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High End Luxury Cars



  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Honeymoon period. You probably just checked in here between coats of wax and polishing the dipstick, nuts, bolts, behind the license plates and inside the gas hatch. The car looks in great shape. How many miles?

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The 550i is a screaming bargain considering you are getting one of the world's best performing vehicles at under $60k.

    By "auto tran", if I decipher your abbreviations correctly, you are referring to the 6 speed steptronic transmission, by stating it is an option is misleading in that every 550i transmission can be ordered at no extra charge: the 6 speed manual, the 6 speed SMG and the steptronic. All the same: no extra charge.

    Comparing the 550i at $58,500 to the LS at $61,000, I would have to say the LS is quite over-priced.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    That the LS is better-looking than the 750 or S550.

    IYO of course. The LS460 while much better looking than the LS430 still doesn't have the S-Class' flair and when the S is wearing AMG trim the LS460 looks like a throwback. The shape is so unimaginative. It is too slab sided and carry too many Camry cues to be better looking than a S or A8. Now the 7-Series.....

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yeah it was a tough decision for!

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Lol....about 38K.

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441

    As hard as it is to get into this comp thing again, I realize that the LS460 is new enough to deserve some discussion and to be put into a proper and realistic perspective.

    While I make every effort to be as moderate and respectful about Lexus as possible, there is a disconnection to the truth in your earlier post.

    To the typical Lexus "brand buyer", your remarks are exactly as you perceive the situation. But I've gotta tell ya . . . If you step back a notch, it becomes clear that the S-Class in particular had some of the best reviews imagineable . . . consistently I might add . . . and it has already established itself as the benchmark.

    The possibility for the LS460(L) to come along and topple the S-Class was very real, but unfortunately for Lexus, it just has not happened.

    Now, this next model year will be big for Lexus and the LS460. This is completely predictable, and when you start quoting sales figures, they will be initially skewed, as ljflx has also pointed out.

    Comparing the cars themselves, regardless of sales data for the moment, the performance of the Lexus is without any doubt worse than the S-Class. The styling is always subjective, and while the new LS seems to be regarded as an improvement, and I also believe it is an improvement, it is not the level of styling found in the S-Class, IMO.

    The whiz-bang technology may have backfired on Lexus, because in reality, the self-park feature is so restricted to more than ideal conditions, that those conditions hardly exist in the real world. Where do you find an open parking spot that is so huge that you could park a delivery truck, and yet at the same time need help getting into it? It's turned out to be laughable, and the reviewers have caught on to this for what it really is . . . a gimmick. It may have been a good idea initially, but the final feature has turned out to have way too many restricitons and limitations to be very useful. Any gradient, for example, is also a no-no.

    The price will definately be high for the long wheelbase loaded version, and I can see the justification for consumers with an open mind, to snatch up an S-Class and enjoy the real-world benefits it offers.

    So far the S-Class is the acknowledged benchmark. True performance, a purposeful 7-speed tranny (not built as a market ploy to achieve the magic number 8), solid brakes, superior styling (IMO), purposeful features as opposed to gimicktry, and dare I mention the Mercedes prestige.

    I believe that there will be a substantial number of neutral consumers that will discover this truth, and not be swayed by marketing or gimmicks, but by the genuine realities of these vehicles.

    As I have said, and you know this to be true, the Lexus LS460 is a terrific car, and deserves recognition for its achievements. But when we are talking about comparing it to an S-Class vehicle . . . well . . . at that point, the truth just is what it is.

    Hmmm, let's see now . . . similar price . . . LS460L or S-Class?

    S-Class, please! :shades:

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I'm puzzled by your almost condescending attitude towards the new LS460.

    It's as if all it can provide you invalidate as some type of smoke-and-mirrors, "Magic Elixir" hustling, traveling scam show! :confuse:

    Lexus quotes a 5.4 time, 0-60, and 19/27 EPA. These are both as good, or better than the S550. From an engine almost 20% smaller. And still acts like a Lexus under all conditions, or maybe just a little better? :surprise:

    If you can refute these numbers as inaccurate, let me know. "First Drives" and such have always been informal, and nothing to bet the farm on. I can site many instances when a car had a rather poor "First Drive" or test, or the numbers didn't come out right, and then came up big in a upcoming comparison.

    Since the car has not hit production yet, nor has been in a comparison, now is not the time to call the LS on the carpet.

    To show that level of alacrity, and efficiency, the 8-speed is a great value, and MUST work as advertised!

    A full-blown comparison will show us all what an LS460 can do, and if anyone has learned from history, Lexus should get the benefit of the doubt, which obviously hasn't happened here.

    I'd be interested to see how many people on this board have stood next to both cars, at the same time. Not seen them at the same venue, but actually side-by-side?

    I have, which brought about my comment. The 7 and the LS were not side-by-side, doh. :cry:

    If the LS, as you admitted, deserves recognition for it's achievements, than handing over anything to the S-Class is contrary to that statement.

    The truth is what it is? The truth is the LS460 maybe BETTER than the S-Class, due to it's value, looks, and impeccable track record.

    There really is only one way to find out, and we haven't gotten there, yet.

    Betting on Jack Nicholas is always a great bet.

    My money's on Tiger Woods. If it ever came down to it. ;)

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Why my post?

    Read your earlier post today. It literally screams for some balance, which I am more than willing to provide. You essentially threw some extreme remarks out into this forum as bait, and we can see the result it had. So, I see the need for some balance.

    You basically have stated the superiority of the LS460 as fact. The real fact is that the S-Class has been acknowledged as the benchmark. That everyone should agree on. Until the LS460(L) is determined to have toppled it, the S-Class remains the benchmark. It's that simple.

