Audi A4 2004 and earlier

cupholder1

it varies by state... but in CA, you only pay taxes on each monthly payment, not the entire purchase price.

also, dealers do not necessarily make more money on a lease. Leasing is no different than financing in that the bank pays the dealer for the purchase price of the vehicle, and the customer then pays the bank. However, dealers do find it easier to markup lease interest rates (money factor) because many people are uninformed as to the mechanics of leasing.

nitpicker

Here's one more vote for buying. I buy a car with the intention of hanging on to it 10-12 years, and during that time I save up until I can afford to pay cash for its replacement. I don't have to worry about annual mileage limits, and I can do what I want to the car. I figure if I research the car carefully before buying, I'll pick a car that won't become a headache maintenance-wise and I'll still really like the car at the end of the 10-12 years. I've bought four cars using this approach and have not been disappointed yet.

subframe1

To me the lease-buy question depends not only on factors like how long you plan to keep the car, or how many miles per year you drive (important factors, no doubt), but also on the financial terms of the lease. Heavily subvented leases (those subsidized by vehicle manufacturers), or other leases based on high residual values, can be extremely good deals. On the other hand, a very conservative (from the perspective of the finance company or bank) lease with a low residual, may not offer any significant advantage over buying, even for someone who keeps a car only three years. IMHO today's lease market reflects recent bad experiences banks and finance companies have experienced with leases. Burned by overly aggressive residuals, many banks have pulled out of the automobile leasing market within the last year. Captive finance companies (subsidiaries of manufacturers) have also been burned by pie-in-the-sky residuals. These lessors are stuck with a lot of lease returns worth far less than the residual used to compute the lease payments. As a result, I don't think you are seeing the compelling lease deals today that you saw two or three years ago. Just my opinion.

cupholder1

There are still some excellent lease deals to be had... examples? VWs, Hondas, Saabs...

JBaumgart

Always pay cash, and in fact haven't had a car payment since the mid-80's. When buying a new one I've also always sold my "old one" to private parties, when they are anywhere from 5-9 years old. This has never been a problem as I've managed to buy attractive cars and then have maintained them really well. Planning to keep our '98.5 A4 (and '01 allroad too) for several more years at least - both are very reliable and drive great.

audibon

I couldn't have said it better myself. I heard a couple of months ago that all those BIG SUV's that were leased a few years ago now have very little value due to fuel economy issues and subsequently aren't worth what was originally estimated at lease termination. Many of these dinosaurs are turned in and now sit on lots waiting for a buyer, but buyers are not coming. When the vehicles are turned in the leasing company has to eat all that lost cash. I think in the end there are advantages/disadvantages to each method of paying for a car and it all boils down to what works for a person(s)/family financial situation.
Markcincinnati-I don't think we as consumers are crying about manuals at all. They are a viable alternative to a straight auto or tiptronic. I feel on some vehicles the presence or lack of a manual changes the entire character of the car. If Audi is shooting for the sporting segment of the sedan market then a manual should at least be offered. In my mind that is the key, the A6 4.2 and the entire A8 line aren't even offered with a manual. That would give Audi such a tremendous advantage IMHO when compared with BMW and other luxury lines.
I still think a great car would be an S6 with the 4.2 bored out a little, 6spd, all the goodies and a nice set of brakes and suspension. Crank that puppy out to 400hp 350lbft of torque and watch BMW start playing with it's M5. Especially if Audi sells it for 10-20k cheaper. The S8 is nice but a GREAT S8 would have a bored out 4.2, 6spd, the goodies and 450hp and 400lbft of torque. We all know it could be done, just a matter of wanting to follow through. They hardly build any S8's now anyway so how hard would it be to make Audi commit to such a configuration. Not that any of us can afford an S8! Too bad AoA doesn't have a tuner that could do these mods here in the USA like AMG or Dinan does with the manufacturers blessing. Oh well, we can dream on can't we?

cupholder1

I can't justify the huge price jump of an A4 over the Passat. Can someone tell me what the A4 has that the Passat doesn't?

philltraffa

I bet you have not driven both yet...

phill

cupholder1

I am afraid to

a4_4vince

Cupholder1, I haven't driven any of them. But if you care for manual transmission and Quattro/4Motion, like I do, you just can't have both in the Passat.

