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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Given the high performance standards of German LPS and HELM, there is an inevitable compromise in reliability.
    However, standards are so high these days, that "average" reliability today would have been "extraordinary" 20 years ago, IMO.
    I don't believe one is taking a huge risk in purchasing a German vehicle today. Reliability is indeed as you so perfectly nail it, "good enough."
    I had no problem deciding on my 545 even though CR gave it the dreaded black mark for reliability.
    Given the performance, it was a risk worth taking.
    So far, close to the end of year one, no reliability issues at all.

    Come on folks, when was the last time you saw an Audi, BMW or MB stuck on the side of the road waiting for the AAA guy?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I concur HP. Take for instance my '01 S500. 41,000 miles on the odo when I got rid of it to take possession of my '03 S8. Only but two probs: The crazy COMAND probs everyone had and the failure of 1 HID bulb premuturely. That is it. And my '91 classic 560 SEL was a model enviable reliability, no probs whatsoever until I traded it in '95 for the new 740iL. I should've definetely kept as a collectors car(and it's still inmensely popular here in NY because they never die, especially the old 300SD's) because it was truely Benz before the wrong hands got to it.

    CR had this car blacked-out from engine to trans to electricals to even the comfort level, which was interesting as the car was quite comfortable, ahead of all Germans in '01. What they don't tell you is that for every "eventual" prob they think the car will have, they'll mark it out. Check every single European car tbey test and it tells the story of bad electricals.

    Not every S430/500 had bad quality then. If so, why are there so many still on the road with such bad quality? Plenty of '00/01's can be found on the road today, many being with the original owners. Would someone actually think that a person in their sound body and mind would pour thousands into a "piece of junk" like this? Hardly. The same can be said about Lexus. Not all of them experience "trouble free" operation.

    And now to Audi, which CR gives mixed reviews. First they say that the A8 is flat out subpar, but turn back one page and the A6 4.2(which has the same running gear as the A8) is flawless. How's about that? But interestingly enough, they save some of the heat on my '06 W-12, which is quite interesting as the Phaeton W-12 scored horridly so, again the same running gear.

    Personally, I wouldn't believe one ioda that came out of that mag. And you're right, exactly how many of the German cars you see on the side of the road? Not many, if any. It's just yet another smear campaign in the pursuit of "perfection".......
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,666
    "I honestly don't care what its skidpad numbers are, thats not why I bought it. I think that probably goes for most LS owners"

    LG - that's true of 95% of the buyers of the LS, S, 7 and A8 as well. The only thing most people will take note of are 0-60 times and HP.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Yes. And if German luxury and high-end vehicles were such basket-case reliability hazards, how can one explain their sales going through the roof?
    I mean Audi, BMW and MB should be going out of business if you believe CR and its ilk.

    Hey folks, people are not that stupid.
    There appears to be a serious disconnect between reliability statistics and the real world.

    You can only go so far with this stale, tiring Lexus reliability argument.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Let me say this about the "performance" thing here. If the vital statistics didn't have significance, all the rags wouldn't be constantly measuring them and comparing them. But I must say that I do indeed agree with many of you that ultimately it is just an indication of a car's potential, and the more typical "feel" of a car is either OK with us or not. ljflx is right about the 0-60 times and HP, but I would add "cornering" to that as well.

    Most of us are not about to take these vehicles to ridiculous limits on our way to work (except hpowders, when challenged on the freeway) ;) .

    The merits of performance, whether or not we ever personally reach or care about their actual limits, are legitimate measurements, however, and when making claims of superiority, they end up being tossed into the arena, I suppose.

    It still gets down to the claims of superiority by the Lexus camp regarding reliability that continuously goes beyond what matters in "real life". Again, the Mercedes reliability is generally and historically "good enough". And the claims of superior handling by the Mercedes camp that go beyond "real life" requirements, as the performance of the Lexus in real life has typically been "good enough".

