriku Posts: 10
    It's a heck lot more important to drive the car, and hit the brakes on your behavior more than what the C&D and Autoweek guys and gals tell you.

    In general, most German car brakes are superb to their Japanese counterparts. Braking distance however, are as scientific as putting on stickier rubber matched with larger rotors and calipers. What's more important is how you feel behind the wheel.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Wow! Throwing the LS under the bus! That's wild! :surprise:

    Sorry to lose you, man. It was cool while it lasted.

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    The LS has average brakes (not unsafe, just average car brakes), and supercar brakes available.

    Houdini

    Forgot how C&D not only gave a pass to the 330i, but let it narrowly beat the Lexus IS350, when it couldn't even finish the competition? Another bone of desention, if you will. Can't award a title to someone who can't even finish the course. C&D comparisons have slipped A LOT in the last couple of years, but C&D has many warts, if you look at 'em over the years.

    When the E420 came out, it was picked on for the same "Grabby" brakes, as it went electronic, primarily.

    Can't fake 'Vette-like brake perfromance, so the upgraded brakes must be worth the money. I'm glad someone got around to testing them.

    C&D should do a Short Take LS460 test with a car that isn't so luxury-biased, a car with 19" wheels.

    DrFill
  • Brake failure is actually a reasonably common cause for accidents, for all brands, not just BMW. That's why regular brake maitenance is highly recommended. Luckily, 70-to-0 braking in less than 150ft is not an every day manuever on highways. Otherwise, we'd be witnessing a lot of carnage on daily basis. If you are into weekend racing or autocrossing, you can see cars going from brand new brakes to unable to maintain a straight line in braking (needless to say drasticly affecting braking distance) within a couple afternoons of repeated frequent application of brakes. That's why the reviewers should really check the brakes are in working order before testing and writing up reports.
  • but also, the manufacturer should check the vehicle out as well.
  • Braking distance however, are as scientific as putting on stickier rubber matched with larger rotors and calipers.

    Very true. That, and a computer programmed to apply full braking force as soon as the pedal is touched, without waiting for the 1/2 second that it takes for the depth of foot pedal travel ;-)
  • A lot can happen between when the reviwers picking up the car to the time when the actual tests taking place. Joy riding magazine reviewers are not exactly known for pampering cars :-)
  • Agreed. For his 67K a non-car guy gets a lot of car in an LS460. For the (fewer) guys who can afford to spend more, 82K (if you can find one for that) for an S is a big jump up in price.

    Speaking of margin compression, the New York papers have BMW official factory lease deal on the 750i at $995 per, with roughly 5K down for 36 months and 30K miles. They have a 48K buyout on their 77K car which seems very, very optimistic. Is it your contention that the elevated buy out is where the factory is going to take the hit on the margin?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    OAC, welcome back. Speaking of "the new LS kicking the S in sales", I was in a Lexus showroom this afternoon. First time in many a year. They had a new LS460 on display. The car looked fantastic with a wood wheel and great interior, etc. The MSRP was only 67K.

    Blkislandguy, thanks.... The LS460 is a very fine piece of art. It is a car that really met and some would say, exceeded expectations. I am a Lexus fan and remain a fan to date. Last summer while on a business trip to Japan, I posted on the old HELM board about my impressions of the new S (badged S500) on the streets of Tokyo. That was the first I saw the new S and the car was a beauty especially in black. But that is not taking anything away from the LS460 either. The latter clearly has made its own design direction... Maybe I am too hard on the new LS cos my expectations were even higher :) In the next redo, I'd like the front to be a tad more aggressive... that would really nail it for me.

    Let's put it this way: given a choice b/w both lux marques, I'd BUY the LS but would rather LEASE the S, return it after 3 years, and then buy a 3-yr-old LS460L :)

    I was also struck in looking at this dealer's inventory at how much Lexus depends, at least here in the Northeast, on SUVs and cross overs. Seemingly, half his inventory was in SUVs and cross overs.

    What cross-overs are these ? :confuse: Are you sure you were not inside an Infiniti shop ? :) And Lexus SUV is really all RXs... Lexus make finite amounts of GX and even more finite LXs. Lexus' bread_and_butter are the LS, RX and ES. Those are what pays the bills... And there are no cross-overs among the crop. Now if you really want to see a true cross-over Lex, wait for the HPX... or the LF-X ! That would be a great car/crossover if Lexus ever builds it.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Ouch ! I will NEVER throw the LS under any bus, LOL... I remain a fan... Say, you have a beef with the non-MT IS3 or GS3/4.. I have a beef with the not-so-aggressive front of the new LS. Put more meat under that large "L" fascia and I'll be all over it. But, the car remains pretty impressive nonetheless. The S carries the marque spirit of MB pretty well, and its such a great car as well...

    BTW, methinks there really is no reason to continue this back_and_forth bashing of one car over another. Personally, I have moved on from such debate. It serves no real purpose except to reharsh old worn out debates. I thought this was a new HELC forum ? Much like the old HELM imo...
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I just didn't expect you to swoon for the S-Class styling, which makes me swoon for the previous S500.

    The stance of the A8 is great, but the styling of the LS is a great value compared to the competition. It looks more expensive than the others, IMO.

    DrFill
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