Guys, wish me luck because I am going to get serious about getting a silver/onyx(black?) 2002 1.8TQMX with moonroof. I am targeting my purchase date somewhere at the end of December. Should I order it now? Or this configuration is pretty common that I should be seeing a lot of these in the lot. Too bad Portland metro area only has one Audi dealership. I might have to go all the way up to Tacoma or Seattle just to find a good deal. However, I am still wondering if it is a good time to get a car by that time.

Rocco, I have decided to order one with Quattro now. After a long thought I think it should be worth every penny out of that $1750...heheh.

vince...8o)

scirocco22

I'm with Karen and Joel too. I refuse to make payments on a depreciating asset ...but that's just me. I've always paid cash for a car, probably due to the fact that it was drilled into me from an early age that "if you can't pay cash for something then you shouldn't be buying it." As an adult, I now use credit to my advantage but buying a car on time really bothers me. What Karen describes is what I try to impress upon younger people ...instead of making payments to the bank, make the payments to yourself and then go and pay cash for the car. Start the process all over again immediately after buying. Of course, they don't listen but at least I tried ...I guess that's just the way it is today: "I want what I want and I want it now!" Arguably, I suppose that if you can make the monthly payments then why not buy a car on time. But most people are paying way too much in finance charges over the life of the loan simply because they want more car than they can practically afford. It suprised me to find out just how many people are "upside-down" on their car loans. Leasing sometimes is even worse. A lot of people who lease can come up with all sorts of justifications on why it makes sense for them but IMO it's just a bad idea (from an ultimate financial standpoint) for most average joes unless it can be written off as a business expense. I know I'll have many who will disagree with me for I've had many heated arguments about this with friends ...it's like arguing politics or religion --when someone takes a stance and believes in what they are doing, it's difficult to maintain a cordial discussion.

vince-- *thumbs up* ...that's great! I don't think you'll regret it. I talked to my Audi salesman Monday and he doesn't think that the demand or the lack of availability of the new model will die off until March or April so dealers will be able to command a price closer to MSRP than most will like. That's disappointing if you're in the market for the new A4 but we all anticipated this. If you're interested in what Kelly (kk13), James (gymshoe) and I have been discussing in emails about the Seattle area dealerships, email me and I'll forward you the information. My salesman (at Roger Jobs Audi in Bellingham) told me that he works with and gets cars for an auto broker in Portland evidently for the reason you mentioned ...that one dealership there is probably pretty inflexible in their pricing because they have the market to themselves. I suspect that both Kelly and James are getting suspicious of why I'm so strongly promoting the dealership where I bought my car but there honestly is nothing in it for me. I just enjoyed my experience there and had rather disconcerting experiences at the other dealers.

Karen-- Believe it or not, I'm getting more impressed with the Forester the more I drive it. It still feels like an econobox compared with the A4 but the engine is really loosening up and I feel that "glued to the road" feeling maybe a bit more than I can with the quattro ...but as you say, winter will really be the test and I can hardly wait to get both of them out in the snow to really compare. I'll let you know.

--'rocco

black_tulip

What car did you buy that you were happy with for 10-12 years? Just curious. I think my absolute limit would be about 5 years(assuming that's the only car I have) and that's pushing it.

equalizer1

I have always purchased all of my cars, and mileage has nothing to do with it, as I generally put on less than 12,000 miles per year.

If you look at the lease numbers, let's say paying an average of $500 per month for three years, you have paid out $18,000 for an asset you don't own.

I can guarantee you that if you sold you car privately after three years, you will lose much less than $18,000, and still have been able to drive your car as much as you want, and treat it the way you want it to, not the way the leasing company wants you to. It is the same to me as buying a house vs. renting one.