    This argument, it seems never ends, and the same results occur each time. That is, until the vehicles themselves change enough to give us very different feedback. Of course, with the new S-Class and the upcoming new S, the playing field is in a state of change. I personally can't wait to read the head to head comparos of the new LS against the new S-Class. This forum will be lit up like Christmas. Great days lie ahead for all of us.

    These recent "service interval" remarks may have some merit, as we haven't really tossed that around a bunch. I suppose the costs of those services could be significant if they are major services, as opposed to oil/filter changes.

    One other thing that I believe has come out of all of this is the much deserved attention to Audi. And it's about time, IMO.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Note: I never initiate a challenge, but when the boys and girls want to play, I'm game.
    I only lost 2 of them because my stupid instinct for self-preservation got the better of me.
    Let 'em think they beat a 545.
    My gift to Interstate 75. :)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    my stupid instinct for self-preservation got the better of me.

    Damn good instinct, IMO.

    So, later this year if I get that Lotus Elise, what games should I expect?

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Well, whenever I go bicycle riding ( road bike), I know where to find my crash helmet-the passenger seat of the 545.

    With a Lotus, even I may come out of my shell and initiate a challenge.

    Just get some good metal polish. The new sheriff in town must wear a very shiny badge!

    They'll swarm from the left and the right from hundreds of feet away at warp factor 2 with only one mission-to cut right in front of you. After they do so, they will smugly reduce their speed. Mission accomplished.

    This weekend I will devote to running through a list of serious excuses why I cannot move back to NYC and its 60 mph average highway speed so I can perhaps get a Cayman and stay in Florida with its 85 mph average speed.
    The Commander has her heart set on moving back to LI, the land of massive congestion and property taxes.
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    I had a chance to check out the Lotus, and is realy appears to be a fun car...I didn`t ask for a drive but am sure it would be a `bullet` The workmanship was great, along with the fit and finish...Once in and seated, fit like a glove...It --imo--should be a special car for special times....Tony
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    It still gets down to the claims of superiority by the Lexus camp regarding reliability that continuously goes beyond what matters in "real life". Again, the Mercedes reliability is generally and historically "good enough".

    With regards to many of the measureable vital statistics, the Mercedes shines. With regards to the reliability, it is a statistic that favors the Lexus, but realize that reliability can occur at ANY price tier, and frequently does so at the economy tier...

    I don't believe one is taking a huge risk in purchasing a German vehicle today. Reliability is indeed as you so perfectly nail it, "good enough."

    Not every S430/500 had bad quality then. If so, why are there so many still on the road with such bad quality? Plenty of '00/01's can be found on the road today, many being with the original owners. Would someone actually think that a person in their sound body and mind would pour thousands into a "piece of junk" like this? Hardly. The same can be said about Lexus. Not all of them experience "trouble free" operation...

    Who are these quotes from ? All are from Germancarfans on this HELM board... And why do I point these out ? Its bcos contrary to the perception being thrown out here, its actually the Germancarfans that constantly harp on RELIABILITY..... How many Lexophiles point out reliability, relative to how many Germancarfans do ? Sorry, the more you guys talk about this insane point, the more it smarks of your defensive aspect of it. Admit it, the two words - LS and reliability - just eats at you everytime... Its time to get over it, pls...

    No one in their right minds will ever say that the cars in this forum are junk and unreliable.... How insane can that be ????? I mean, it simply belittles our collective intelligence if any of us were to insinuate such. What is more pertinent is that the cars we talk about in this forum are ALL excellent cars in their own rights, with their biases....

    Stop harping on reliability, Germancarfans, and the word will soon disappear from our verbage on this forum. In the same vein, pls reduce the worn-out "performance" issue of the S vs the LS. As many of you have agreed, most HELM buyers are not concerned with skidpads or slalom numbers, so why harp on it ?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Stop harping on reliability, Germancarfans, and the word will soon disappear from our verbage on this forum.

    oac - I get your point, but heck, I could pull many posts out the way you did to show that Lexus fans do indeed bring up the reliability issue plenty of times.

