Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

orwoody

Here is a link I picked up on one of these forums a while back. The Car Connection has photos and blurbs on highlights from the major auto shows. Currently they are covering the Detroit and LA shows.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5650&sid=173&n=156

orwoody

I checked the Motorweek website today because I saw their review of the 2004 GTP on Saturday. Most of their comments are posted on the "car keys" link under the "inside track" at their website. I don't know how long they post each of the articles for, but I suspect they change weekly so I cut and pasted it here also.

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/carkeys/

 

"2004 Pontiac Grand Prix

3.8-liter V-6 w/ Eaton supercharger

260-horsepower

$23,000 - $30,000

While trucks are king, General Motors is making it clear that it's still a car company at heart, as its prepares a complete overhaul of its mid-size sedan lineup. First out of the gate, the 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix.

Looking nearly identical to the G-Force show car, the '04 Grand Prix is largely all-new. The biggest visual change is the lack of body cladding, and the cleaner and sharper coupe-like profile. The wide track look is more hunkered down, especially in the top line GTP trim.

While the base GT is powered by a carryover 200-horsepower 3.8-liter V-6, the GTP ups the ante to a 260-horsepower 3.8, a 20-horsepower gain, by way of a new Eaton supercharger. For maximum grip, a new Comp G package adds lightweight 17-inch wheels, V-rated tires, retuned suspension, Magnasteer II steering, and StabilTrak. To manage power to that grip, Comp G also adds TAPshift steering wheel shift pedals for the sole transmission, a 4-speed automatic. Unlike some Formula-One-style pedals, TAPshift requires the driver to take control. It won't upshift for you.

The new Grand Prix provides total performance, including unmatched sedan versatility. The split-fold rear seat is huge, if spartan, and when combined with the available front folding passenger seat, allows objects up to 9 feet long to be hauled with the trunk closed. Rear doors also open nearly 90 degrees so oversized cargo can be loaded from the side. With this car you may not need a minivan or SUV.

And when the 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix goes on sale in April it will have prices that put an SUV to shame, from about $23,000 for the GT, to around $28,000 for the GTP. Even with the Comp G package, the sticker should still be under 30-grand.

And when you compare the new Grand Prix to mid-size car favorites Accord and Camry, it simply out classes them in everything from velocity to versatility. If this is how GM plans to revitalize its car business, the Grand Prix is a great start."

dindak

I'm glad to see the added versatility of the GP. Our 98 was terrible with only a small fold down slit between the passenger seats for skis. I remember that being one of my biggest problems with the car and part of the reason I bought an Intrigue when we totalled it.

I wish the new GP had dual zone a/c though, I would miss that feature.

orwoody

I wrote Pontiac as I was also wanting to know if they were going to offer auto/dual climate control. Currently it was not on their options list but may be added. I also asked if the white face gauges were going to be an option, but they are not at this point.

Maybe if enough of us write in(from their website) they'll add it?

evandro

I do recommend those with some spare time to check out these videos from Detroit Auto Show about future products:

- http://webevents.broadcast.com/gm/concept2003

- http://webevents.broadcast.com/gm/cadillac2003

- http://webevents.broadcast.com/gm/atpv2003

- http://webevents.broadcast.com/gm/chevrolet2003

oldsman01

Anyone know if pricing on the 04 GP is available online anywhere? I haven't seen one in person, but from pics I've seen I think Pontiac is headed in the right direction. If the pricing remains reasonable, the new GP might make for a good replacement for my Intrigue.

montanafan

The pricing is scheduled to be released in February about the time production starts. Watch http://media.gm.com for the announcements of base prices. Then will be a couple weeks before the online providers have the info.

orwoody

I did quite a bit of surfing trying to find pricing estimates, with no luck. montanafan substantiates the same timing that I found on a fleet services website....the only thning I can add is that GM guaranteed the fleet managers that pricing would be a 3%(at most) increase over 2003. The rub is that the 3% applies to comparable vehicles and not new equipment or options. I also asked the fleet sales manager at the dealership I've been working with and he has not seen anything yet.

evandro

I've read somewhere that the fully-loaded GTP will approach $30000... :^(

montanafan

2003 GTP full equip (not the Limited Edition) already has MSRP of $29,705. As I recall, when Bonneville was redone for 2000 the same equip price difference was around $700. So that would fit in with the 3% estimate for fleets. Big difference will be that the 2004 will not have $3000 rebates.

richm4

Based on past history, do any of you think dealers will be allowing GMS pricing on the new 2004 GP immediately after it debuts?

beach15

That's actually good--no rebates. When a car can sell without needing the company to put out big "coupons" on it, it is not only more successful, but retains a higher resale value down the road.

