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High End Luxury Cars

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  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Also there is not one comparison review between the new G35 and dated BMW330i that indicated the G35 is an overall superior car. Now the new Infiniti G35 will have to compete with a superior BMW335i. I think it is very easy to predict which car will end up being a first choice.

    The last G35 lost one comparo to the BMW in C&D, but won another on price advantage. The M45 has won every C&D comparo against the 5, on a price equal level and on an equipment equal level, so there can be no more whining about the 530i's unfair loss.

    The inevitable G35S vs. 335i test is going to be a very close race, probably decided by 1 or 2 points. If BMW decides to send a car with AS and iDrive, they'll lose. If the BMW comes without them, it may or may not win. It all depends on how much weight C&D puts into the G's interior space advantage, superior NAV, and price advantage.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,781
    Well LG you've done it now. Please prepare yourself for either deafening silence or a firestorm of that spinning and whining you mentioned. I have considered replacing my 350Z with a G35 but just haven't been able to do it.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I have considered replacing my 350Z with a G35 but just haven't been able to do it.

    I'd wait for a few more years. There will be a new Z, a new Supra, and a new S2000. Mazda must have something up their sleeve as well, because they won't want to be left out of the new Japanese sports car fight. The only player not likely to return is Mitsubishi.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,781
    Yes, I read somewhere that the new Supra was slated to start at around $30,000. I would be careful with that one. They may be trading on the name with not much substance. Sort of sell you a Celica and call it a Supra.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yes, I read somewhere that the new Supra was slated to start at around $30,000. I would be careful with that one. They may be trading on the name with not much substance. Sort of sell you a Celica and call it a Supra.

    I'm pretty sure thats about where the old NA Supra started. I don't think Toyota will let themselves get beaten by Nissan. Their 3.5L is a great engine, capable of almost as much power as the old Supra TT. If they bring the Turbos back, 400hp would be within easy reach.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    International companies hire local engineers for all sorts of reasons . . . most important of which usually are:

    (1) lower cost (it often takes a huge pay raise to get people leave home and ship themselves overseas)
    (2) in better touch with local taste.
    (3) political acceptance

    GM and BMW hire a lot of engineers in places like Brazil, China and South Africa. It would be a stretch of imagination to argue that such hirings are proof that "in terms of automotive engineering" the Americans and Germans "are still not up to Brazilian, Chinese or South African standards."
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    While every car company would like to project itself as some sort of enterprise run by engineers . . . in reality engineers are not the most important in running a successful car company nowadays . . . just look at Nissan before the Ghosn era. It was indeed a company run by the engineers . . . into the ground.

    BMW's success if first and foremost the result of very astute marketting over the past three decades. So has Toyota been. Both had been very focused companies until the most recent years. Both are experts at building brand identity. The real danger for both is becoming somewhat of a miniturized (or not so miniturized) GM of yore . . . trying to be good at everything and becoming expert at nothing.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    THe CEO of BMW thinks otherwise. He fears losing his engineers to Lexus or Infiniti. Apparently he thinks his engineers are very talented and BMW cannot afford to lose them.

    I disagree with your opinion that engineers are like indistinguishable units of labor whose hiring is based mainly on cost, an awareness of local tastes and political considerations.

    Personally I think the CEO of BMW has every right to be scared from Toyota and should do his utmost to keep his engineers well compensated and motivated within BMW.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    BMW's success if first and foremost the result of very astute marketting over the past three decades. So has Toyota been.

    Very true!

    But Toyota and BMW are not only excellent companies because of their marketing?

    Toyota and BMW are superlative companies in very different ways. One is an amazing mass producer of high quality standardized cars and the other is an amazing producer of smaller volume premium cars.

    Is BMW and Toyota vulnerable? You bet they are.
    Are they doomed to end up like GM? Not neccessarily.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The inevitable G35S vs. 335i test is going to be a very close race, probably decided by 1 or 2 points.

    I am not going to challenge you on this one since I myself did not test drive the new G35. And no 335i buyer is doomed to have idrive or AS. I chose to avoid those options.

    In USA the G35 is a bargain. In Canada the only manual tranny sport packaged G35 is sold as a coupe M6 for $50,600 CDN while a BMW 335i with a sport package is sold for 52,400 CDN $. I do not call that a bargain at all.

    So we will just have to wait for that inevitable test. Let's just say I am quite confident on which one will win.

    Only time will tell.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I thought I made it pretty clear that I disagree with that perception, in the full unedited post. :(

    That doesn't mean Merc' perception isn't reasonable. It may be exactly how many buyers perceive the LS. That could very well be the word on the street. Maybe not.

    That's old news, as I say again, Lexus is nobody's stepchild. They're large and in charge!

    The Future is here. And it's pretty cool! Let's Dance! :D

    DrFill
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    That's old news, as I say again, Lexus is nobody's stepchild. They're large and in charge!

    Hey Doc aren't you reading my posts?
    The CEO of BMW is shaking in his boots when he thinks of Lexus. He doesnt even think about MB no more.

