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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    That BMW would hamstring their own car that way, Toyota-esque, if you will. I would think Toyota and BMW have different clientele, different objectives.

    If the BMW can't outperform, what good is it? At $90k, not much.

    Bad enough iDrive is standard. No joy for 5 fans. :cry:

    Wouldn't put it past BMW to stack the deck against the manual, to put over the controversial SMG. The SMG does have to pay for itself, at some point.

    BMW is not as prescient as other companies in knowing what it's customers want/expect. You get what they give you. :confuse:

    DrFill
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Unfortunately "Computers on Wheels' is the future for all cars including performance ones.

    Not necessarily. The Z4M is what a Motorsport car should be, rude and crude. Lotus also hasn't become infatuated with computers and iDrive style control systems. Then you have cars like the Ariel Atom, which is an Elise without all the unnecessary extras, like a windshield and body.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    That BMW would hamstring their own car that way, Toyota-esque, if you will. I would think Toyota and BMW have different clientele, different objectives.

    Even Volvo lets you shut down the stability control on the S60R.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Please let's keep our comments focused on the high end cars and leave out the sniping at each other. Some more posts have been removed.

    I know you guys know how to keep to the subject without dragging personal comments into the debate. Let's get back there, okay?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    It's coming... in 2009.

    link title

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070306/UPDATE/703060451/1148- /AUTO01

    Wow! $11,345 support on 7 series! Wonders of financial engineering ;-)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    OMG, don't let this amazing opportunity pass you by.
    Now's your chance to trade in your Saab for a REAL driving machine. ;)

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Didn't know BMW was having this much trouble moving the metal!

    Regarding the 7 series, this information may be a referendum on the less than opulent or inviting interior, and hopefully an improvement, brand-wide, is in the works.

    DrFill
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,271
    I am surprised that you folks have not commented on the new information that ljflx revealed (LS460 forum) about R & T's admitting that testing of the post production models are much more accurate test results. Based on the fact that C & D tested a pre-production LS460, basically proves that those results were quite erroneous. I would paste his post here but I will not do so without his permission.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    So when I read a positive review of a BMW pre-production vehicle in R&T or C&D, the car I may eventually lease should actually be even better? Great news!
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,870
    Well, I think anyone with a brain and that knew how to read already knew that the report in question was completely bogus. Most people just dismissed it out of hand.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    7 series is not a REAL driving machine; it's a HELC. In any case, I'm looking to add a car, not trading the Saab, because the Saab is probably more valuable as a justification for writing down the entire lease payment on the new car as business expense.

    Since you brought up Saab, what really scares me is that BMW's turbo-charging gammit is smelling like what Saab did in the 80's: extracting short term profit on existing engine instead of ploughing more money into massive new R&D. It would be a damn shame if BMW becomes non-viable as an independent going concern . . . kinda scary on a day when Dr. Z talks about MB itself potentially becoming a take-over target.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Didn't know BMW was having this much trouble moving the metal!

    There was definitely change in the wind, in the last couple years, first with the 7 and 5, then even the 3 starting last year. Cars that used to command nearly full MSRP became heavily discounted and subsidized. I have been repeatedly pointing out the unusual lease subsidies that have been happening, signifying underlying weakness. Glad to be vindicated by the late-as-usual professional analysts. Getting eggs in the face is the usual fate of being a prophet. I was talking about eminent homebuilder and lending industry collapse in Spring 2005; people thought I was an idiot at the Memorial Day luncheon that year. Same went with my predictions on the relative market potentials of Wagoner, Ford and Chrysler about a year ago, even as everyone piled on criticizing GM management.

