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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Good point on the 5 vs. 7 analysis. BMW probably thought the same thing when they based the 8 series on 5 series platform, not 7 series platform. There is however a real market acceptance problem when one tries to sell a $70k+ sedan on performance, and expect sales volume significantly higher than the likes of Quattroporte. HELM is somewhat a tough proposition for BMW, which has proven its market prowess second to none with 3 and 5 serieses. The failure of 8 series proved that point.

    Incidentally, trying to expand the HELM portfolio in the other direction, with more carry capacity, like the R class tried, did not prove successful either. Apparently, HELM with decent sales volume at high price premium faces a rather conservative target audience: four doors, full-size sedan, and load up as much luxury as possible.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Oh Lexus, nor BMW or Mercedes ever worries about Cadillac or Lincoln. I don't think they ever did.

    Of course, you are right. I was being sarcastic - certainly when LExus was conceived, there was nothing at Cadillac you would want to emulate, around 1985.... And Lincoln, well that old boxy Town Car was selling like crazy, but it was very old tech compared to what the Europeans had going.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    That fact that the E63 has a HELM price tag does not make the whole line deserve to be on this board. The 190" class is midsize, saying its "close enough" to the 200+ class doesn't count. You can't include the E without bringing the entire rest of the segment in, or at least the A6 (because of the S6, RS6 pricing) and 5 because of the M5 pricing. There's already a board to talk about the E, the LPS board.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Doesn't "HELM" mean High-End Luxury Marque, not sedan? If that is the case then shouldn't this board be about the brands and not just one sedan from each?

    Doesn't "Marque" mean a brand, label etc. etc.?

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yeah I know, I just meant its not a car for this board. That, and "HELS" sounds a bit wierd. Maybe its just me.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Well, actually the entire line, before added options easily meets the over $50K arena, not just the AMG. Heck, the LS430 had a low price with marginal horsepower and minimum performance for years and was included here. It never had any AMG-type version either. Even in its latest 2006 year the LS was only based out in the mid $50's. Just because it is a Lexus, doesn't entitle it to special treatment. Or does it?

    And the HELM designation is just fine. No need to change it.

    Today's E-Class has evolved far enough to more than qualify. Heck, we're talking an E-BlueTec, an E550 and an E63. For goodness sakes.

    Especially considering the LS430 was here for so long with its borderline qualifications.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Doesn't "HELM" mean High-End Luxury Marque, not sedan? If that is the case then shouldn't this board be about the brands and not just one sedan from each?

    Doesn't "Marque" mean a brand, label etc. etc.?


    I remember the discussion as to whether or not Porsche qualified without the sedan.

    Good point.

    Either way, the inclusion of the E has lots of merit. Overall the line-up would inject a healthy dose of added content for this forum, especially considering the terrific nature of the evolved vehicle and its different variants. Read my posts and consider the points I have made. The Host has granted this open window here for this additional German marque, and others have expressed a similar approval of the E's inclusion. Let's not miss the moment.

    How 'bout it Merc? We are close to a concensus here.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well Porsche is definitely a High-End Luxury Marque. They sell high-end luxury goods for sure. No doubt about Porsche's status here IMO.

    Well you know I read everything here so I've read your case for the E, but honestly I don't see it as a High-End Luxury Sedan in the sense that we've used the designation for this board.

    Now I used to raise this very same question along with others about the LS430, which wasn't priced like a S/7/A8 nor did it sell (outside of a lease) for what those cars sell for with the average one going for 60-67K, not the 70K+ where the Germans reside, but then you got the size argument and what Lexus said the competition was for the LS430. Funny thing is that even one of Toyota's execs basically said that the LS wasn't thought of as a high-end sedan by U.S. buyers, after the fact of course!

    Anyway without getting into all that rigamarole about pricing and leasing (why did you waste your time with that?), the E and 5-Series would have to be included too if MSRP is going to be the meter, but I don't see them as high-end.

    I hope this disagreement doesn't shock you...lol. :surprise:

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Today's E-Class has evolved far enough to more than qualify. Heck, we're talking an E-BlueTec, an E550 and an E63. For goodness sakes.

    Thats great. Unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that the A6, 5, and STS offer just as many choices (minus diesel, for now). You can't just bring in the E without bringing them as well. What makes Mercedes so special that they get to bring their full size and midsize car to the HELM board and no one else does?

