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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Lexican rhetoric throughout the years has suggested that the extinction of German cars is their dream.

    I think most lexicans/germancarfans delight in seeing their favorite brand succeed in the marketplace, meaning gain market share vs its competitors. But most rational lexicans/germancarfans wouldn't want a competing brand to actually go extinct. Competition is good for everyone, in pushing companies to innovate, and in keeping prices from getting out of hand.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,257
    I think that you would be surprised how many LS buyers would go with the S Class if the LS was not available. This is especially the case with the S550. In my case, I would seriously consider the new S550 if the LS600hL was not around the corner.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    But which models in the past 17 years were most affected by the LS? Lincoln, Cadillac, Jaguar and Chrysler Imperial models were most affected, dont you think? Do you honestly think most LS buyers would have bought an S Class instead? I dont think so.

    You're kidding yourself. Lincoln, Cadillac, Chrysler Imperial lost out to imports generally, not Lexus specifically. And I do think that when someone buys an LS, he was most likely cross-shopping a German import, not an American or British marque.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Lexus, the save all? Please say it isn't so.

    The new LS and all of it's iterations are sure to breathe new air for the entire model line. But this talk about it canning S-Class sales has gotta stop. Someone mentioned that the LS went from zero to number one in it's class. Yes that is true, but only MB has the gall to sell on 6 continents, likewise with Audi/BMW. Try Europe, Austrailia, even do a better job in it's homeland Asia, and then it shall be worthy a entrance into the world elite. This is not to say the LS isn't worth it's sales as I think we all agree there, but can't be THEE car. Cheap pricing can only get you so far.

    And we all agree that the intitial LS460 will be a magnificent success, but a complete wash? Hardly. Trust me, MB knows the Lexus strategy all to well. With S-Class offering more powertrain/model combinations than any other car in it's class(maybe in the industry), the LS will had no choice but for low-pricing to be it's saving grace....
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    The business world defines threat as something that will cut into it's profit margins and gain market share at a faster rate than it's own brand. Life's simple. But it seems on this board that the extinction and going bankrupt signs are raised by you and Merc1 the moment someone on the Lexus side raises the words like "hurt" or "threat". Please find a post where anyone said the S (or any German car brand for that matter) is dead or headed for extinction. It's not what we say - it's how you read it.

    " MB knows the Lexus strategy all to well. With S-Class offering more powertrain/model combinations than any other car in it's class(maybe in the industry), the LS will had no choice but for low-pricing to be it's saving grace...."

    I don't disagree with that at all. But another way of saying it is the more optionality you allow the more you have to charge. The further removed from a syndicated product you are the more your costs go up. It's really a business model and mission statement issue. No matter what though the 80/20 rule applies and is more like a 90/10 rule in reality as 80%+ of the sales will still come from 10-20% of the product offering. So in my book if you are buying the syndicayted S-classs you are paying a toll for the varied offerings that MB makes. It's the way business works. If you're a customized shop you've got to get the syndicated buyers to pay most of the freight.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    In fact give me one single Lexus model on the roads today that is a threat to one single vehicle among the luxury Gemran marques (including Audi)?

    I'm sorry. Is it Lexus' job to "threaten" German marques? That would lead one to believe that the German marques (including Audi) are controlling the market somehow.

    I don't see that being the case. If anything, the Germans are reacting to Lexus just as much, if not more so, than the other way around.

    Success breeds arrogance. Most successful #1 companies end up being #2 because of arrogance.

    Is that a vailed GM reference, or a vailed Mercedes reference? You wouldn't make such a complimentary Lexus reference. :P

    And I HOPE Europe doesn't give a whit about the Lexus LS. That only proves their secondary status in the automotive market.

    After what Tiger and someguy with one hip did this weekend, does Europe have any credibility vs. the US at this point? We tell them what's important, what gets done, and how it gets done, not the other way around. ;)

    Thank You

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Where did Lexus sales come from?

    Pretty much the same place BMW sales came from!

    A full 1/3 of BMW sales come from the 3-series.

    The 3-series is a great car! It is not roomy, but it has everything else. Good-looking, fun, versatile, fast, feature-laden, damn near hypnotic to drive, it's even easy to park! And word-of-mouth takes it the rest of the way!

    It offers a combination other cars can't in it's class.

    The Lexus RX300/330/350 works in the same mysterious way. It accounts for 1/3 of Lexus sales, and this will not change.

    It is powerful, roomy, elegant, luxurious, versatile, and reeks of quality! And good news travels just as fast.

    The 3-series and the RX have one thing in common.

    They are so good, you can't walk away from them. They are the benchmarks.

    Lexus has the ES, LS, and RX with built in customer bases. The rest of the lineup falls in around them, until further notice.

    Lexus vehicles aren't the prettiest, or the most fun, but they eliminate the screw ups MORE COMMON in high-end German and American-engineered cars and SUVs. That's all!

    Lexus eliminates the "Bitter Beer Face" you may've seen elsewhere.