That's why so many domestic vehicles have such low resale values. They have to take too big of a chunk out of the price when new, and a few years down the road, it's worth pennies. Rebates are terrific when buying new overall, but they do have setbacks.

graphicguy

I just came from the Detroit International Auto show....it was shoulder to shoulder regardless of the day or timr of day it was. PRobably a good sign for automakers.

They had 3 '04 GPs that you could sit in and touch. This car looks better in person than the pictures already shown.

The interior is a major upgrade over the old one. I liked it a lot.

The engine, in blown format, is the "new series III" version of the 3.8L. Noise and vibration has been given an upgrade. HP is 260, torque is 280. The outside is a "smoothed" version of what we've already seen.

Looks like a winner. I actually liked it better than the GTO.

In general, the crowds were milling about the "Big 3". Honda looked to be empty by comparison. Mazda made a big splash by letting us sit in the pre-production version of the RX8. It'll be a winner.

Nissan had crowds around the new Maxima ("Butt ugly") and the 350Z.

Ford made a huge splash with the new Mustang.

Long and short of it, Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mazda were the big winners. Toyota and Nissan were moderately interesting. Honda/Acura areas were like tombs in comparison. There were a lot more people milling about the Camry than the Accord.

If that's any indication, Honda will be doing an update for the new current Accords and Civics in pretty quick fashion. The Element matches the Aztec in "ugliness" and looks cheap.

dindak

I like the new Accord a lot more than the Camry. Camry is just ugly.

I doubt the new GP pricing will be much different than the old. A GT should be in the range of a V6 Accord or V6 Altima. The GTP should be in the Maxima range.

Toronto show is just a few weeks away. Can't wait to see this new GP.

johnclineii

Understand, though, that Nissan has indicated that the Maxima will be going decidedly upscale, both in interior, marketing segment and style AND price.

I imagine a loaded GTP will be upwards of $30,000 US dollars.

We will find out soon.

graphicguy

I don't know that I could be happy in either a Camry or an Accord. From the reactions of people at the Auto Show, I was surprized at the lack of interest in the new Accord given its redesign and its perch on the best seller list the last few years.

In fairness, there werern't many people milling about the Taurus, either (but that's an older design).

I suspect that Pontiac is trying to appeal to a broad audience in snagging those that may be looking at a "CamCord" or Taurus on up to those looking at a Maxima. The Maximas interior is upgraded to the point where it could be an Infiniti. The front end looks like it was "in a fight and got it's nose pummelled".

No pricing on the GP was announced but the "party line" on the floor from GM people was "GP prices will remain stable", depending on model. I think the GTP will come in under 30 (as the current one has an MSRP of around $28K loaded). Throw in the typical GM rebates and the inevitable dealer discounts, I suspect a GTP could be had for somewhere near $25K with HUD and Stabilitrac.

No doubt it will handle better and be faster than what's comparably being sold by Nissan, Honda or Toyota.

graphicguy

I forgot, the new blown Series III 3.8L will now run on regular gas (with no significant loss in power). GM said that running it on premium will extract more power, though.

orwoody

On gas - I always ran regular(87 octane at sea level) in my 2000 GTP with no problems. I asked before I bought the car and the dealer told me that the blown 3.8l would run regular. I looked all over owners manual, gas cap and GM sites and never saw a requirement to run premium. Point me in the right direction if this was bad info.

