Ford Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis

marshal1

However, this in no was actually affects MPG. It just allows more gas into the gas tank. The original thread was about increased MPG using premium vs. regular gas. Unless my ignorance has again gotten the best of me, please explain how getting an extra gallon of gas in the tank will allow for better MPG?

ehaase

I have a 1989 Crown Victoria with 146,000 miles. Because of a promotion at work, I will need to drive a lot more than I do now, so I will probably buy a new car within a year. It seems that the newer versions aren't as durable as the Crown Victorias of the late 1980's, even though the cars use the same platform. The old 302 seems to be a better motor than the 4.6 OHC. I may consider a Buick LeSabre because of the reputation of the 3.8L V6. Are any owners of 2001 Crown Victorias/Grand Marquis happy with the cars?

427435

Come on marshal1, how do you calculate gas mileage? Most people "fill" up the tank and drive until it needs "filling" again. Then they divide the miles driven since the last "fill" with the gallons that were needed to "refill" the tank. If the tank was really full at the beginning of the check but ends up 1-2 gallons short on the refill---presto, good mileage. Of course if the tank wasn't really full at the beginning but the car/tank is sloped so it gets fully filled at the end of the check, the mpg isn't so good!!

The only way to really check mileage is to keep a log book and do it over several fills and 1000-2000 miles.

bruneau

Using premium in these cars is merely a waste of money- they can't adjust to it. Moreover, Ford specifically advises against it since it may cause drivability problems- premium is more volatile. I have an unrelated question: my GM has the handling Good year LS tires. I don't like them and am looking for something quieter and smoother. Any ideas?

427435

I've been using BFGoodrich T/A's. They're quiet and give a lot better traction in the winter then the original Michelens (sp?). Their wear life is a little less at 45,000-55,000 miles, however.

kinley

The Towncar came with Goodyear GA tires and there were four flats in 60,000 miles. Michelin X One is on the car now and 33,000 miles later, not one flat. Tire pressure maintained at 35 lbs.

kingfishgus

I had a 92 LeSabre 3.8, basically the same as the new ones, and have a 93 and 01 GM. The GM has held up much better. The LeSabre is a smaller car, which some like, and it rides well empty. The standard suspension bottoms out with 4 Medium to large adults in it, without luggage. Standard GM suspension is much better handling weight. LeSabre has a great airconditioner, GM is very marginal as are all Fords. Some people don't like the seats in it, but again I don't like the GS seats in the GM. Gas mileage on the LeSabre was 21-22, mostly highway, and on the same trips my 93GM 4.6 gets 24-26. I've checked the mileage from fillup to fillup for 105K miles on the Lesabre and for 120K miles on the GM, so it is accurate. I had several problems with the LeSabre transmission (after warrantee)which were costly. The GM needs fluid changes at $175 a pop, but at least it hasn't failed on me like the Buick. 6 months ago I bought a new GM, so that should tell you something.

graybee

Purchased a 2000 CM AS I/24,000 i. one month ago as a "program car" from a Lincoln-Mercury dealer. Front end makes squeaking and creaking noises when going over even moderately rough road surfaces. Sometimes I hear a rattle like a loose or broken shock; had the suspension checked twice, the second time by another LAM dealer who reported "nothing broken or loose" (this dealer lubricated chassis again). Noise seems just as bad. Car handles and rides fine, but it sounds like an old car and it is very annoying.

tbear503

After doing considerable research, I chose Yokohama Avid Touring Radials... Got them at Discount Tires for about $68/each. Tire rack (www.tirerack.com) rates them very highly, and they were in the top 5 sellers for GM's at Tirerack....They ride better than the GY-LS I had and... are so quiet that I actually stopped the car, when first put on. They are amazingly quiet.
Check them out.