    The consumer market itself really speaks loud and clear, long before the talking heads get the memo. The BMW dealer offered to do everything possible to make a deal on the last day of the month. . . too bad I injured my hand (in an unrelated accident) shortly after the test drive a couple days before. The guy may not even work there anymore this month.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Since you brought up Saab, what really scares me is that BMW's turbo-charging gammit is smelling like what Saab did in the 80's: extracting short term profit on existing engine instead of ploughing more money into massive new R&D. It would be a damn shame if BMW becomes non-viable as an independent going concern

    That really doesn't seem likely. The only engines Saab has ever built that've been world class have gone into the Draken and Gripen. BMW is one of the premier engine builders in the world. In the case of the 335i, rather than let Infiniti and Lexus beat them with the G and IS, they used a turbo. There's no way they could've engineered a new engine with 300+ naturally aspirated hp in time for the '07 MY. Look at how long Audi and Mercedes continued to use their 2.8L and 3.2L engines when the Japanese had far more horsepower from their 6s. BMW is the last one to get lazy when it comes to new engines.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    You guys move fast from subject to subject!

    Well, I just blew back in from Maine. I've missed a lot to say the least.

    But the biggest blunder of all has to be Dewey. I never knew you disliked Audi's that much. You're a BMW driver and you want to call Audi's "unreliable"? Well, I just drove the snot out of the S8 without so much as a hiccup. Sorry Dewey that you feel this way, but all of my Audi's have been free of any problems.

    BTW: the XKR will be here on the 25th. Can't wait.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Excellent post, LG.

    Bimmer has been building the straight-6 motor for decades, yet they've never failed and with proper maintenance, have been known to exceed 200k miles with ease.

    Just because the Japanese-brand models are coming out with hot V6's doesn't make BMW obsolete, as we all know the 3-Series still holds it own.

    The 335 makes 300hp even, yet it's 4.75 0-60 makes it faster than the 306hp IS and GS. Only the new 300hp CTS is left to chance it.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Didn't know BMW was having this much trouble moving the metal!

    Having trouble moving cars and getting overly-aggressive to generate volume sales are two entirely different things...

    TagMan
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    Wouldn't you say the RS4 and M5 are high-end? I mean, $70K and $90K. Not many low-end car buyers can afford them!

    IMO the RS4 is much better than the E60 M5. It's a bit of an E39 reincarnate. Supreme handling, gearbox, engine, style, interior... and even similar power from its (smaller) V8.

    The only difference? It has the wrong configuration. Like Porsche, Audi has learned how to deal with this the hard way. It's harder to make the RS4 great to drive than an M5 or M3.

    And this is coming from someone who desperately wants the new M3:

    http://www.autospies.com/news/GENEVA-MOTOR-SHOW-PHOTO-GALLERY-More-photos-of-the- -BMW-M3-Concept-13171/

    It's beautiful. I want an M3 convertible to replace the S4 and an S5 coupe as my next winter car. Ultimate performance fleet! And I'd be able to compare them.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    MB switched from Inline6 to V6 in the early 1990's in order to address the packaging issue.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Does every discussion have to turn into some kind of phallus length comparision? Read the previous posts again, it's on a very specific topic about packaging, as in engine space vs. crumple zone space. MB switched from I6 to V6 in the early 90's to address this very issue. BMW has been the lone hold-out. It becomes an issue when cylinder bore size makes the engine unwieldily long for modern sedan packaging efficiency.

    BTW, the 200k boast is so ludicrous. If it's so easy, why isn't BMW offering 200k warranty? For what it's worth, both my 5 series developed engine oil jellying problem shortly after 100k miles.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Vehicles based on A4 and 5 series platforms are all too small to be in HELC. A $200k V10 motorcycle is not HELC, regardless how well it handles. HELC is not about handling. Read the tagline of the forum.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    The two are one and the same if the cars are already built . . . well, actually if the production lines are already built to make that many cars. The BMW dealer lots are indeed much fuller nowadays than I remembered a decade ago. Back then, you order a BMW, it will come in a couple months. Nowdays, for most models, the salesperson can go to the back "warehouse" and pull up the car exactly to your requirement and in the color you like. How many cars are parked back there anyway? ;-) I certainly hope BMW's gamble on currency plays out okay: by the time the cars come back on lease returns, hopefully dollar is worth more in terms of Euros so that the accounting in Euros will look okay and the company can pay back debt. Having an aggressive competitor around certainly benefit the consumers. It's hard to beat some of the deals on BMW's nowadays: 10+% off with Euro delivery on the front end, and 70-75% residual at the back end, leaving only 15% MSRP to pay for two years of drivig pleasure; life is wonderful for us consumers.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    HELC is not about handling.

