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High End Luxury Cars

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  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    This car is the most interesting of the lot. First, they have to do something about that pricing in the US market, or no one will buy it. Its got to be on the same price level as the E63 and M5.

    LG, I am not sure I agree with the comparisons you make here. The M5/E63 are 2-door coupes, while the GT450 is a real sports car. The GT450 goes up against cars like the SL, Carrera, etc... and hence priced within that range. Besides, these may be Japanese prices, and the US price may differ.

    Second, whoever the magicians are that can get the GS platform to actually perform at that level, get them to work on the regular versions of the car, and the IS! I want to see "GT sport packages" for the regular lineup.

    You may get your wish cos this "GT" may be the tuning arm Lexus promised for all these new L-Finesse releases. One sentiment that came across while I was out here and chatting with several people was echoed by a poster yesterday - that Toyota/Lexus has to thread carefully not to get a huge anti-Toyota backlash of their success, at a time most other auto companies are hurting. Recall the history of the Japan/US auto relationships of the early 70s ? Toyota/Lexus can do anything they want, but won't do anything they want...
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Oh I see, the GT450 is the production name for the LF-A sports car. When I read your report, I was thinking of the "GT" tuning arm rumors from a few years ago, so I thought you were talking about a V10 powered GS going after the M5 and S6. Oops!
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Toyota/Lexus has to thread carefully not to get a huge anti-Toyota backlash of their success

    To the extent that they do this, imho it would not be by producing products that weren't as good as they could make them; that wouldn't be helpful to longterm brand building. Rather, it would be by pricing higher than they could, so as to not take too much share too fast and be accused of taking US jobs.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Maybe that's the reason they are doing so well.
    Call it the Ken Lay effect.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I read in this week's Autocar, a European mag. I'm not sure if we'll get the diesel or the new 3.5L V-6 going into the '07 Non-American-spec XJ's. Either one should give the line some sort of boost.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I agree, except that I think you guys will be under siege within 5 years, not 10.
    Hyundai seems to be aiming its sights squarely at Toyota's Camry and Avalon with the Sonata and Azera, respectively.
    Can an LS challenge be far behind?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I agree, except that I think you guys will be under siege within 5 years, not 10.
    Hyundai seems to be aiming its sights squarely at Toyota's Camry and Avalon with the Sonata and Azera, respectively.
    Can an LS challenge be far behind?


    Sorry, this is wishful thinking in a 5-yr time frame. You don't get to a HELM just that quickly. And Hyundai, for all its success still remains a notch below the CamCords, in price and perception. It gotta go way over the top to even remotely challenge any Lex brand, certainly NOT an LS. Not by a long shot. For now, it can mount a serious competition to the Camry and Avalon, but its still not a huge dent, considering the new styles of the Toyotas and their continued success in the market. The Elantra made attempts at the Corolla and Civic, and got its hinny handed to it. The Azerra and Sonata are fine products, for a Hyundai, but still not yet up there, at least in the general market perception.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I think they could introduce something withing a few years, but would they truly be impactful in the HELM space in a 5 year timeframe? Possible, but a challenge, imho.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    For the first time in a long time, I have to sharply disagree with you:

    "Sorry, this is wishful thinking in a 5yr time frame. You don't get to a HELM just that quickly.."

    HMM? Wasn't it in 1989 when Toyota had not ONE HELM in NA and deciding to come up with Lexus, with LS400 and ES250? And this was all supposed to be done in a timeframe of 2 years?

    Hyundai has a high-luxury in it's homeland, called the Dynasty. It is RWD and has 300-hp+ V-8. If I were you, I wouldn't short change this company so fast.

    BTW: Since the Elantra got canned, then why does it rate higher than the Civic, Jetta, and Mazda 3?">link title And they sell a boatload of these things, and it's platform mate the Kia Spectra. It may not be as polished as the benchmark cars(IMO, the car outright chokes the long-in-the-tooth Corolla), but it sure does stack up well.

    And with Hyundai getting into the major's(big family car market with the Azera, and next with the premium market midsize next year with RWD/280+hp V-6), the company definetely has earned respect from me, particularly since it was just a short 10 years ago(maybe shorter) when the Hyundai was akin to the Yugo.

    So will it take them more than 5yrs to build an American acceptable HELM? At the rate they're going, I don't think so.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    For the first time in a long time, I have to sharply disagree with you:

    Gotta happen sometime :)

    HMM? Wasn't it in 1989 when Toyota had not ONE HELM in NA and deciding to come up with Lexus, with LS400 and ES250? And this was all supposed to be done in a timeframe of 2 years?

