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High End Luxury Cars

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  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    Although I am looking forward to your review of the lexus, and knowing how you feel about the bmw, I really can`t imagine you falling for the M45....Just a different culture.. Tony
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    That statement actually came from the top man himself(Doc Z) on Detroit Autoline on Speed the other day. I didn't really think that MB was actually going to let anyone pass them on this technology.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    other words, Lexus vehicles aren't "better-handling" than BMWs, they are "better-handling" than previous Lexus vehicles . . . which he further explains makes them something to be aware of.

    Good interpretation!

    If Lexus will produce a car that can serious handle and perform like a BMW I would be a very happy camper!
    I am hoping that my next car will not be a BMW. Not that I dislike BMWs but I do like novelty and change when I buy new cars.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Please tell me that you were just nipping at Tag when you said the A8 will take the BMW's place.

    The A8 is still built with the most technology available in it's class. And not just i-Drive.......
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The Lexus 450h came in dead last in an absolutely scathing review-nothing good was said about this vehicle.

    Yeah the last thing the GS needs is more weight and a lifeless transmission to go along with its lifeless steering. The GS350 with its hydraulic rack is a much smarter choice than the 450h. Its essentially just as fast, with similar mpg.

    Next year's Infiniti will be the same as this year's Infiniti. It will be refreshed for the '09 MY, which should mean a change to white gauges, more power for the V6 and possibly a displacement bump for the V8, and an updated interior.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Based on that Businessweek article I think Munich has not a clue ?

    While you sleep, your BMW will scour the Net -- via Wi-Fi and other connections -- collecting, say, 15 minutes of new jazz followed by a 10-minute podcast on the energy industry. It may sound far-fetched, but

    Is BMW trying to out-search Google? Are they trying to out-Pod Apple?

    BMW appears to be going a bit off tangent. Geographically Munich is not Silicon Valley. Industry-wise BMW is in the auto industry and not in the Silicon Valley industry of high-tech :confuse:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    You are probably correct, my friend.

    I did drive the M45 last year and at that time I was not impressed. The car felt heavy compared to the 545, the engine had a roar to it that would prove annoying over time, the steering felt a little phony and I couldn't find a comfortable fit for my left foot. I also didn't care for the wood-looked too thin-almost see-through. That center stack looked kind of weird too. Also the rear tail lights at night make the vehicle look like a pimp mobile. It's more of a younger person's car-35-45 years old max. I wouldn't feel comfortable with the styling. And the gas mileage is SUV-like.
    However, the brakes were terrific-better than the BMW's.
    Needless to say, all criticisms of the M45 were absent regarding the 545, a true masterpiece, seriously flawed only by the iDrive.

    But the M45 keeps winning the comparos, so I will grudgingly take another look next year.

    Looking forward to driving the LS and seeing for myself if any of the criticism I have read are valid. Would like to spend a lot of time with the LS. Perhaps they will let me drive it twice, if it's not too busy, and I tell them I came from far away. (If they read some of my previous posts, they may think that may be a different galaxy!)

    May bypass the GS450h. C&D absolutely tore this vehicle apart in its latest issue. Pretty much what I felt about the GS 430. ( but not the GS 300, which I liked. )
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    There has been such a snowballing of criticism regarding the iDrive.
    Since sales of the 5 Series have been up big time, BMW doesn't have to listen to the uproar.
    If sales slowed down to a crawl, they would listen real well.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Please tell me that you were just nipping at Tag when you said the A8 will take the BMW's place
    The A8 is still built with the most technology available in it's class. And not just i-Drive


    I honestly dont know what it will be? Whichever car provides the best "drive" and not neccessarily the best idrive or mmi system?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Regarding the GS 450h, C & D couldn't stand the constant clatter as the car noisly switched between gas and electric modes-what C & D refers to as a "sonorous racket"-in addition to the usual suspects-the brakes, the steering, the lack of sportiness. What C & D refers to as "Dismal Dynamics."
    Add the practically useless 8 cu ft. trunk to this horrid mix, and I see this vehicle being withdrawn faster than you can say "Accord Hybrid."

    This was as bad a review as I have ever seen on a vehicle from an upscale manufacturer.

    Let's stop all this hybrid foolishness and bring on the cleaner diesel vehicles to market as quickly as possible.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    While I believe that Lexus has BMW in their sights, I only see them going so far with it. This isn't easy to explain, but a Lexus just isn't built like a BMW. BMW's suspension, steering and penchant for manual gearboxes will see to that. Lexus has proven that they'll only go so far in their quest to compete with BMW with the IS350. The car has a killer engine, but fall flat in the chassis and gearbox areas. Ditto (even worse) for the GS vs. the 5-Series. Now since "sport" isn't as important at the 7-Series level they can make more progress against BMW there. If this IS500 does come to be a reality, I highly doubt it will have a stick shift to compete with the next M3 and the RS4, it will be more a C63 AMG competitor than anything else. Lexus can chase BMW in flair and styling and what not, but those core values that make BMW drivers put up with idrive and sometimes wierd styling are safe from Lexus, IMO.