    This loyal following has been cultivated over the past 17 years, and BMW has taken a similar path, offering a sporting, yet versatile (4-door), driving experience uncommon in the luxury car market.

    It's not that Lexus will kill Mercedes. It's just that they are the closest competitor as far as "Mission Statement".

    They are trying to do the same thing, but both have very different ways of doing it. And they are starting from different areas of the landscape/timeline.

    Lexus is building a can't lose proposition for themselves.

    Either they continue to absorb the lower-end of the luxury market, and scream value, or increase their appeal and prestige and move upmarket.

    I'd like Team Europe to stand up and say a S550 is $25k better than a LS460L.

    Come on, all together now......

    Ok, is it $10k better? $5k?

    Having stood next to both vehicles at the same time, I don't see how the LS will be a lesser vehicle, dynamically. The only difference is the LS has never been an $80k-90k vehicle, while the S has been for awhile.

    Lexus can change that paradigm, if they so choose. I'd like to see them push the prestige envelope. But they'd rather not mess with the Golden Goose. Can you blame them?

    The LS460 can do it, but Lexus/Toyota won't risk it, and the GS hasn't shown it can stand the $50k ground, so it would cause a chasm Lexus doesn't need.

    I think I've run out of analysis. Maybe.... :blush:

    DrFill
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    With S-Class offering more powertrain/model combinations than any other car in it's class(maybe in the industry), the LS will had no choice but for low-pricing to be it's saving grace....

    Interesting !!!! LS needs a low price as its saving grace ? This is a new one. How many times are we going to repeat ourselves when it comes to pricing. TPS is an efficient system, so efficient that Lexus/Toyota can produce their cars at lower costs relative to the over-priced German labor market. Do you not see how labor costs, supplier costs, and production efficiency play significant roles in car pricing ? Excuse moi.... I am not gonna overpay for a German car when a comparable version from Japan is cheaper and more durable (read: reliable). And since I don't live in my car, the few times I need to drive it, I enjoy driving regardless if its in luxury or sport mode...

    And let's see what the answer to DrFill's question is: Is the S550 $5/10/25K better than an LS460 ? Just look at the feature lists of both cars, and stack them side-by-side and tell us if the S is that much better, or its simply overpriced... which it is...
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    "Lexus eliminates that "bitter beer face" you might've seen elswwhere"

    They sure do. Only to add a face that screams: My parent company still after 17 years doesn't have any distinction whatsoever, including there still conservative and staid L-Finesse.

    BTW: Every car company generates sales in the lower spectrum of the models, so you don't have an arguement after me.

    And for the extra $$$ the S commands, asked the extra 29% of takers(mtd) that that bought the car with an average mean of $92k if it was worth it?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    OAC - it's pretty bad when you need to make an argument to upstage the LS hybrid with a car from the same company that has a 180 degree different mission statement

    I hear you, Len... Like I said, its all about Lexus-bashing.... Buying a Prius is now so mainstream, a status the 600hL will hardly ever meet (sales-wise and mainstream-wise). The latter is strictly a low production high-end luxury atuomobile, not a gazillion production econobox like Prius. At $25K, that's as affordable as most cars in its class. And with hybrids all over the car/SUV landscape, the Prius no longer stands out. Maybe with a 100mpg ! But there is the electric car at 125mpg. Why wait till MY '09 for a 100mpg Prius, when there is a current 125mpg electric car ??? I suppose this 125mpg car would now threaten the 25mpg 600hL as well.... Simply ridiculous line of argument from Dewey and Merc1 !!!
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Success breeds arrogance. Most successful #1 companies end up being #2 because of arrogance. Will TMC remain humble after being number one? Unlikely, very unlikely!

    And how do you know how TMC would act when (not if) they become #1 ? When Lexus became the #1 luxury nameplate in America, did Lexus/Toyota act arrogantly ? And talking of arrogance, which company CEO's have shown the most arrogance to their competition ? That would be those of BMW and MB towards Lexus' upward move in the luxury segment. We'll see who will eat their arrogant words...
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    The labor is the reason the Lexus sells so cheaply arguement is almost older than Yoda.

    Take Jag for instance. The base price of a XJ8 is only 3k more than a LS430. With England's often labor-protected factories and abbriviated work weeks(not by choice), the company miraculously keeps the price of the car down, despite having one of the strongest chassis/frames in the biz. So this argurement is seperating at the seams.

    As for the S' standard list roster over the LS, the S makes the LS look like the just-above-average bloated Camry it is. The S offers more safery equipment, technology, power, creature comforts, and a better overall design than any LS. True, with a $25k price difference, it should.

    And yes, the German labor market is so shrouded with unions it's a wonder anything is built there. But the arguement here is cheaper labor equated cheaper priced cars. Then why does a ES350 cost more fully loaded(51k) than a 330(46k)? A GS V8($63k)v. 550i($61.5) I know the ES is not built in Japan, and that is why the labor arguement is a weak one.