I have never lost in reselling my car privately. Even if I traded in my Y2K A4 right now at a dealer lowball number, I'd still be ahead of the numbers I was given at the time of purchase in terms of leasing.

kmurray66

As a general rule, I think it makes sense to buy (i.e. invest) in appreciating assets and lease depreciating assets. Having said this, an individual's lease/buy decision needs to incorporate a variety of factors (milage etc.)and the terms of the lease. Lets face it, there are some great lease deals and some really bad deals. For example, SAAB 9-5 can be leased for about the same a well-equipped VW Passat despite a $10K differential in MSRP. The total payments under the nationally advertised SAAB lease (all monthly paymnets, fees and buyout at end)equate to $2,850 less than the invoice price of the car.

markcincinnati

Wow! What a lively and thorough discussion on these two topics.

When I said crying about manuals, I meant that I want a manual option available in every Audi -- I agree my A6 4.2 with a 6spd manual would be incredible (and it is pretty good with the tip -- but my wife still calls it an old man's car what with the auto and all).

The milage issue on leasing is the only argument I can find that is compelling -- for me at least, because I want to have the newest technology -- I traded in an A6 model year 2000 for a 2001 so I could have ESP, after having been through Audi's driving school in Austria -- my thought was it was like driving a car with and without seatbelts or ABS -- life is too short to take that chance (IMHO).

My accountant friends say buy what appreciates and rent what depreciates -- milage and/or a "plan" to keep the car beyond 4 or 5 years being the only mitigating argument.

My retired neighbor just bought a new Mercedes and claims he will keep it at least 10 years, my working neighbor just leased a new Pontiac and says 3 years is tops and probably only 2 (he is a brand manager for a fortune 500 company here in Cincinnati and I suspect that means he drives a lot -- but then that wouldn't make sense becuase of the miles -- hmm).

Anyway, I totally enjoyed the many posts regarding leasing versus buying. I suspect I will lease until I retire and then pay cash for a car that I think I can live with at least 5 years.

On the other hand, I heard that Audi has some incredible technology in the pipeline:

active suspension, all electric brakes, additional smart handling systems, new transmissions, improved telematcis, automatic cruise control, brake lights that vary in intensity with the amount of force applied to the brake pedal, accident avoidance systems, tire pressure monitors w/inflation tire compensation devices, satellite radio, and and and. . .

Aw heck -- I can't stand to drive a car more than 2 or three model years old, who am I kidding!

Thanks again.

TTFN

keninplacitas

Well, Thanks folks for the follow-up comments. Although I was not able to get better than $500 off MSRP on my new car (only dealer within hundreds of miles), I think they did me well on my trade-in, (especially considering today's swamped used car market). You may note that there were no additional charges what-so-ever; all I did was give them my old car (A4 1.8TQ with 41,000 miles on it) and an $8,995 check, then drove away happy in my very fine new machine. The dealer, Premier here in New Mexico, is excellent, the sales people are friendly and knowledgeable, I always get a loaner car during service visits (when requested in advance), and the service department is the best I've seen anywhere (they seem to go out of their way to make sure you're satisfied). In other words, negotiated car price is only one part of the formula. By the way, I could have bought any 2001 Audi or Mercedes on the lot for $500 over invoice.

So, in my eyes, I got a good deal, they got a good deal, and the whole negotiation process was friendly.

As far as leasing is concerned, different strokes for different folks. I choose to be able to say, "that car belongs to me".

As far as paying cash is concerned, well, I can do that now, and I did this time. It should be noted though, that although I was brought up by depression era parents who said "if you don't have the money for it, don't buy it", I quickly learned that buying on credit (judiciously) yields a lifestyle that's a lot more comfortable and one hell of a lot more fun.

Sorry this is so long but there were a lot of comments to respond to.

kk13

All good point above, which leads me to my overall summary of the question.

Run the numbers based on the most likely time frame (and very importantly all of the correct numbers such as the money factor, residual, fees, etc) to see the cost of the lease vs. a purchase. Then compare that with how you value the convenience and risk of each option to see what is best for you.