Oh, yea, ALL cars have their problems, I just think back on Gen Motors cars relatives have had and think I'm lucky with my Merc GM. Brother has a 99 Concorde that is almost deafening at speed window seals falling off doors, etc.

rea98d

I've heard of this on MN-12's, but this is a first on a Crown Vic. Anyway, the usual culprits on a T-Bird are worn ball joint or the bushings on the upper control arms. Try checking those out.

franbeck

96 Mercury Grand Marquis - Difficult to keep car in a straight line. Car sways to the left or right. -- Recent regular maintenance could not find problem. Had new upper & lower ball joints replaced. Has anyone else had this problem? Thanks

maxethan

This is my first post to this discussion thread. I want to thank all of you regulars' who make this a great information site to visit. I spent about 6 hours, in 2 days, reading every single message from the very beginning. I read these to educate myself quickly with these cars. I was deciding whether or not to buy one (98 CM)that I had run across, by chance. I decided to buy it on instinct and common sense, using the backup of the info collected here. That was December 2000 and I bought the car. I could not have made a better decision! It is a 1998 CM AS d. green/prey leather all options (except performance handling). It had 11,700 miles and I paid the asking price of $14,700. This was wholesale as I remember, and the car was (and is) mint. The gentleman who owned it never had cause to bring it in for anything but oil changes. I changed the warranty to my name and confirmed it has no warranty service history. The local dealer did find a recall due. It is "00E11 , On-board diagnostic system". hats all the printout says. Does anyone know what this means and why they said it expires with the 3/36,000 bumper to bumper war.? HERE IS THE KEY! I would like to know any things you folks can think of that I should have checked/fixed under the bumper to bumper warranty. I plan to get the ESP plan for 6/100K. I'll Probably select the "Extra" plan with the $50 deductible. I know there are things only covered by the original warranty like exterior trim, cosmetics etc. I don't know what else to be focused on, that is crucial for the 3/36,000. Things I noticed that currently need attention. I remember someone having big problems with the drivers door not staying open on slight grades. My door won't stay open if the grade slope exceeds 5 degrees! It doesn't bother me much but my wife always has bruises on her arm from it! I recall it not being repair able on the other persons car because of hinge construction limitations. I think they got to swap the car out for another. Anyone else had this? I also had the dashboard/cowl whistle (at high speeds) that others talked about. I noticed it above 75-80 mph and it would stop if I turned off the climate control system. This problem has seemed to go away. I haven't noticed it in months. I think it was a heater door/seal vibrating in the center dash and it broke in or something. Let me know if I am wrong, I have not been able to make it happen any more(85mph+). The premium radio cassette playback is lousy. Lots of hiss, not balanced, can hear electronic whine of the engine, or electronics, when speed control is engaged. I have tried many tapes, including premium metal chrome. These tapes playback superbly on many other cassette stereos. The chrome strips above and below the side windows have snow flake shaped discoloration spots on them. As if the chrome has oxidized under the clear coat. I can't think of anything else worth mentioning... I am dreading the lack I will get, going in to log these problems at the dealership, on the last day of the 3/36,000. The heck with them, it's covered! I absolutely love the car and always plan to drive one. For your demographic curiosity, I am 6'6", 215lb, mid 30's, wife, kid. I think this current body style looks great and it is the best overall value of almost any other sedan.

maxethan

Dear franbeck,
Obviously the alignment is key, but the ball joints should have prompted a good one. I saw a similar problem once, caused by seperated belts inside the tire. Try swapping front tires with rear. Also has the car ever been repaired from a rear end crash. Sometimes a car's crooked rear end can be way out of alignment. The rear of such a car can track 4-6" off center compared to the front end. This can also create poor overall tracking. You could try bringing the 'toe in' to the limit allowed (front of tires closer than rear), to try and get better self centering of steering wheel. Good luck.

yonsei93

I have a GM 99 LS w/39000 mi. My dashboard is beginning to rattle when running over little bumps on the road. What is the quick fix on this? Brakes are squealing when stopping. Went to dealership but dealers said the brakes are new. Went to Midas for 2nd opinion. Tech said the brakes will last for another 8 months. But brakes are still squealing!! Anyway to eliminate the squeal???

dmers

I can verify the GM is a safe car in a wreck. 5 Years ago my wife was driving home in a 92 GM on a highway at about 60 mph when a fool kid, not looking pulled out right in front of her. The air bag and seatbelt saved her; she just walked out the passenger door. The boy miraculously lived while being thrown out of the Van with a ripped off door on his side.
The police said our car with a "frame" underneath saved her. Her only injuries where a broken toe from slamming the brakes so hard by reaction, a belt on chest soar and now a permanent fear of any car coming up to an intersection while I drive.
That is the only car we buy as of now, and the ride can't be beat.

kinley

Check out 90's Thunderbirds on the Coupe menu.