    And if you bring in those three, you have to bring in the RL, GS, and M as well, as it wouldn't be fair to exclude them just because they dont have UHP variants, because neither do the 7, Quattroporte, and LS.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Don't have much time here but just wanted to say I was at the Taste at Belmont on Saturday. Apparently you guys who went on Sunday had much shorter lines. Next time I will go early, that should solve the problem? I wouldn't have even gone but I just had to drive the GS 450h and I waited 1 1/2 hours to get to it. Then I waited about 45 minutes for the LS 460L. Wanted to drive the S550 badly but that was another 1 1/2 hour wait, lost patience and left.

    All I will say now is that I was greatly impressed with and suprised by the GS 450h. I remember being puzzled when R&T did the comparo with the 550i and one writer chose the Lexus. Now I know why. My comments pretty much mirror what psychdoc said and all I will say right now is that I would definitely consider buying it. Of course, the drive was too short as syswei pointed out but there was enough there to get a good indication. Aside from the space problems and exterior styling my biggest criticism is the light Lexus steering which essentially has more power assist than the 5-series but I think I could tolerate that considering the confidence and it has for a 4100+ lb car. That hybrid drivetrain feels so smooth and powerful, a rocket out of the gate, responsive and steady in corners. On the other hand the LS 460L fell to it's knees (roll, nose dive) when pushed. Can't comment on the VDIM because all of my hard stuff was done while braking.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Wow, those wait times sound awful! Now I know for the future, don't sign up for day one.

    Did you have the 460L in sport mode? When I got into mine, it was set to 'normal'...there's a rocker switch on the console, near the shifter.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You guys have much longer lines than we did here. I couldn't have waited 1 1/2 hours to drive anything, not even the S550! Yes the GS450 was a surprise for me too. Do you hear any clicking/beeping when layiing on the power?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Did you have the 460L in sport mode? When I got into mine, it was set to 'normal'...there's a rocker switch on the console, near the shifter.

    You drove the LS460L? Did I miss what you said about it?

    M
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Did you have the 460L in sport mode?

    No, as you know the drive is very short and I wanted to concentrate on steering, handling and basic power with the default tranny.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Do you hear any clicking/beeping when layiing on the power?

    Can't say I noticed. What I noticed about the power delivery and sound is that I always heard the engine in a steady fashion which kind of surprised me given the big dependence on the electric motor when zooming. I was expecting more of an erratic on/off type of thing. As such, I am very impressed with the technology. I need to get this car in my hands at least for a good 1/2 hour test drive. Too bad it's just impossible at this point.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yeah the seamless operation is what made the biggest impression on me too. I really couldn't tell it was a hybrid.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Well, price wise, the 550i fits right in there with the new LS at $58,500 "unstuffed", to about $77,000 MSRP.
    However, I would not consider the 550i to be anything more than a large sport sedan, surely not a HELM. It's not just the price, but also, the look and the feeling.

    However, using my 545i iDrive controller makes me feel as close to HELS on earth as humanly possible. ;)
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    You drove the LS460L? Did I miss what you said about it?

    I didn't have much to say (in this post) about driving the 460L, other than the steering felt a little light. I just found the drive to be too short to offer great insights, and besides, since I gave up on waiting to drive the S550, I had nothing to compare to.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Have you considered possibly going again? Maybe if you went this Sunday and arrived before the doors opened to fill out the waiver, you could be first up for the S, drive the LS set to 'sport', and drive the GS400h some more. Just an idea.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    All I will say now is that I was greatly impressed with and suprised by the GS 450h. I remember being puzzled when R&T did the comparo with the 550i and one writer chose the Lexus. Now I know why. My comments pretty much mirror what psychdoc said and all I will say right now is that I would definitely consider buying it.

    Why??? Is 0.3 seconds quicker to 60 and 1 more mile per gallon worth $10K more than the GS350? The PCS with radar cruise, 18" wheels, NAV, ML stereo, and everything else the 450h has is all available on the 350. GS450h "perks" are 400lbs. of extra weight to lug around, and a 5 cu.ft smaller trunk. The GS doesn't have much to begin with (12.7). 7.5 cu.ft is what convertibles have. Actually, my XK has more space in the trunk. A Boxster has more total luggage space than that.

    I just dont get it, the 450h makes no sense.
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