The difference in cost will be the same for everyone, what changes is how you personally value convenience and risk.

nitpicker

My cars, in order, have been:

(1) A 1970-something Ford Fiesta. Don't laugh. I hadn't been out of college long, and at $3900 it was what I could afford. Although it had a Ford nameplate, it was made in Germany and was a tough little car. I put well over 100,000 miles on it, and it was still running well when I got rid of it in 1989. I got rid of it mostly because of safety concerns.

(2) 1986 Acura Integra. I think this was the first model year that the Integras were introduced in the U.S., but they had drawn rave reviews in the European press. This car too had well over 100,000 miles on it when we got rid of it 10 years later. We sold it then only because a fabulous deal on car #4 came along.

(3) 1989 Acura Integra. This car had about 120,000 miles on it when I sold it earlier this year (and bought the A4). It was a gem -- never had any serious problems with it, and the new owner loves it.

(4) 1995 Infiniti G20. This car now has about 85,000 miles on it and has been a great car. It's also been very inexpensive to maintain. This car might end up being my all-time coup, deal-wise. The car was loaded, and the sticker price was around $26,600; I got the car for $18,600 after reading in the Wall Street Journal that Infiniti was offering dealers a $4500 or $5400 incentive to move the '95 G20s. I realize that sticker prices are pretty irrelevant, but I still thought it was a good deal.

So what's next? Good question! I've got about five years to figure out what's gonna replace the G20....

black_tulip

Wow! I wish I had your discipline in buying new cars...I'd be a lot more rich today.

brave1heart

... if you could invest at a higher rate than the rate of the loan? the stock market has done really bad in the past 2 years or so but it still returns double-digits over a LONG enough period of time. If I can invest at 10% and pay 5% on my car loan, I'd never want to pay off. I've never put money down on ANY car I've ever financed.

aegus1

I'm with Karen also.

Another thing to consider about downpayments and financing is your credit profile. I've always been advised to keep my credit cards to a minimum. Although having a card doesn't mean you have a balance on it -- I shows up as a possible liability. A big outstanding loan is an actual liability. These can come back to bite you should you need to go to the well in an emergency.

Home equity loans are very popular. Deductible interest, etc. But putting your home up as collateral for a car (depreciating asset) has never made good economic sense to me. I realize I'm mixing points here, but they both relate to conservative, disciplined, money management.

-Barry

datadog

Mark - I had every reason to trade up to an '02 A6 from my '98 A4, but ESP wasn't even a consideration. I'm still not even sure exactly what it does (please pardon my ignorance). But one question - is there ever a reason I would want to turn it OFF? Obviously they have a reason or they wouldn't provide a switch.

Last comment on me from leasing - 22-25,000 miles per year = no lease. Otherwise, if the numbers work go for it. I am considering de-badging my A6 - would I do that on a lease car??

cupholder1

C'mon... if you were truly a conservative money manager, you wouldn't even be considering an Audi or any similar makes. You'd get a 10 year-old Honda Civic/Accord and drive it for 300,000 miles.

There is also something to be said for leasing at a low monthly clip, and keep the money saved on a cash purchase/large downpayment in a regular checking account or short term CD as an emergency reserve.

audibon

Mark: No, I understand what you meant and I was not trying to put a dig out there at all. I have been accused of the same thing on this board as well. E.G."Oh, so the only thing you don't like about the car is the transmission..." Huh? To me a Driver (or at least an enthusiastic driver who likes to drive fast and under control, maybe has been to driving school) places more emphasis on the engine/tranny/suspension/brake setup than other areas first. It is too important for all of us consumers that want to shift for ourselves (yes, bumper-to-bumper traffic notwithstanding) to have a voice and let manufacturers know we want, no demand equal time, and desire a manual. What's that saying: they'll have to pry my gun from my cold dead hand? Well, they'll have to pry that 5 or 6spd out of my hand given the choice. And you're right we deserve a choice. Nice pick for a dream car BTW, S6 Plus. What is the plus? Almost afraid to ask because I'll want one.

datadog

Mark - I had every reason to trade up to an '02 A6 from my '98 A4, but ESP wasn't even a consideration. I'm still not even sure exactly what it does (please pardon my ignorance). But one question - is there ever a reason I would want to turn it OFF? Obviously they have a reason or they wouldn't provide a switch.