Hacksaw

To maxethan:

You might want to look at third-party warranties in addition to the ones offered by Ford. They tend to be *much* less expensive, offer varying terms and coverage levels, and can be used at virtually any service station (not just a Ford dealership). Two sites to check out are: www.warrantygold.com and www.warrantydirect.com.

To rea98d, the guy with the noisy front suspension:

Try greasing the hood latch. It sounds silly, but it quieted down my front-end squeak when I first had my car. Also make sure the steering stops are well lubed, else your car will make grinding noises when the wheel is at full-turn.

maxethan

Just for those of you interested in FoMoCo Extended Service Plans. I had a heck of a time with ford on the phone this morning. They said it was to late to get the new car ESP plan, or get any warranty service, because my warranty expired at 12:01 AM today! The in service date was 7/10/98. Someone tell me of a dealer that delivers cars at 12:01 AM on the day you pick one up. Ford direct was quite stupid to take this hard _ss position when I was willing to give them even more money! I ran down to the local dealer, got a quote of $1699 for the same exact ford ESP (ford direct was $2345) plunked down the plastic and that was that. The plan I got for $1699 was the "premium" esp plan for 6years 100,000 miles w/ $50 ded. The "extra" plan was $1399 (w/$50 ded.). I figured what the h_ll, the car was such a value (purchase price wise) why not get the cradle to cript warranty. Alas, while in rome...

maxethan

hacksaw, oh well to late. I will take a look at the sites you mentioned if ford gives me any nonsense about this deadline thing. thanks again for your advise, I rember you being one of the great members (in my opinion) from last December. I was so frustrated with this stuff today I just thought, screw it, I don't have to spend a month of Sundays researching every possible option and cost. I get complaints from my wife about doing that to much as it is. I played average Joe consumer and purchased what looked good based on only what I did know. I have had third party plans before, and it can be a pain getting a dealer to go through the extra steps it takes to deal with these company s. My extended chrysler plan saved my but big time with my 91 caravan. Zero hassles when getting service and it payed off with a factory tranny replacement, rebuild motor and more! take care hacksaw.

smmsmm

I just purchased a 94 CVic with 140,000 miles for $ 3,450. I drove the car home from Cleveland
OH to Atlanta GA (by way of Raleigh) which was about 900 miles. Not one drop of oil seems to have been lost/burned during the entire trip. Car is in immaculate shape, is an LX with full leather and 10 CD changer. Now that I have paid cash for this one, I can sell my '99 LX and lose it's $ 400.00 / month loan payment. Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I have two questions:

I have heard of 2 schools of thought on the changing of fluid, etc on the transmissions on these cars. One says to "change fluid/filters every 30,000 miles", other says "if you haven't changed it, just leave it alone and make sure to keep it topped off, being careful to ALWAYS use Mercon such and such". The car could not possibly be in better shape after 140K miles so all indications are that it was VERY well taken care of. Should I get the transmission "serviced" or should I just leave it alone, my recollections are something about changing viscosity of fluid by changing it....... or something like that, any comments welcome.

Question 2: The car has a 10 CD cartridge unit in the trunk with a little control panel mounted on the dashboard to the left of the radio. The owner's manual makes no mention of this little control panel and only refers to controlling the CD player via the existing radio controls. I tried it the way the manual says, without results. Any suggestions as to where I can get help with this, I can just imagine walking into a Ford Dealership and asking them to look at my sound system (although, it is a "Ford / JBL sound system").

My guess is that the car was driven nearly every day and was very well taken care of. As I said, I put 900 + miles on it bringing it home and it felt just about as nice as my 99. Also, has the nicest feature a car can have, or not have....a loan payment every month.....although I suspect I'll be visiting my local auto mechanic buddy more frequently.......Thanks in advance for any input..... or any other comments on care/feeding of a 94 CVic with 140K miles !!!

sullivanmdsp

Can anyone tell me how to tell when the transaxle is full on a 1993 Crown Victoria? The old rule of thumb was to fill it until it ran out the fill hole.

harrys2

Can somebody please help. I just purchased a brand new FS 10 compressor and now the mechanic claims it is the wrong one. This is the same mechanic that told me to buy the FS 10 compressor. Can someone advise me what compressor I need for my car?