    Perhaps the major comps will come in and will by majority claim that the new LS460(L) is the new standard, having toppled the S-Class, but until that happens, there is no substance to your posting the LS460(L) as the superior vehicle, other than indicating your own early opinion. And if that's all we're talking about, then say so.

    Your analogy of Jack Nicholas and Tiger Woods has no place here. The new '07 S-Class is a brand new vehicle, not an old seasoned one. It also happens to be the current heavyweight champion. You may think you have a great contender, as I also believe you do, but until they are actually in the ring, I am going to continue to call the S-Class the heavyweight champion that is is.

    That's the balance that I thought was needed here.

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,862
    I have never seen a new auto raise such ire before it has even been officially introduced. People are spouting off that this fine auto is nothing but a piece of crap when, in fact, most of them haven't seen it, or touched it, let alone driven it.

    They continue to criticize this auto because it is not something that it has never tried to be. It is not a Mercedes or BMW. It is a Lexus. It doesn't need or want to be anything else. Just accept that and you will all feel better.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    People are spouting off that this fine auto is nothing but a piece of crap

    houdini -

    Where's the beef?

    You show me those posts that you say spout off that the LS460 is nothing but a piece of crap . . . or quit posting baloney.

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Doc and Houdini... you don't like it when the LS is criticized sight unseen, neither touched or driven. Yet it's OK for you to declare it the king of the HELMs etc. when you also haven't had so much as a sniff of it. Go back and read your posts and see if you can comprehend what you are saying.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,862
    Simple deduction dman. The old LS 430 is already a better car in many respects than the S. Better value, better reliability, better resale, better dealer support, better NVH and quieter. It also is a better hi-way cruiser, looks better, and costs a whole lot less. This is just my humble opinion of course.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    So when a review of the new S-Class indicates that it sets a new standard and becomes the new benchmark, we should just assume that, according to you, it ACTUALLY means that the S-Class is the new benchmark except for the old LS430? :P

    C'mon, houdini, you're crackin me up here. :D

    And you still haven't proved your claim that people called the LS460 a "piece of crap".

    Man, I'm good with you loving the LS and all that, but what's going on here? :confuse:

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,862
    OK, Tag, you got me. Maybe I exaggerated a tiny little bit. Just trying for some of that balance. :)

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    Whether the new S-Class is the so called "benchmark" is usually the opinion of biased automotive journalists or is only that an "opinion" and not fact. Generally, I have found automotive journalists to overhype certain brands at the expense of others due to whatever floats their boats. In reality the case is usually not so. Same applies for the S-Class. It is not necessarily ahead of the A8 or the new LS. The 7-Series (well that is not a real HELM), but for the most part, the S-Class achieves what MB wanted it to do. It is not necessarily superior to an A8L for example just because someone says so. Having said that, I find the A8L and the S-Class as the leaders in the HELM in terms of sheer presence and quality (not to mention heritage).
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    OK, Tag, you got me. Maybe I exaggerated a little.

    Good enough. ;)

    Now we can get back to "fair and balanced" (sounds like Fox news) posts again.

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I understand your point. Certainly pure objectivity is a challenge and can be elusive when declaring a "benchmark". There are no absolutes here . . . but there can be a general concensus.

    I generally give higher credibility to the majority, or general concensus, and avoid any extreme perspectives.

  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    This is conjecture and based more on conspiracy theories than actual information. It is a stupid article at best considering some of the moronic comments by the the magazine CAR. It states that Dr. Piech would use the Porsche 25 per cent stake in VW (it is actually at 21 per cent, with an option to take 25 per cent)to launch a bid for the whole VW Group and replace Dr. Pischetsrieder with current Porsche boss, Dr. Wendelin Wiedeking. This makes reasonable sense, but the unknown scribe then loses the plot and suggests that Piech would spin off Lamborghini to protect Porsche. If there is concern about Lamborghini's success then surely it is better to take the profit rather than give it to a competitor? Furthermore, the article maintains that Pischetsrieder is out of favour because of "...his failure to protect VW from Audi's excessive migration into every niche imaginable...someone will have to be to strong enough to check Audi's exuberance which reaches critical mass with the forthcoming R8, a car so evocative in threatens to make Lamborghinin obsolete." This is plain stupid and false! Without Audi's success and ascendence, the VW Group would be in real trouble and the writer obviously does not understand the brand business or human nature I would venture. People who buy Audis do so because they want the brand, and no matter how good a VW may be, it is not an Audi. As you see the A3 is quite a success with its premium position. The person wants to be seen in an Audi. Audi's profit continues to soar and Morgan Stanley has stated that Audi is right on target to meet all its goals. CAR is notorious for its anti-Audi tribble and its kissing a$$ of BMW. So, these strange writings are expected from them.

    Also, Audi has taken Lamborghini from sales of 300 unreliable cars to nearly 2000 in just five years, suggesting that Audi does know something about the supercar market yet alone the its own premium status. Audi Czar Dr. Winterkorn knows exactly what he is doing and VW and Porsche know it.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    After claiming a 5.4 time, C&D actually found it to be a disappointing 6.0 flat.
    I won't be able to accurately determine this for myself at the "Taste", but my 545 is around 5.4, so I know what it feels like to be that fast, and I will be able to tell if the LS is closer to the 5.4 as claimed or the 6.0 that C&D found.

    I wouldn't bet on Jack Nicholas either. He lives several blocks away and has a 23 handicap, but he has won a few club tournaments and wears a genuine Relox to prove it.
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    And there is no problem with that. I can go with that. But, as long as we remember it is an "opinion" and not a fact. For example, everyone states how great a Lexus interior is. I have yet to see reality match that opinion. But then I am bias, so you see how the circle continues.
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