Last comment on me from leasing - 22-25,000 miles per year = no lease. Otherwise, if the numbers work go for it. I am considering de-badging my A6 - would I do that on a lease car??

brave1heart

conservative money management. It's important not to overextend yourself financially. When I say I always finance with no money down, I make sure that I have enough cash in case of emergency. Other things equal, it's an investment decision more than anything else. If you pay cash, it's as if you've invested at a guaranteed rate equal to the rate of the loan you could have obtained. If the rate was 5.9%, it's just as if your money is earning a guaranteed 5.9% a year after-tax. If you finance and keep the cash, you could probably invest it in munies or other safe securities or even take on more risk with stocks, although that would be a different risk profile. The key thing, however, is that you cannot say that paying cash or leasing or financing is always better. It all depends on multiple variables. Salespeople would have you believe that cars are depreciating assets and should be leased. Not true. It's an indirect investment like anything else involving a stream of payments. I tend to hold on to cars longer and put a lot of miles on them, so leasing would never make sense for me (I cannot take a write-off on the lease expense either). So in buying vs. paying cash, it all boils down to where I can get a better return on my money.

markcincinnati

ESP is an accident avoidance assistance system

What ESP Does:

   "ESP provides you with greater control of

   your vehicle when loss of control is imminent.

   They help you avoid obstacles and prevent the skidding that can occur in all

   kinds of weather and on all kinds of roads; conditions in which even the

   best of drivers might struggle to keep their cars on the road.

   These systems have sensors that detect the direction your vehicle is going

   and compare it to the direction you are steering the vehicle. When the

   system detects a discrepancy between your intended path and the direction

   the vehicle is actually traveling, the system will intervene to help bring the

   movement of the vehicle back in line with your intentions.

   Intelligent stability and handling systems intervene before control is lost by

   automatically braking specific wheels. In short, these systems help you

   maintain control when control might otherwise - without such a system - be

   lost."

Note this again: ". . .when control might otherwise - without such a system - be

   lost."

This is from: http://www.abs-education.org/

After spending two and a half days driving with and without ESP (at the Audi driving shcool) -- we had to have it.

An S6 plus was a factory authorized UPGRADE to an S6 from "quattro GMBH" -- one of our Audi school students was "loaned" this car in Munich for four days -- and I got to get in it and I took pictures of it -- after the S6 was a subtle plus -- apparently the brakes, engine and suspension were significantly uprated in performance. You can't buy one in the US.

One more thing, I too never put any money down on a lease and our last four leases were 24, 27 30 and 30 months -- we currently have two 2001 Audis with 30 month leases, my wife has 14 months left on hers and I have 17 months on mine.

datadog

I read the info. on the abs-education site. It's a big help. But the question still nags, and I'm not trying to be a pain, but why or when would I ever disable the esp??

Also, I'm just over a week and 600 miles on the new 2.7T. Any advice on when I can let it loose?? I've kept in under 4,000 rpms for the most part, but this is worse than a kid waiting for Christmas morning.

aegus1

True. Maybe that should be Discriminating Money Management. The Audi was definitely a jump higher in value as far as transportation expenses. Prior cars have been Maxima SE, Explorer Sport (my SUV phase), Celica GTS, VW GTI). But my research on the Audi showed that they hold their resale value very well. I learned that lesson on the Maxima, which has been a great car, but lost considerable resale value very quickly. Resale value is just another piece of the equation. I take good care of my cars and usually get good money for them on the other end.

Your right though -- If it were just an economic issue, I'd be driving a 12 year-old Corolla with 200k miles and a McGovern bumper sticker.