rea98d

smmsmm, If you don't flush and refill the transmission (make sure they get out all 13 quarts, including what's in the torque converter), you will get an awful shudder from your transmission. Definately do this, and use Mercon 5, or else the fluid will break down.

sullivanmdsp, you should have a dipstick that doubles as the cap of the transmission fill hole, and it should tell you how much transmission fluid you have. If there's no dipstick, you're looking at the prospect of putting the car on a lift, and playing with a little drain screw on the bottom. Somehow, the stream coming out indicates how much fluid you have. And to get technical, Crown Victorias don't have a transaxel. Except for maybe Corvettes and a few exotics, transaxles are the exclusive domain of FWD cars.

kinley

As to the CD, you may have an after market Sony, not a factory unit. Crutchfield sold many of these and a 'phone call to them would be of some help. The fidelity of the factory tape is better than that of the add on Sony due to using the FM circut of the in-dash unit.

maxethan

smmsmm, quite certain you have an aftermarket changer kit, like i have in my van. these work (as mentioned by kinley) by sending the cd music to the radio's antenna. the car antenna plugs into the cd changer harness and the cd changer harness plugs into the radio antenna socket. when the cd changer is powered up i lose my reception (cd changer disonnects car antenna, you should notice the same thing). to hear the cd changer i must tune in a specific frequency (think it's 87.1 or something close).---------
try this smmsmm, power up your cd unit by the external pad, then play a cd. you should see the cd track# and minutes counting down in the extternal pad display. while it's playing you should hear mostly static on all local fm channels. now scan the fm band, start low or auto scan the whole range. your radio (or you) should stop on the one frequency that is playing the cd! I find the quality to be good on my changer. most factory car speakers and radios are no way near cd quality. these changers put out about 90% of the cd signal, which is pretty good(they are limited by fm reception limitations) you would need a fabulous factory system, or spend some decent cash on an aftermarket system, to notice and appreciate the difference in sound quality between the fm modulator system and the direct slave changer(which are generally more money). most people i know would not notice, care or be able to tell the difference. the major downside to me (for the fm system)is the little extra pod stuck on the dash, and having to use redundant sets of radio controls. hope this clears up things...

smmsmm

Absolutely fantastic, thanks for the info !!! CD changer works great when, as you suggested, I tune FM to certain frequency, would have been nice to have it on my just completed 900 mile trip but, thanks again for the info !!!

xstthomas

I noticed a shake in my 93 gm hood. Didn't think anything of it until I found a rivet lying on the rad shroud. Checked & it was from the hood latch & the other 3 of 4 were set to pull out as well.
(this 93 has NEVER seen snow ice salt etc. & there is absolutly no rust but does have 205,000 km & is in perfect shape otherwise - no collisions). The next day it drove it slowly to the Ford dealer with the loose rivet in my pocket. Told the dealer the problem & mentioned that there may be a Ford warranty repair because this was plainly an assembly/design failure (as I'd read in Edmunds that hoods flying open on cv police is a listed failure, gm is the same car). The dealer said that they never heard of this failure & that I'd have to pay for it & go after Ford direct. Several calls from & to the dealer later about what the repair is for I pick-up the car after work & the dealer presents me with a "no charge" bill & new "pop" rivets are installed on the catch.
vin # 2MELM75WOPX671251 93 Grand Marquis LS

jtw229

Thanks to those who responded to my comparison inquiry. I will wait til December to make a decision on whether or not to go from the Camry to a CV. I have a few other questions, however.

1. I have seen a 2001 CV (not an LX) advertised at $19500. The base invoice from Edmund's and Cars.Com is $21740 with destination. Could this indicate desperation on Ford's part to sell these cars? I worry about resale value down the road. Should this car be ordered with at least the P and H package along with ABS/Tract Control options for better resale in 4 to 6 years?
2. Does anyone know if the CV will definitely undergo a change for 2002? I'm not comfortable buying a first year model Toyota much less a Ford.
Any feedback on these topics would be appreciated.

ngold

considering purchasing an AS Grand Marquis, or a S. My concern is about the brake capacity. My son drove one and thought the brakes were marginal. Your experiences? Thanks. My other concern is reliability. I want to drive this car with few or no major concerns for 100,000. Otherwise, I'll purchase a Japanese product. Your thoughts and experiences would be much appreciated.
Norman

bruneau

The Camary and the CV are very different types of cars. If you want space and cargo capacity, then it must be the Cv. The Camary is a fine car, but a different size. Get the CV or better yet the Grand Marquis(nicer interior decor) with the Handling package. The rear drive cars are useless in the snow without traction control. For 2002, the steering of the CV and GM will be improved, and a new bucket seat with floor shifter will be available.

rea98d

Oh, yeah! That's gonna add another 100 hp and shave a good three seconds off youre 0-60 times right there!
My, what passes as a sports package these days!