    Lexus simply put just isn't going to build a machine as hardcore as Sport packaged, manual tranny BMW. Also, I really don't seem them making something like an M3 or M5 when it comes to track work. Lexus' reason for being is Mercedes-Benz and it will stay that way IMO. BMW is a different thing all together and they've proven so far that they aren't really serious about tackling BMW.

    What Lexus will do however is pull some BMW intenders or wannabes, not their traditional fan base, unless they make some fairly radical changes to what they think a peformance car should be. This would shop Infiniti (G35s specifically) before Lexus. Guys like Habitat, Blueguydotcom and others on the ELLPS board. You should check out that board, they're a lively group. Ask Habitat who steered him in the right direction concerning his 911. ;)

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    read in Autoweek that Audi, VW and BMW agreed to use MB's Blutec system in order to accomplish selling cars that can pass tough emissions standards like that in California.

    Isn't this grand! The more things change the mroe they stay the same, Mercedes-Benz showing the way!!!

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Let's stop all this hybrid foolishness and bring on the cleaner diesel vehicles to market as quickly as possible.

    I agree, this is just another nail in the coffin for the whole "performance hybrid" idea. The 450h managed just 20mpg, 3 better than the big German 8s. I think trunk space, handling, and a proper transmission are worth the extra few dollars at the pump. The electric motors and batteries add more than 400lbs of weight and a $10K price hike to the GS350, for just 37 extra horses, no increase in fuel economy, and no significant increase in performance. Not to even mention that the steering, brakes, transmission and handling are ruined in the process. That's a terrible deal, any way you slice it.

    C&D's harsh review was completely deserved. The car makes no sense.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "That's why even though the LS review from C&D has been especially disappointing,..."

    Disappoiting? Are you sure you read the article at all? It seems you basically took 2 negatives and spin it round and round to try and make it as if C&D wrote the LS460 is a disappointing product. Considering the ending summary basically says "with new levels of luxury and attention to detail and a more robust lineup, the LS seems poised to stay on top.". That is hardly a *disappointing* review.

    Leave it to the spin doctors to manufacture reviews!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Disappointing in the sense that the braking was 30 feet worse in the new LS than they found in the old LS 430. The word they used to describe the LS 460 brakes was "pitiful."
    Disappointing in the sense that a 0-60 mph time of 6.0 seconds is unacceptable for a sedan with a big V-8.

    Powerful braking and quick acceleration are important to me, and they should be a given for anyone spending in excess of 60 large.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    While I believe that Lexus has BMW in their sights, I only see them going so far with it. This isn't easy to explain, but a Lexus just isn't built like a BMW.

    No explanation is necessary. I understand. Of course, BMW has its own unique, and special, build-quality and performance attributes.

    It's been a while now since I first brought attention to the reality of Lexus placing BMW in their crosshairs. There has definately been a greater acceptance of this now on this board, but there is a need for clarity.

    You might as well get used to the fact that Lexus will continue to strive to compete with BMW, as well as Mercedes, of course. While Audi and others are in the arena, I do not believe that Lexus has directly targeted them as they have Mercedes and now more recently BMW.

    Lexus is certainly not BMW, and with regards to all my posts about this topic, I think this needs to be clarified. I have never said, nor am I saying that Lexus is equivalent to BMW in any way. Lexus has their own credits, and they are different than BMW's.

    While I maintain that Lexus is not equivalent to BMW, I do think they could close the gap, over time. And, Lexus will take some increased market share from those buyers that are not as brand loyal, and from those that do not fully appreciate the special nature of BMW vehicles.

    Additionally, Lexus will market itself to be more of a performance vehicle than it really is. We already see these types of commercials with racing Lexus vehicles and slogans like "you can't lose". There should be no doubt that people will be swayed. I am concerned about some of these commercials, as I find them on the border of misrepresentation. The slogan "you can't lose" is very clever, and almost misleading, IMO.

    None of this makes a Lexus as good as a BMW, IMO. It just means that Lexus can improve the performance of their vehicles enough to satisfy a segment of the market and increase their share.

    The future concern is that Lexus could decide to invest in greater performance, especially if they see themselves making serious inroads into BMW territory. Also, there is the risk, but unknown yet, that BMW will take their latest technology direction too far down another iDrive-type path, and frustrate too many purists with overly complicated technology.

    I never underestimate Lexus, and try not to overestimate them either. For BMW, Mercedes, and others, it would be foolish to ever turn their back on Lexus, however. It would also be foolish to let Lexus overly distract or derail them (BMW, Mercedes, etc.) from their own directions.

    Overall, I have very strong faith and confidence in BMW, and I was glad to read that Reithofer keeps a concerned eye on Lexus, as he should, but mostly has his eye on the future of BMW, where it truly belongs. Let's just hope his vision of BMW's future is 20/20.

    TagMan
  • So far, I am loving the Audi. It rides a little stiffly, but not for a performance car. Also, the V10 is quieter than I expected. It lacks the rumble of the AMG cars. I posted photos of the Audi in Car Space.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Nice, enjoy! I like the water sleds in the background too ;-)
  • petrie3petrie3 Posts: 47
    That's interesting since I understand the Bluetec isn't yet available in CA since it hasn't met CA emissions standards! :confuse: (this is according to the mbusa.com website).
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    They should arrive in California . Although timing is not yet definite. At least dont expect any within a year.
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