    Japanese cars have always undercut their American and European counterparts in pricing as that was the only way of existance. Reliability was still widely unknown(And you did throw in the R word for the unteenth time, new material please...) In the '80's , when they arrived with full force, Acura, then Lexus, then Infiniti often undercut the comp. by up to 10-20k dollars. See, nothing has changed.

    Just face it. If the LS moved into S-Class price territory, the very existance of the LS would halt immediately as the 3-pointed star carried much weight over the golden(plated) L. And Lexus knows this. If the car was so good, why not price it head-up with it's competition. What's the excuse this time Lexicans.... They're wearing thin, very thin........
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    In sharp contrast, we often forget the Lexus ads that show European engineers disecting Lexus' to see how they can get to their "pursuit of perfection" levels.

    Arrogance? That only begins to descibe the attitude that Lexus has towards the Europeans, altho now it's to offer a true "Euro-Spec" suspension? You've gotta lov'em.

    BTW: Hopefully Lexus won't hide this one out.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    the good Dr stood in the middle of the S and the Camry LS and thought they were equal in styling? Hhhhmmmmmmmm. Methinks I smell rose colored glasses :P
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    If the [LS] was so good, why not price it head-up with it's competition.

    I think you answered it yourself in your preceding sentence:

    If the LS moved into S-Class price territory, the very existance of the LS would halt immediately as the 3-pointed star carried much weight over the golden(plated) L. And Lexus knows this.

    Translation: The 3-pointed star has greater prestige than the "L", so if the LS were exactly equal to the S in every way except prestige, it would not be able to command the same lofty prices.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    First you stated so matter-of-factly: The labor is the reason the Lexus sells so cheaply arguement is almost older than Yoda.

    Then you say: And yes, the German labor market is so shrouded with unions it's a wonder anything is built there..

    Can't have it both ways... Truth is the German labor laws and costs are far HIGHER than comparable workers in Japan. So labor costs, supplier costs and production system... 3 things, not one... three factoids.. why not counter ALL three points ?

    Then why does a ES350 cost more fully loaded(51k) than a 330(46k)? A GS V8($63k)v. 550i($61.5) I know the ES is not built in Japan, and that is why the labor arguement is a weak one.

    Are we reaching or what ? An ES350 versus a 330i ? Since when do ES buyers say to the Lex dealer: "see, for that ES price I can get a comparable 330i far cheaper" ? Need I say more ??? Why not try an IS350 v 330i price comparison ? As for the GS/5 comparison, yes, the GS has grown up and have moved upmarket in price, maybe the Bimmer has remained stale in price due to fear of losing market share, eh ?

    Finally, this is a really good one. You stated that:If the car was so good, why not price it head-up with it's competition. What's the excuse this time Lexicans.... They're wearing thin, very thin....

    Excuse ? Maybe its the Germans that believe their price points should be the benchmarks. Maybe Lexus thinks otherwise. That you can produce and sell a world-class luxury sedan, with ALL the features Germany can put together, and better integrated to boot, for a price WAY below the Germans can dare to price it. If MB could price lower, and sell more, would they not ? Afterall, their profit margin is NOT any more higher just bcos their cars are priced higher. Lexus makes MORE money per car than MB does, despite the higher prices of the latter. Those gadzillion MB variants cost lots of Euros/$$$ to build, and some people gotta pay for them...
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    the good Dr stood in the middle of the S and the Camry LS and thought they were equal in styling? Hhhhmmmmmmmm. Methinks I smell rose colored glasses

    Seeing the color "rose":

    S550
    image

    LS460
    image
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    "As for the S' standard list roster over the LS, the S makes the LS look like the just-above-average bloated Camry it is. The S offers more safery equipment, technology, power, creature comforts, and a better overall design than any LS. True, with a $25k price difference, it should"

    In your opinion of course - and that's one bad opinion. You guys don't get it - the more you post like that the more it is obvious that Lexus, and the LS in particular is under your skin and bothers the hell out of you. It causes total irritionality in your posts. Just look at the ones from the German crowd today from the Prius to the Camry LS. They are downright comical.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    When you discuss German labor costs separate MB from the German crowd. It's been noted everywhere that MB has the highest build costs in the world, notably higher than its own German home grown competition.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    "And yes, the German labor market is so shrouded with unions it's a wonder anything is built there. But the arguement here is cheaper labor equated cheaper priced cars. Then why does a ES350 cost more fully loaded(51k) than a 330(46k)? A GS V8($63k)v. 550i($61.5) I know the ES is not built in Japan, and that is why the labor arguement is a weak one.

    Japanese cars have always undercut their American and European counterparts in pricing as that was the only way of existance. Reliability was still widely unknown(And you did throw in the R word for the unteenth time, new material please...) In the '80's , when they arrived with full force, Acura, then Lexus, then Infiniti often undercut the comp. by up to 10-20k dollars. See, nothing has changed"

    I hope you realize that you just wrote two contradicting paragraphs there. This is what I mean about getting emotional (and irrational) about Lexus.
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