On pricing, I'm betting a loaded GTP will push $30k, and adding the Comp G package will push it over. I base this on current pricing and then extrapolating $2.5k to $3.5k for the Comp G goodies. (That would mean ~$31k-$33k range for MSRP which is not an unreasonable estimate based on what they want for the Limited Edition Package which has no performance items.) I think they need to watch it as that pushes up closer to $34k-$35k which will get one a loaded G35 sedan/coupe or BMW 3 series and you can get a manual shifter. Perception and reputation as they are, I hope Pontiac is not loosing site of the portion of the potential GP buyers that want the top end performance. (Pontiac's specified competition is Intrepid, Accord, Maxima, Altima... I think buyers of the GTP, GTP w/Comp G moves into a bit different buyer territory.)

The PDX auto show starts Thursday and I'm told GM was planning to have both the new GP and GTO there. I'm excited to go and see all these new rigs in the flesh. I saw some pics of the new Maxima and it has a bit of a Passat look to me. I haven't cared much for the styling of the last couple of Maximas. I'll take a close look at the new Accord at the auto show, but from the pics and commercials the new "sleaker" lines, pointy lights and taillights give me an impression of "cheaper". I'll reserve final judgment until I see it in the flesh.

dsm6

is pushing their luck. Hard.

montanafan

Page 6-4 in the 2000 Grand Prix Owners' Manual, under the heading of "FUEL". "If you have the Supercharged V6 engine (VIN Code 1), use premium unleaded gasoline rated at 91 octane or higher."

ruski

on the MotorWeek TV they said that the GTP Comp Edition would be under $30K.

orwoody

Thanks montanafan, I traded the GTP but went through my owners manual several times page by page(yeah I'm a owners manual geek when I get a new rig.) and never found anywhere that it specified an octane. It did refer me to check with my dealer for appropriate fuel for my location. The car ran great and apparently was not compromised.(no problems in well over 20k miles, dealer did all service and gave me much better than trade value even though I was getting my new rig about $250 over invoice.)

ruski - I saw the Motorweek episode and remember they mentioned their impression for pricing. However when I look at what a loaded 2003 GTP is and what is added in the Comp G package.... I'm skeptical it'll stay under $30k. We should know in a few weeks. If a loaded 2004 GTP w/Comp G package can be had for under $30k I think Pontiac will really be onto something.

johnclineii

The 2003 Pontiac GTP recently tested by The Cincinnati Enquirer listed at $30,300, and it did NOT have all available options...

Just a thought.

evandro

FWIW, just to be in the safe side, I'd go for premium fuel. It's about $0.20 more, or roughly $150 more a year. Over 7 years, that's $1000, still below what a new engine would cost...

evandro

My brother was at the Detroit auto show and told me that he was disappointed with the interior. It was an improvement over the previous one, but the competition has raised the bar.

He said that most new mid-size cars out there make use of soft plastic everywhere, not selectively anymore. This selectivity is what turned me off about the Altima, among other things.

I skipped the GP once for the interior materials once, although I've always liked its styling, handling and performance. The new one is even nicer inside and out and I was envisioning it as my future ride...

I'll hold final judgment until I do a test drive myself though.

ruski

They probably tested some special edition (for example Daytona series have always been considerably more expensive because of the Daytona decals)

At $30K one could easily go for something more luxurious - Acura TL(-S), Infiniti G35...

Is Pontiac getting the same disease that struck Volkswagen? (let's just make them more expensive and people will think that they are as good as Benzes)

evandro

Couldn't agree more with you.

I am very fond of cars, but I can't convince myself to pay more than $30000 on a car out of the door.

I want to buy more and more of a car for less and less, not the other way around. The last two cars I've bought were from GM, mostly because of the value I perceived in them, meeting my needs of performance for the cost I was willing to pay.

graphicguy

I read the Cincinnati article, too. It said that it was a "special edition". So it was listed as over $30K for the decals.

I can only go by what the GM representatives told me at the auto show....that is a loaded GTP would come in well under $30K. Don't know if that includes the "comp package" or not, though.

Looking at what GM has been doing the past 18 months or so, the "discounted purchase price" would probably be somewhere around $27K.