-Barry

gymshoe

don't tell me that! my car is a 2000 Maxima SE!
i wonder how much value it's already lost!

I think the fun factor on the Maxima is pretty high. I don't know how it'll compare with the A4 1.8T. My maxima has about 52 more horsies than my A4 will have. But...we'll see.
then again...we'll see if my wife will let me drive "HER" A4, seeing she knows how I drive my Maxima. ...and yes...I do try to use every last horse in that car.

btr1

there is a way to program the DRL's for USA like Canada....anyone??
also there is a way to keep fog lights on with High Beams?
thanks

datadog

Not sure about the DRL question - if you have xenons I'm 99% sure you can't.

On the Audiworld site I read a detailed procedure on how to wire up the fogs so that they will run with the high beams. I'm not sure if it was in the tech section or in the posts. If it was in the posts it was in the A6 forum. Sorry I can't direct you more precisely, but it can be done.

Give us a post if you try it, I'm considering it myself.

keninplacitas

IMHO, if sport and fun are amongst one's primary reasons for buying the smaller versions of the Audi, Saab, BMW, or Mercedes, the car should only be purchased with manual transmission. Driving the twisties with an automatic takes all the heart away from the driving experience. ... Comments anyone?

As I understand it, you would, for instance, want to disengage ESP if you had to 'rock' your car out of a 'stuck in the mud or snow' situation.

02a4curt

I will concede that if sport and fun are one's primary reason for buying small Audi's, etc.they will want a manual trans - if you concede that other people might prefer an automatic and there primary reason is to own a sporty, fun to drive, quality built automobile. To each his own....

datadog

I had my '98 A4 2.8 with the 5-speed for four years. I was ready to buy the new A4 with the 3.0 and was excited about the six-speed. At that point anything but a manual wasn't even a consideration. I never drove the six-speed, because after seeing the '02 A6 next to the new A4 I decided I was ready for a larger car (damn, turning 40 causes problems).

There are 5 serious mountains between the dealer and my office, and on the way back I thought that as much as I enjoy running through the gears, I was losing some time in the curves on the clutch. After test driving the tip in the A6 I thought - "geez, if all I was doing to shift was pushing little buttons on the wheel I could really plant this left foot and jam these curves". So although working the clutch will be missed, I think there will be other experiences to make up for it.

I bought a 2.7T with the tip. The 1-2 upshift bugs me, but in 2-5 it holds where you want it with the touch of a button. Since I have not yet broken in the new A6, I have not run it hard through the twisties with the tip. Admittedly, if the same A6 had been sitting at the dealer with a six-speed, I would have bought it, but I couldn't find a six and didn't want to wait four months or more. I think I am going to like the tip after my experience so far (678 miles). And this is from someone who has always had a manual, and lives in the twisties with no four lane roads and no stop lights.

btr1

to turn on DRL's Audiworld Link:

http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/3060.phtml

aegus1

James,

My Max is a '94. Nissan came out with the '95 very early (maybe March of '94). They stripped the base car down and did away with the fully independant suspension. So the '95s seriously undercut the cost of the '94s (by base price). That along with the major restyling made them a depreciation nightmare that first year. All of that aside, it's been one of the best cars I've ever owned. I also much prefer it over the '95 that replaced it, for many of the reasons already stated. At 123,000 miles it's still going strong, burns no oil, and doesn't look like a beater.

A coworker has a 2000 Max and its often the preferred ride when a bunch of us are going for lunch. My Maxima is just a bit larger than my A4, but I believe there's a bigger difference with the current Max and a 2001.5 A4. I like the current version. It's definitely a step in the right direction for Nissan as opposed to those 'in-between' years. And Nissan's definitely going after Honda/Acura in the horsepower race.

I haven't quite decided what to do with the old gal though. I have the Thule rack on the Maxima for the bikes, etc. I probably should have sold it already, but just haven't gotten around to it. I usually sell privately versus trading in.