    Gee whiz, when I tested the S550 and the LS460L, I must have made a big mistake when I made references to the cars' handling. And I guess Car and Driver and Road and Track and Motor Trend and Automobile and Edmunds and AutoWeek all must be out of their minds to ever discuss handling when they review a HELC... after all YOU have declared that HELC is not about handling.

    Sorry to pop your balloon, but ALL cars are about handling. It just so happens that handling is an inherent characteristic of every car, including low-end cars, high-end cars, and everything in between.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    So did you end up buying the S550? Nope. People who are looking for handling as #1 priority in a car don't end up buying HELC. Selling HELC on handling is a non-starter. There is no "handling" in "High End Luxury Car"; the word "Luxury" however is there as the defining quality. Emphasizing handling on HELC makes about as much sense as emphasizing cargo space or seating count on HELC . . . sure it can be a bragging point for some gearheads, but seriously, is that the reason why people sign checks for the car? Nope.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,870
    Maybe where you live has something to do with whether or not handling on a luxury car is the dominant factor.

    There are very few twisty mountain roads in the Kansas City area. Virtually 100% of my driving consists of 35 mph suburban driving, bumper to bumper freeway driving, or 75 mph freeway driving. Mostly all in a fairly straignt line. Hair trigger steering and twitchiness and even manual transmissions are not condusive to this type of driving. Quiet, comfortable serenity is.

    I have had to resign myself to finding excitement and thrills in other venues. ;)

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Reuters-9:05AM ET: "BMW, the world's largest premium carmaker, is raising its dividend by more than 9% after record 2006 earnings."
    "The past year has been the best financial year so far in the company's history," CE Norbert Reithofer said. " :)
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Very good point. Handling is of paramount importance to some drivers, sometimes, not all drivers at all times. When I shop for a roadster, luxury compact (e.g. M3) or convertible, handling is very high on the priority list. On the other hand, handling is way down the list of priorities when I shop for HELC, minivans and trucks. If someone puts handling as #1 priority, a 5 series with identical V8 beats the 7 series any time of the day; a car on a 3 or A4 series platform would handle even better.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Short-term profitability is easy to manage when a company crimps on R&D, and inflate sales with fictitious transaction prices. The it all comes to a screeching halt one day. Hopefully that's not what's behind BMW's numbers, although the major German financial institutions are getting suspicious of BMW is doing.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    So did you end up buying the S550? Nope.

    We don't need another HELC in our garage. But, if the purchase of a HELC was mine to make at this time, I would definately base my decision on handling as one of the more important criteria. Many others feel the same way, and determine for themsleves which HELC has the type of handling that they prefer.

    My wife, however, does not care as much about the handling of a car as she does the style and appearance. While not my first priority, I will admit that style and appearance are important to me also.

    There is no "handling" in "High End Luxury Car"; the word "Luxury" however is there as the defining quality.

    The words "braking" or "steering" or "powertrain" are not there either, but they are inherit characteristics of any vehicle, and they do not need to be included in the definition.

    Handling is an important inherent characteristic of every car at every price. Who doesn't know that?

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Sorry Blkhemi,

    no offense intended. I thought I redeemed myself from that Audi comment with the post I made after:

    I am not trying to diss the Audi brand. I myself and the Audi drivers I know yearn to buy another Audi. Also BMW, MB and Porsche are not renowned for reliability.


    Audi shot up 15 spots according to the CR results. My point is who the hell cares? I mean the fact that a car brand can jump within one year without radical changes in their product-line indicates how useless those CR measures are.

    Hold the confetti for Audi and save it for another occasion. Those CR results are just not worth any euphoria IMO.

    And yes I repeat Audi, BMW and MB do not have stellar reliability stats. There is no blunder whatsoever in stating the obvious! But again if I wanted the best reliable car on this planet I would buy a i4 Corolla, Civic or Mazda3. Or even better I would solely drive my 83 MB 300D and not bother with any new cars.

    And in terms of reliablility and maintenance costs I would definitely avoid the new Lexus LS600Lh. I dread to think of how much such a vehicle would cost to maintain out of warranty.
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