    No, Lexus is nobody's stepchild. We know that. You know that. Everybody in the Lexus forums know that. And German CEOs know that.
  • mickylmickyl Posts: 14
    I am about to buy a MB S550 brand new with the sticker price of $92,300, for $89,000. I am getting $3.3K discount off the MSRP. Good deal or no? If not, what would you recommend that I negotiate?

    Any comments welcome.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The CEO of BMW is shaking in his boots when he thinks of Lexus.

    LOL.

    He doesn't take them for granted, true, but shaking in his boots? I don't think so!

    Heck, if you read that recent BusinessWeek article I posted (and I know you did) you know that Lexus visits the BMW facility to see how they do things over there. BMW is a rare standard Lexus looks up to!

    Lexus has obviously tried to Bangle their newest models, and have clearly targeted BMW as the ones they would like to beat.

    Imagine that! Lexus visiting, looking up to, copying, and following BMW!

    TagMan
  • reality2reality2 Posts: 303
    It is a strange paradox actually, this Audi in the US vs. Audi globally. By all measure, Audi is one of the supreme Tier ones globally easily surpassing Lexus whether it is product, heritage, and prestige. Yet, in America, Audi (and I will admit it is Audi of America's fault) that they prefer to be the stealth premium brand. In so far as Dewey pointed out in this respect I agree. Yet, in many respects Audi surpasses its rivals as you said. For the higher priced Audis, including the A8 in certain markets, you just cannot get one. AoA creates a schizophrenic mentality in terms of their marketing, but signs point that things are changing quickly in this front. Also, Audi is treated more harshly than other premium brands that seem to be forgiven for their shortcomings where Audi would not. BMW comes quickly to mind. A double standard does exist in this market. To a certain degree that is good as Audi is creating some phenomonal cars now and upcoming. BMW maybe worried about Lexus, a strange notion at best, when it really should be worried about Audi and Mercedes-Benz - with Audi somewhat more - as BMW it is getting beat up in certain markets by Audi. Europe and China come to mind, where this year Automotive News predicts Audi will overtake BMW in Europe. My take is always from a global tier 1 level, and that is where real HELMs come to play, and not just America.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Lexus has obviously tried to Bangle their newest models, and have clearly targeted BMW as the ones they would like to beat.

    Lexus is at odds with itself about beating BMW. They say they are gunning for BMW, but then they are not willing to make any compromise on ride quality, which ultimately means their cars will always lose objective and subjective handling tests to BMW. I think what was said before is correct, Lexus doesn't want the BMW hardcore group that buys only MTs with the top engines, and sport packages. They want to chip away at the 325i and 525i, non-sport automatic group.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    The CEO of BMW is shaking in his boots when he thinks of Lexus."

    With all due respect, Dewey, I really don't think so.
    I think they are more worried about the usual suspects, and now, Porsche, moving a move into sedans.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    First and for most, if you're getting anything off of the hottest HELM going right now, no question, make the plunge.

    $89k seems to be a generous discount given the car that you're about to purchase.

    What options does it have? For a sticker at 92k, there may not be many, as MB's option pkgs. are stupifyingly expensive. But hey, there is enough standard equipment to keep even me occupied.

    As always, I'll tell you like I'd tell anyone else, scramble for the best deal possible. It never hurts to keep juggling numbers. Dealers do it all the time, but this is your money, so take your time and get to the "absolute bottom line".

    You're lucky, as I had to bite the bullet and pay full sum for my S600, but rightfully so since it was a special order. At the end of the day, the total for the special order was $151k, as I added the AMG 20" wheels, tri-Coate pearl paint, paint and leather protection, and Sat.TV pre-wiring.

    In short, don't let this one get away. I'm pretty sure Merc would tell you the same thing, right Merc?!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Sorry. It was very early when I posted that. :blush:
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I don’t think BMW is worried about anything or anyone. They are clearly moving to the beat of their own drum, and that beat is platform diversity and innovation, or at least the appearance of innovation. If they were worried about Porsche they wouldn’t have produced such models as the Z3, Z4, the M varieties of the two-seaters and the Z2 in the near future.

    Worried about Lexus? Ooh no. BMW became the largest luxury car manufacturer during the rise of Lexus, in spite of Lexus. If anything, BMW should worry about the quality its own judgment as an independent thinker. Perhaps they should also worry about not worrying. iDrive, active steering, run-flat tires, seat belt feeders, styling, SMG, hydrogen ICE… questionable “innovations”.

    And as the rising tide of automotive sales has lifted many ships, BMWs impeccable branding has provided the buoyancy. This increases almost exponentially with their aggressive platform diversity in recent years. In addition, xDrive AWD was a booster rocket. BMW ain't got nuthin' bothering them, so it seems.

    BTW, here's a recent interview with Adrian van Hooydonk of BMW. It gives a little insight into their design process. I question their creative approach and creative results but it's a worthy read:

    An Interview with BMW's Chief Designer

    And here's some imagination with the Z2 which may appear in 2010. I actually like the styling much better than the Z4 even though it still has a cartoon countenance. I could see myself tooling around in something like this:

    BMW Z2 concept
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