Hacksaw

You can't always believe the advertised price. $19.5k sounds way too low. My guess is that it already includes a $2000-$2500 customer cash rebate. And Ford is not desperate to sell these cars. They have as many orders for these things as the factories can handle. The waiting time when I got mine was over 4 months! A lot of the manufacturers are offering steeper discounts now because of low interset rates and the sluggish economy.

I've heard the CV/GM will be getting a makeover for the 2002 or 2003 model year, but I'm not sure which. Either way you won't be buying a "first year" model. The core car will remain the same, except for some sheet metal and some other minor adjustments. Side-air bags will probably become standard. That kind of thing. Besides, any "new" stuff on the Fords is usually "tested" out by Lincoln for a few years prior.

Get ABS, T/C, and P&H because it's the right thing to do. Yes, they will increase resale value. Dramatically if it's the difference between crashing and not crashing. Marginally so if the car is older with a lot of miles. :-)

yonsei93

Help!!

I have a 99 GM LS with 39k miles. Whenever I accelerate the car does not go at a fast rate. My bro has a 96 GM with 96k miles and that thing just flies down the interstate!! What are the things that need to be checked?!!

Also my rear view mirror with compass and temp is displaying a "C" what is the quick fix on this?

johnbono

Check under the car. If you're car has one exhaust, and your brother has two, that is the difference right there. HPP cars have 10 more hp and 3.27 or 3.55 gears. The granny single exhaust cars run 2.73, and do not have the get up and goe that comes with the shorter gearing.

sergeis

My friend has dual exhaust CV, and I have single. He has driven mine, and I have driven his. If there is a difference you have to run those cars side-by-side to notice. After all, you get ~5% increase in hp, so it would be only few tens inmprovement in 0-60.
You will loose, however, a couple of mpg's with dual exhaust, that is easy to notice. He never had more than 24, and I typically have 26+ on interstate.

I don't have ABS nor traction control. I can still drive in snow, never had a problem, and we do have snow in Iowa. Saying that RWD with no ABS is useless in snow is not exactly truth.

maxethan

You are right, having "old fashioned" rear wheel drive does not make a car useless. I believe that comment was made more with the ever increasing population of Guppies in mind (gullible yuppies). The kind of people who stamp on the gas pedal when the car is slipping in snow on a hill. They never had the luck of having an intelligent, versatile driving teacher. They think they will melt their way up the hill to the mall! These type are dangerous to us, it's safer for all of us for them to be in FWD. I did just fine with my 1982 chrysler imperial (Frank Sinatra Edition!) during the late eighties in Boston (4000lb RWD). Tires and skill are the key ingedients in foul weather driving. Also the HP difference between you and your friend is not much of a spread but the lower rear end ratio is going to make a decent difference. If you smash the gas pedal inside each car, they will 'seem' the exact same. That is because they both accelerate hard and the engine noise is almost identical under full throttle, this creates the perception that they are equal. Now it is your turn to give back to this forum and prove the differnce (or lack there of). Meet with your friend and do a "Safe" comparison, at a deserted light or something else you won't get in trouble for. You could also do a timing of each car. Stop each car at a given starting spot and time how long it takes to get to a chosen close landmark. Use a digital watch (with a stopwatch function) that you allows you to press the button without looking at it. Don't do anything 'Guppy-ish' Use safety and caution. You can devise a completely safe and legal acceleration test with a little thought. We would all love to here of the results. Cheers Maxethan

harmar

They're still selling okay. A buddy ordered a CV with options he wanted in May. Its build date is late July. Ford cut off orders later than usual, so they must have been getting them in sufficient numbers to justify the delay.

kinley

Perhaps the 'C' on the thermometer indicates Centigrade rather than Farenheit. Maybe the owner's manual will advise where the switch is located to change back to Farenheit. Other wise take the C X 1.8 + 32 = F.