Back on the theme of depreciation though, German cars are notorious for retaining value, as are sports cars, convertibles, etc.

a2374

Looking for your valuable input on a comparison of the 2002 models from BMW (3), Audi (A4), and Lexus (IS300).

Click Here

Thanks,

--Adam

merckx

and this has never made much sense to me,but the reason there is a disabling button is that the car is more "tossable" without it. You can set it up to drift a bit in cornering. The auto press admits this is almost never the fastest way to corner,but they typically say it's more fun. I can't imagine driving my car with that much abandon,as much as I love cars and driving. Esp will not allow a car to "fishtail";it keeps it tracking straight through corners.

lauk0dg

I agree with Ken that the official purpose of the ESP button is that you can rock the car out of snow, mud, whatever, if Quattro doesn't help. If you have ESP on when you try to rock your car out, the car will limit the amount of wheel slip and you can't rock yourself out. What Merckx pointed out that you can drift around the corners is the "by-product" with ESP off.

Oh driving a stick shift on the 1.8T turbo engine is FUN FUN FUN. Test drove the Tip on the 1.8T engine before I got the car and I didn't even think twice to get the Tip. My Accord was an automatic and even though all the rental cars I got for business trips are automatic, I just miss driving the stick and the brisk response you get from shifting the tranny yourself than letting the computer doing it.

Billy

markcincinnati

My first Audi with ABS was a 1987 5000 CS turbo quattro -- it had an off on switch for the ABS.

The reason was deep snow and gravel -- and at a relatively slow speed.

The theory was that at less than 20km in gravel or deep powdery snow, ABS would actually lengthen your stopping distances because the natural build up of a pile of snow or rocks under the wheels as they (while locked) was prevented.

The off/on switch was first (in my 1988 Audi 80 quattro) made to automatically turn ABS back on at speeds above 20km, then by the time I got my first 1990's quattro, was eliminated altogether (apparently customers were not able to figure out how to use the ABS switch properly.) Moreover, Audi was still stinging from the unintended acceleration issue which as I recall was ultimately determined to be "sport" pedal placement (which permitted heel and toe driving, which also apparently Americans don't do or "don't get").

The posts above regarding when to turn off ESP are correct. And, at the driving school in Austria (remember it is on ice), the instructors would tell us to turn off ESP when we wanted to "induce oversteer or understeer." Now, in a controlled enviornment such as a timed road rally when "traffic" is not allowed, turning the ESP off, but NOT ABS, would allow a deliberate fish tail to be induced which would force the car to "take a corner" faster or at least more sharply.

The timed runs with and without ESP were an interesting test of human versus computer. Truth be told, ESP in the hands of the best drivers in the controlled enviornment could be bested by the human brain and brawn. But the ESP is tireless, it never forgets, it is always on, always adaptive ever vigilant. Most of us mere mortals are not able all the time to beat ESP. The truth of the matter is that the ESP generally beat the mere mortals -- but it does take some of the "fun" out of driving (at least in a controlled environment, fishtailing, 360's and power slides are fun -- less so in trafiic here in the "real world.")

Remember, ESP+ABS w/brake assist is STANDARD on all Audi's now. Add quattro and a sport suspension and (IMHO) a manual transmission and you have the ingredients for maximum fun, control and safety -- in the places where the vast majority of us drive the vast majority of the time -- the public highways. Indeed, ESP cannot be fully turned off according to Audi -- it still has a OMG feature ("Oh My God") which remains active even when the switch is pushed -- our A4's had a special hidden switch that would even turn off the OMG feature -- talk about fishtailing, understeering and all out 360's -- you have no idea how incredible this technology is until you drive first with it completely, then without it partially, then without ABS, then without ABS or ESP completely.

It is a humbling experience.

ESP + quattro + ABS w/brake assist can: apply the brakes to one wheel at a time, you cannot do this. The only way you could do this is if there were four brake pedals -- plus a clutch, plus an accelerator -- well I only have two feet and two hands -- it is just not possible to have this much control.