    Blkhemi: I do respect your posts and knowledge, so permit me to disagree with you, somewhat, as well.

    When Toyota introduced Lexus in 1989, it was leveraging on a history and reputation of Toyota's solid build quality and reliability. The Corolla was a staunch staple of low-end compact buyers, the LC was legendary for its solid build and off-road prowress, and the Camry was inching up the steep curve of family sedan leadership. OTOH, what does Hyundai have that could shoot them through the warp space of acceptability: The Sonata - a blatant copy of an Accord, tho' solid build, quality of materials still look dated and subpar, but acceptable at its price point. The SUVs are all copy-cats, no originality whatsoever. The Azerra is too new to make a dent in anything for now. That market is owned by the Avalon, Buick, and Ford.

    So Hyundai needs to be fighting on many fronts:

    Small-midsized SUV - against Rav4/Highlander/RX/4Runner, etc.
    Minivan - against T&C, Sienna, Oddy, etc
    Family sedan - against Camry, Accord, the perennial leaders, new Fusion, etc
    Full-size sedan - against Avalon, Lucerne, Ford 500, Chrysler 300, etc..

    And this does not include starting a luxury arm... Honda and Nissan, despite their reputations, have not found Toyota/Lexus' level of success in the HELM space, what's gonna make Hyundai overcome the huge challenges of the likes of Lexus, BMW, MB, Audi, Jag, etc...? Does Hyundai even have the deep pockets required to battle the big boys ? And what reputation does it have beyond SKorea and the US ? At least Toyota is everywhere in the world, more or less - Africa, Asia, Europe, America, Australia, Middle East.

    Hyundai challenging in HELM in 5 years ???? I don't see this happening in a 5-yr time frame. Not that it cannot happen, just the timeline is where I disagree with.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    Tagman - One of the ways I look at value stocks is to net cash against market cap or to add debt to market cap - whatever the case may be. So just deduct $47bln in cash from microsofts market cap. On an Adjusted Market Cap basis (my term) the PE is way too low - particularly when you look at forward looking PE.

    JD Powers - Too bad they don't summarize comps in the sole areas where last years cars were rated. At least that way we'd get an apples to apples vs. last year.

    Al zarqawi - I didn't catch the exact time of death, particularly given the time zone differences. Is it possible he died on June 6, 2006? If so that would be something.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    If you take cash out of the market cap you also should deduct after-tax net interest from earnings before calculating PE.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Sorry, this is wishful thinking in a 5-yr time frame. You don't get to a HELM just that quickly. And Hyundai, for all its success still remains a notch below the CamCords, in price and perception. It gotta go way over the top to even remotely challenge any Lex brand, certainly NOT an LS.

    I agree. Hyundai is still trying to properly place itself and Kia in the market. A new badge in 5 years? Foggetaboutit. Just as with the total faiure that was the Mazda\Amati project, its way too early for Hyundai to be thinking about starting a luxury brand.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I agree. Hyundai is still trying to properly place itself and Kia in the market. A new badge in 5 years? Foggetaboutit. Just as with the total faiure that was the Mazda\Amati project, its way too early for Hyundai to be thinking about starting a luxury brand.

    I also agree.

    Given that the Azera is now the fastest Korean car, I would expect that more luxury and even more performance will come from Hyundai over the next few years. And, of course, they can milk that twisted JDP IQ study with some aggressive advertising. If everything goes according to plan, they can introduce a premium vehicle, but not a HELM, and see how it does. Assuming it does well . . . a HELM in about 7 to 8 years, IMO.

    Remember, though, the CHINESE are coming! That will also potentially shift the "Asian equation". Kinda has a ring to it, doesn't it?

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    check back with you guys in 5 years time.
    I already marked it down on my calendar.
    By then the siege should be well-under way as JD Power overwhelmingly picks the $85,000 Hyundai Crown-Prince as its best tested vehicle ever.
    It will have so much trunk room, it will become the vehicle of choice for smuggling illegals across from Tijuana to San Diego.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Isn't the JD Power "APEAL" study supposed to judge things gone right, subjectively, in a car evaluation?

    Sounds, at best, redundant to factor such subjective criteria into a statistical study based on vehicle quality.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Doc,

    "First time I'm right?" Gee, thanks for nothing. :P

    or . . .

    First time you agree with me? Which makes you right for the FIRST time! ;)

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    Taxes go down 40-50% on that interest too. One way or another that is a very low PE for a company that powerful that has been growing the top line a consistant 10-15% every year.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    so you disagree with my PE data which shows 17.49?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    LOL. Very funny Hp.
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