bruneau

Some of us are too sensitive. "Useless" is an exaggeration, but the point is correct. Every reviewer agrees. This yuppie started driving cars in the fifties in northern Wisconsin. In any case, get traction control: it is silly not to do so. And no, bucket seats and a floor shifter will not increase performance, but some people will prefer that. Sales? The GM is enjoying its highest sales in a decade.

sergeis

Did I say those are the same? No, I said you have to drive them side-by-side to see the difference, they FEEL pretty much the same. It was response to yonsei93, who clearly FEELS huge difference between his GM and his friend's one. That cannot be dual/single exhaust, unless someone here is too sensitive.

The most important for safe driving are driver's skills and driving style. If you are jumping from line-to-line, turn into wrong lanes, never use turn signals, and show disrespect to other drivers in other ways the traction control and ABS are not going to help you much. I agree that it is not a bad thing to have, especially if you don't "feel" your car. Though I remember that statistics few years ago indicated that there was no difference in accidents for cars with ABS and without. Explanation was that those with ABS 1) don't know how to use them (release brakes when ABS kicks back), and, 2) relay on ABS too much.

And remember, american cars are useless. They are not reliable. Buy japaniese one, every reviewer agrees. Don't be silly. And don't buy those useless small cars, they offer little protection even with ABS. Buy the biggest SUV you can. You will be safer, and who cares about those useless people in useless small cars with no ABS?

bruneau

I love my chestnut metallic Grand Marquis, and so does everyone who rides in it. No Japanese for me.

mariio

I have a 1998 Crown Vic. with 100k miles.
Everytime I accelerate or I make a sudden stop I hear a strange friction noise in the lower back part of the car between the carpet and the chassis, like friction with rubber with metal....
I greased the exterior area where the noise is but I keep hearing the same noise what can I do.

houndog

Have a complete rear brake inspection done asap, also check the rear suspension completely, look for problems with the air bags, if you have them. If you have the metal rear springs, the problem is probably somewhere else. If the problem seems to be a vibration at speed, have the driveshaft and U joints inspected - could be worn out. Good luck with the car.

graybee

You were correct, hacksaw, thanks: the noise problem was due to the hood, not the suspension. The L-M shop mgr. demonstrated this by driving the car over the same rough road surface with the hood closed (noises) and open (no noise). He lubricated the rubber stops and their resting places on the underside of the hood (this is routine maintenance). This helps somewhat, but he pointed out that since the hood is slightly lower than the front grill-cowling, the stops themselves could be raised a bit to provide a more "relaxed fit" for the hood. Thanks also to rea98d: mgr. thought control arms were OK.

Hacksaw

If you have the rear air suspension, try turning it off (switch in trunk) and see if you can still hear the noise. I don't know a lot about how that works, but it might be a good idea to let the air springs "deflate" every once in a while.

You might also want to bounce the rear of the car to see if you hear the noise and perhaps better pinpoint where it's coming from. My guess is it's something simple, like a tailpipe bushing or some such. Have you taken it to the dealer?

My 98 has the air suspension and I carry a lot of weight in the trunk and haven't heard any strange noises from back there.

heydave_

Has anyone ever heard of a Jerry Chip? A replacement engine control computer chip, I presume? Anyone have one? How much do they cost? Is it worth it? What do they do to gas mileage? Where can they be purchased?

Thanks.............

ron35

heydave - I believe you are right about the jerry chip. If you go to www.crownvic.net and click on 4.6 Tech Talk there are a host of messages dealing with the jerry chip that I am sure will enlighten you. Hope this helps.

Ron35

martens

First of all,thank you to those who answered my previous question about a "hopping" rear end on our '98 GM. Our current query is about the headlight lenses, which are beginning to haze up. What's the cause and cure, if any? Thanks again!

Hacksaw

I have the same problem with mine. It doesn't hinder light illumination at all, but I like the crystal clear look and my lenses have a slight "fog" to them. It's a minor detail, but still noticable. Unfortunately, lenses are one of the few parts not covered by my extended warranty and I remember them as being expensive to repair. For me, not something worth fussing over.

But if you're still in or close to warranty, get them replaced.

kinley

has been known to be polished out with a mild wax cleaner and finished off with car wax. Road film gets on the lens just like it gets on the finish.