The ESP can determine to apply one (or more) brakes, cut power and simultaneously and instantaneously switch to brake another wheel and permit power based on very rapidly changing circumstances. ESP will, like Arnold in Terminator 2, do everything it can to save "your" life.

The addition of active suspension and all electric brakes which Audi, Mecedes and others along with Bosch are testing as we write will, of course, add yet additional capabilities to cars -- and of course it will hit cars who have higher limits to begin with and whose drivers presumably have more experience and training in driving than your average American sedan driver.

Which is a pity -- it would seem to me that this wonderful technology should be in Mom or Dad's Dodge mini-van FIRST, but we do have the trickle down effect here in America -- and the rest of the world for that matter.

Anyway -- net net: ESP seemed kind of interesting and a "someday" technology -- until I spent two and half days with Audi in Germany and Austria getting schooled in what I now look at as this marvelous vital technology.

markcincinnati

One of the other web sites mentioned that the one two upshift can be changed (eliminated?) from auto to self controlled -- but cautioned that the one two upshift was there for a reason (too much torque in the 2.7 and 4.2 and that only the 2.8 had the 1-2 and 2-1 shift completely manual (until you reached the rev limit, of course, when it shifts at redline).

FYI

gymshoe

I know exactly what options I want on my 2002 A4. I just can't figure out color.
Brilliant black?
Ebony?
or Silver?

I've been pulling my hair out over this.
My wife said...she wants silver. silver silver silver.
But now...she likes both silver and ebony.
Which I have no idea what the difference is between ebony and brilliant black.

Can anyone help?

datadog

Just traded my '98 A4 on a new A6. The A4 was brilliant black. It didn't take much to make it look dirty, but I thought it was worth it because it looked soooo good when it was clean. I guess I am still of the same mindset, because I was between ming blue and silver on the new A6 and picked the dirt-showing blue. I just felt that over the next 3 - 4 years I would be happier with the blue.

One note - not just the dirt, but the scratches and swirls show up much more on the dark colors, especially after a few years. One factor may be how long you plan to keep the car.

If you are 50/50 between the silver and a dark color, I would go with the silver.

Good luck, and enjoy the new A4!

keninplacitas

I had the Pearlescent white on my last car. The pearl effect yielded a lot of compliments on the color. I'll bet it would make black look very classy.

datadog

You sure seem to have learned a lot from it, in addition to improving your driving skills and having a pile of fun.

I have a much better understanding of ESP since yesterday.

With regard to the 1-2 upshift, it's my understanding that 1st will hold if you squish the throttle to about 80% or better. I haven't tried it because I'm still below the magical 1,000 mile mark. But unless I'm in a real hurry I generally don't tach it up too much in first and then run it out in second.

bluetrane

Hi all. I'm a little late on the buy/lease discussion, but my main question is about the Audi Premier Purchase deal. Has anyone done this? It seems to be like a lease, but the payments (at least those estimated on Audi's web site) appear positively philanthropic. I generally look askance at deals that seem too good to be true. What about this one - what is the catch?

kk13

I just bought a Silver 2002 A4. I love the look of dark cars but I hate cleaning them. So since I would not clean a black car often enough to keep it looking good, the silver on average looks much better. I don't mind when the silver gets dirty since it doesn't show much. If it were black I would feel force to wash it.

nobee

Just bought an A4 from Auto-Exchange (Kaiserslautern, GE) for $25k (includes destination+prep fee). Quattro, Steptronic, Moonroof, cold wx package, leather steering wheel, and the Bose with less than 50 miles on it. The dealer told me this particular car received some damage while being built on the assembly line ( i'm assuming most production plants do end up with a few vehicles being dinged up or so...). No mechanical damage at all. Everything has been fixed and was sitting at Ingolstadt for a year or so before the dealer got its hand on it.
$25K....could i of gotten a better deal back in the states? I know it was a decent (not great) deal but need someone to affirm that I done good!all comments welcomed!
-brian

cupholder1

do you like your car?

if yes, you got a good deal.