Considering that they are still holding to "sticker" for an Accord around here and Camrys selling for over $30K for a V6 XLE, the GP GTP looks like a bargain.

orwoody

I think part of the problem is that GM(and others) have been offering rebates and discounts for so long, we've gotten used to the selling prices being considerably lower($3k-$7k) than the MSRP. The biggest question mark is if GM will/when offer any discounts/rebates on the new 2004 GP? A loaded(sunroof, leather, HUD..) 2003 GTP MSRP will be over $29k. Add the Limited Edition pkg and wheels and you are about $31k. However GM is giving a $3k rebate and most of our local dealers are also knocking off another $1k-$2k to get buyers in. Adding in any rebates form a GM credit card - one can swing a sweet deal.
I'm guessing that GM won't offer any rebates on the new GP for the first 6 months.

evandro

I guess you're right. Factoring in the rebates, discounts and haggling the GP should remain a good bang for our bucks, at least by year's end.

dindak

The new 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix sedan will begin at $21,760 MSRP for the GT. The higher-powered Grand Prix GTP starts at $25,860 MSRP and the GTP equipped with the Competition Group suspension package will cost an additional $1395.

Decent I think.

orwoody

I added some info on the Pontiac Grand Prix 2004 Redesign Questions & Comments forum.

vcjumper

04 GP

regfootball

"Now, I've been one of the strongest supporters of the 3800 engine, but even I may have to admit it may be nearing the end of its remarkable 40-year lifespan.

It has never been an aurally-pleasing engine. Given that this is a Pontiac, some exhaust note is part of the deal, and it's rough, raucous.

Even the torque, usually this engine's strong point, seemed a bit overwhelmed by the Grand Prix's weight.

The supercharged version is predictably stronger and shouldn't be affected by the thinner atmosphere, but even it runs out of puff at much over 4500 rpm."

vcjumper

To me the most disappointing thing I read was the accomodations for rear passengers.. How do you engineer a fairly large 3500lb 4 door sedan with cramped rear quarters?

orwoody

The article was interesting, however sitting in the back seat on the 2004 at the auto show, I thought it was better than the current GP. So "cramped" is sort of relative. I for one don't plan on spending much time in the back seat.

regfootball

Wonder if the epsilon based Grand Am won't end up having more space in the back.....

Maybe Lutz approved the 2004 Grand Prix and is giving it a 3 year cycle. Maybe they will have an all new one by 2007.

johnclineii

My question is this. I was also looking at a Mazda6. Does anyone here think that Toronto review was inaccurate, and if so why. Right now it looks as though I will test drive a GTP when they come out and keep waiting on the 6 Hatch!

dindak

I read that review yesterday in the paper. I was surprised how negative it was.

I think Pontiac should have made the 3800 an SE and the supercharged version a GT or GTP. Given the horsepower today's V6 sedans have, there is nothing GT about a 200 hp 3800 powered GP. I think GM needs to get a new 240hp+ ohc engine in that car pronto. That said, I still like the looks of the car and the interior is fine. Don't care about back seats as I don't sit in them. If they sell (as i suspect they will) the GT for the price of a 4 cyl Accord, it will sell fine.

I will be taking a very close look next Monday at the Toronto Auto Show. Are you planning on going?

vcjumper

I will head there, not sure when yet..
Back seat is a concern for me because I end up with adult clients/customers in there pretty frequently.

dindak

I'm taking Monday off. I have 1 vacation day left from last year that I have to take or loose.

orwoody

The review is rather negative and has a few disagreements with the Motorweek review in january. I think it shows that opinions vary greatly and what you are used to driving can influence. I didn't think my 2000 GTP ride was nearly as jolting as several "performance oriented" competive autos I've been in. Some folks I know think a harsher ride is better. I was a bit smitten with the Mazda6 (like johnclineii) and plan to test drive the Mazda6, 2004 GTP(w and w/o Comp G), and maybe one or two others back to back so I can judge for myself which one works the best for me.