    But, beyond that, I think that the Eurocar fans sometimes bring it up just to find SOMETHING to compliment the Lexus. ;) Just kidding, oac.

    Well, OK, let's see if you guys will in fact stop bragging about the reliability, or coming off as superior by calling the German cars junk or posting lemons.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Tony - Thanks so much for that feedback on the Lotus Elise. I keep reading more reviews and watching more videos and they are all exceptional. I'm expecting to drive it in early August, and I'm already thinking that red with a beige interior would be the classic sports car color to get. BTW, I was just told that the '07's will be coming in at the end of September or early October, so if my decision is made in August, I think that it might make sense to wait 60 days and get an '07.

    If I don't like it, the Cayman (or 911) surely makes a lot of sense.
    Thanks again.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,666
    Since when is a car unreliable only if it is stuck on the road? For the record I've seen more S-class cars being towed on flatbeds from people's driveways than any car on the road. I've got plenty of friends and acquaintances that have German cars and many are disgusted with too many visits to the repair shop and high repair bills. These are probably the type of people that are reporting the data that causes the bad reliability scores. None of them - to my knowledge - ever got stuck on the road though one of them had an E-class that had it's brakes lock up and he had it towed to the dealership because he was scared to drive it again. But if it had happened to them that would have been the coup-de-grace. Several of these folks have switched over to Lexus when they wanted a new car or SUV for two reasons - they wanted the reliability and the brand has the cache name these days. Many of these folks have Lexus vehicles (and love them) and a BMW or MB in the same garages now. Oddly none have Audi and don't think or speak of it on the same terms of MB, BMW or Lexus. The other thing I've seen happen here locally is the rich snapping up the IS for their kids and as a play car for themselves. Why? Reliability. Lexus and reliability are synonyms in peoples minds these days. It's becoming as common as the term "xerox this". But in this case those young folks are getting hooked on the car and its performance as well as reliability, all of which become a major enhancement for Lexus as a brand. Dismiss reliabilty all you want with silly thoughts like cars not seen on the side of the road. But that extreme is hardly the definition of bad reliability.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The World Cup final match:

    Germany vs. Japan

    It is possible, though doubtful.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    "Since when is a car unreliable only if it is stuck on the road."

    Because the worst fear people have when a car is listed as below average in reliability is getting stuck in a vehicle that won't start; not an electrical glitch causing the "get service now" light to flash by mistake-the latter much more likely as a real world reliability problem-annoying-yes, major-no. People always fear the worst which is irrational, given the sophistication of today's vehicles.

    Perhaps those flatbed trucks are for regular maintenance service pick-ups or being used to transfer the vehicle from one owner to another.
    Who knows?
    One can't assume just because a MB is on a flat-bed, that there is automatically something wrong with it.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    C'mon LJ, how can the IS "have" the Lexus somewhat better than average reliablity when it hasn't been out in the long-term yet? Remember, the old IS actually scored less than the 3 Series in some quality and reliability tests. The 3.5L V-6 has already seen 7 TSB's(2 of which are major-fuel supply and TCC for the tranny) in all '06 models equipped with it from the Avalon to the RAV4 and IS350. And this proves that it is more reliable than German brands, whose BMW 3-Series has been without recall and scoring huge in customer satisfaction(JDP notwithstanding) in both quality and overall perception?

    The fact that "plenty" of your friends gave up the German cars in lieu of Lexus' is a revolving door. I've got "plenty" of people I know that have come from Lexus and vow never to return, even with the encroaching LS coming, may it be personal or business reasons. Reliablity or not, which admittedly is a Lexus strongpoint, tells most of the story on the youngest brand.

    And for the kids play toy, trust me, the richies will definetely want to cruise around in an M3 or S4 over the unproven IS. Even an EVO MR or WRX STI would be better. Just take a look at some of the forums and online clubs. No IS to be mentioned. Ever. Those four cars have the street cred and notarity to be the car to be seen in. The IS, while fun and fast, doesn't have a manual with the 3.5 for 1(a huge setback for the fast and furious set around here in LI, one of the richest parts of the country), and 2, the IS350 looks like the 250 with bigger wheels, no difference whatsoever.