wpbharry

Hi all. I'm really just "looking" at these postings, since I'm really interested in the upcoming Mailbu and am a regular in those forums. But since you guys are up first (this week, no less, it begins production), I'm curious to see how Lutz's first new baby fares. Also, the new GP is produced in Oshawa and we get good old Kansas City, as you know, the site of the last GP production, which was mediocre. As far as prices, remember to factor in resale value. I too have a GM card (with $2500 + on it in waiting), but when I see what my old '98 Malibu is now worth (with low miles), I have to wonder. Will compare the new Malibu with the Accord V-6 a year or so from now and the math could get tricky. Good luck with the new GP. Hope it's at the Ft. Lauderdale Auto Show in mid-March. Bet it'll be there. We shall see...

dindak

We have an Intrigue built in Kansas and it's been very good over the almost 3 years we have owned it. My brother in law has a GP GTP he bought last year and it's been just fine also. Keep in mind, GM has improved all around and with this new Malibu design that has many fewer parts, you should see some decent quality.

ruski

that dude is complaining about the tranny too saying how much better the tranny is in some Acura that he drove the following day.

I remember how smooth and smart my '98 GTP's tranny was.

I also remember how my Acura TL-S' tranny broke at 6,100 miles and had to be replaced.

johnclineii

Can't be.

Why, as I learned here earlier today, every Honda ever made or to be made is superior to every GM product that could EVER be built.

Must be true.

I read it here.

(And the above was bitter sarcasm, in case you didn't notice!)

wpbharry

John, no comment on the maturity level, but I do have some helpful suggestions: 1) cross-check my more recent postings from yesterday in the '04 Malibu forum, and 2) buy yourself (if you don't subscribe) a copy of the 50th Anniversary issue of the annual Consumer Reports auto guide, which should be on the stands mid-March, and check all those "red dots" for Honda/Acura vs. ANY GM product. Obviously, none of us can own all products from any mfr. and they survey THOUSANDS of folks on vehicle experiences.

Yes, I agree, any mfr. can produce a few lemons (ask me about the Oshawa-produced '96 Monte Carlo Z34 that I bought after the '92 Accord EX; was nearly killed in it the 4th time it died at speed, and only Chevy would give me more than 10 cents on the dollar for it; hence the '98 Malibu). Also, every mfr. can slip-up with a particular model. The current Civic Si is produced in Britain and is a disaster (bad choice on Honda's part, but they did it to appease the "teenage" (in body or mind) [non-permissible content removed] hot-rodders). I'm talking about AVERAGES, not a one-by-one case. As far as the Intrigue, I recall that a few years ago either MT or C&D did a long-term test on one and that too was mediocre. And I have one friend and one close relative with GPs (one '98, one '00) that are in the shop nearly as much as I am. Personally, I don't know of anyone with a Honda or Toyota with much of any problems, but there is always an exception or 2....

The last ('03 and prior) GP and Intrigue had no fewer parts than my Mailbu. They were all conceived about the same time, i.e. mid -90's.

So that you all are clear: I'M NOT TRYING TO KNOCK GM! I'm simply trying to get a feel for more recent GM experiences and wait with great anticipation your comments on the new GP, especially from those of you that buy one. Thanks, Harry

dindak

I think he was referring to the new optional tap shift, not the regular 4 speed auto.

evandro

I'd keep a salt shaker nearby when reading CR. Last year there were no statistics for a new Mustang because of lack of respondents, yet there were so for the Audi A6 2.7T. How many Mustangs to you see every day and how many A6s?

My neighbor bought a Ford Windstar because it was highly rated by CR, only to see it stall in the highway and have the tranny replaced. Interestingly, the Windstar showed up as a car to avoid a year later...

Then, when I considered an Accord, checking out the discussion in Edmunds, I was baffled to see owners argue that an optimistic fuel gauge is not an issue. I started wondering what such owners would put into CR survey card...

orwoody

I used to look at the Consumer Reports for years and even subscribed until they became too extreme in some of their viewpoints. They also hit a low point when they began soliciting raffles on their subscribers. I noticed that their reliability reports were only based on inputs from their readers, not an independent third party survey or real data collected from unbiased(meaning non-auto mfrs). I also noticed very few of my auto ownership experiences matched their charts... Here is an interesting article on one writer's thoughts on Consuumer Reports.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4733&sid=19- - 2&n=156