    BTW: Besides the supposed reliablity and upscale Buick persona, exactly what does Lexus have over the Germans? Oh and the price thing is really stale now. For the base price of an LS, you surely won't get all of the standard equipment most of the Germans have, MB and Audi for sure. For instance, for the supposed innovation leader, why is nav still an option? SO safe, then why do you still have to pay for additional airbags? So adept yet the so-called Euro suspension makes the ride worst and handling that much more unpredictable and lousy, why? I can go on.

    This is in no way a Germancarfan attempt at reducing Lexus as I've said before, finally the company is on the move big time. They have flaws, but don't they all? But this whole thing about Lexus is better in every single way has gotta stop. All of a sudden the Lexus goes from being a cruiser to being the TOP PERFORMER? Very wishful thinking. This on the heels a 3 year old C&D test? A test so un believeably rigged from the begining that it should've never taken place. Why pit a less powerful S430 against the 290hp(then) LS430 when clearly the S500 would've tore it to shreds? It's not MB's fault they still haven't gave the car more than 300-hp like every other carmaker did, oh, 6 years ago. Innovation? Hardly.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    oac - ljflx's post # 16493 is about the "r" word, isn't it? And there are numerous references and suggestions throughout. I'm telling you, my friend, it's impossible for Lexus fans to quit harping on the reliability thing, and claiming that Mercedes are being towed in left and right, and all that baloney.

    I can guarantee you there are at least as many luxury cars where I live as in lj's neck of the woods, and I don't see all those S-Classes being towed, for goodness sakes. It's preposterous.

    Anyway, hate to say I told you so.

    TagMan
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    I dont think anybody in his/her right frame of mind would simply choose a german or japanese car because of their origin . It seems like the discussion boils down to this.

    Germans are great in handling, driving dynamics and powerful refined engines and they have okay reliability for the most part.

    Japanese are great in reliability, craftsmanship, smooth-engines, fuel efficiency (due to relatively less performance) and have okay to good driving dynamics but still a shade behind the germans.

    Both germans and Japanese have two things in common:

    1. Cutting edge technology (germans historically had the edge, but japanese are now neck to neck with germans)
    2. Great Luxurious interiors with warm rich wood and soft rich leather.

    Both germans and japanese are covering their traditionally not so good areas:

    1. Germans are paying more attention to quality and reliability (though mercedes has historically been very good with some of its models)
    2. Japanese are paying more attention to agility and power to weight ratio (look at the new LS and IS, and Infiniti G35 and M).

    So there is this convergence and everybody is now covering everything to be competitive:

    1. Power, driving dynamics, agility
    2. Innovation, technology,
    3. Beautiful luxurious interiors, ergonomics, ambience
    4. Quality, reliability, safety, peace of mind driving experience.

    There are other important factors:

    1. Heritage: on road and on track (germans having a clear edge here)
    2. Consistency in terms of exterior design and being true to your goals.

    My reading is that now and in future, Both asian and euro HELMs will attain parity in most departments retaining their own unique personality, however there will be two areas where they will differ:

    1. Germans will have a SLIGHT edge in driving dynamics due to their autobahn culture.
    2. Japanese will have a SLIGHT edge in terms of craftsmanship and reliability due to their perfectionist samurai culture.

    In the end I truly wish them all the best. May the best HELM win your heart. And I also feel that we should stop fighting and keep our thread in harmony. This will not only help us all it will also help the emergence of new ideas and processes.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Steve,

    That is your best post . . . EVER . . . to this forum.

    Let me be the first to congratulate you. Some may find areas to agree and disagree, but who cares? Terrific post.

    Thank you.

    :D

    TagMan
  • stevekilburnstevekilburn Posts: 359
    Relax Doc, we are all brothers in arms. We are all here to have fun just like you. Keep it up my friend! We need both camps to be strong to have an exciting match.
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