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Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

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Comments

  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    Richm4, I could never and stil can't find the perfect car, my GTP has the power, but the I30t has the refinement/m/better interior, like ou I keep my cars 4-5 yrs.

    In 2001 the ES300 was too floaty/boaty for me, the I30t handled much better/road sportier and was cheaper. After my probs with the '95 Aurora, i diid NOT buy the new for "01 Aurora.

    All cars have their problems and pluses/minuses. If the GTP had the XG350 interior it would be pretty nice. LOL
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    The only knock I have against the new max and Altima V6 is the horrendous torque steer. The GTP's is much more controlled. The 3.5 DOHC Nissan engine sounds nicer/refined. A top of the line GTP comp G is going for nearly the same price as the Max.

    I would rather buy the Max if the pricing was similar. the Max will have a higher resale valu down the road and most likely be more reliable/better built. I do NOT care for the front end of the new Max, but hey aftermarket parts can take care of that. The interior is nicer in the new max and I believe the new max is a larger/bigger car inside as well then the GTP?
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    <<<most people don't care about coupes, that's why they aren't making them any more>>>

    Dan165, roughly 20% of 2002 GP sales were COUPES... 2003 GP sales were down, coupe cost them 20% of sales. About 25% of all 1997-2002 GP sales werer coupes, so GM just lost 20%+ of its potential customer by dropping the coupe.

    They have forever lost me as a GP customer unless they bring back the coupe !! In 2006 I will be looking elsewhere, not at a GTP.

    Why does POntiac still make the Sunfire/Grand am in coupe version?
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    Why does Hond and Toyota continue to buld their coupes and GP doesn't, if sales are so small?

    I don't know about you but I have young kid at home and have no problem at all getting him in and out of the 2002 GTP, while I see people struggling getting their kid into these high off the ground SUVS..

    I can fit just as much in my GTP coupe as people can fit in their camaccord taruaus.

    Remember I bought a new 2001 I30t, that I traded in my 1995 Aurora on, so I am NOT as young as you think !!
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Folks we are here to talk about cars, not each other. Please leave the personal digs out of the conversation.

    Thanks.
  • evandroevandro Posts: 1,108
    Just wanted to share with you that after the kind suggestions here and else where, I've decided on Yokohama Avid Touring based on price to replace the Goodyear Eagle LS of my Intrigue. I got them for $79 each, the works. I actually used http://www.tirerack.com to haggle the price down at Discount Tire.

    After a day, I'm impressed with the ride quality and low noise. Dry traction is fine and I'm still to check it on wet pavement.
  • dan165dan165 Posts: 653
    Well, you can put down my car as much as you like, as well as all the other 04 drivers, but it's clearly a step up from the 03, I have the vast majority (if not all) of the press behind me on that. As for 'cheese', I would think the all the cladding and plastic in the previous generation would have even more formage.

    re : coupes, even people I do know that would drive a coupe drive a sedan or a truck. Sedans are just more practical in every way. Just my opinion, not 'FACT'. I do know that sales of coupes has been falling for years though, even in the compact car arena.
  • richm4richm4 Posts: 169
    Gunit, while coupes generally do have a more rakish or sporty appearance, IMO both the previous generation and current generation GP looks just as sporty as a sedan or a coupe would.

    There just aren't as many coupes these days as there were in the 70's before the baby boomers began having kids.
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    Dan165, I never put down or meant to put down your '04 GP, Nice car, good luck with it, my opinion, i owned a '97 and now '02 and after test driving the 2004 I was NOT impressed, yes it was better in certain area's, but NOT enough improvement over the '97-03 for me. It is still based on the same 1997 W body platforma and same 200hp 3800 Drivetrain.

    The interior of the 2004 is stil Very POOR/CHEAP compared to the competiition my opinion and and i have the vast majoirty if not all the press behind me on that issue.

    You can NOT fit much anymore in a GTP Sedan that you can fit ina GTP coupe. THey are the same 99 cu ft sized cars with 16 cu ft trunks. If that is the case, why does the Ford Mustang easily outse ll the GP?? Why do they solara and Accord coupe continue to sell? Why does the MOnte SS continue to sell? Why were nearly 25% of 1997-2002 GP sales copues then? Answer that? Grand Prix lost nearly 25% of its prospective buyersr when they killed the coupe including me.

    FYI... the GTP coupe has nearly 1/2 inch mor legroom then the sedan, go figure? 35.8" for the sedan and 36.2" for the coupe, these are the 1997-2003 figures...
  • orwoodyorwoody Posts: 269
    I still cling to my conspiracy theory that Pontiac dropped the GP coupe because of the GTO coming this fall. From what I was told by one regional sales manager, most persons who bought the GP coupe bought it loaded in GTP format. So for performance I think they decided to try to move those folks up to the GTO.
    Just my theory of course....
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    I understand what you are saying but Still disagree, the 1997-2002 GP coupe looked MUCH BETTER/Sporiter then the Sedan version. Sedan version looked ok. They were the same identical sized car as well. Remmeber in 1997 the GP coupe was $1,000 CHEAPER then the sedan. My 2002 Coupe was slightly cheaper then the sedan as well. The adds that toute, "Coupe Like styling" are full of crap. It is either a coupe or it isn't. I don't know how old you are or how far you go back, but coupes from the '50's and '60's are WORTH ALOT MORE $$ then the sedans of that time era.

    I don't buy the agrument that many posed that they need miinivansj/station wagons and SUV's for their kids, my son fits in my 2002 GTP coupe with no problem at all, in fact I can take him and put him in easier then mose parents can in their monstrous gas guzzling SUV's. I have put 2 kids in and I stil have a cool head turning car to boot, not some boring minivan that sucks gas and can't move out of its own way.

    baby Boomers were born from '46-'64. You are right, more and more people are moving away from coupes, I guess I'm one of those that will not. To each their own.
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    orwoody,but by cancelling the GTP Coupe and trying to move those people up to the GTO, that is alot more $$ t Remember 25% of GP sales were coupes.
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    IF coupe sales are falling and so bad why did Toyota come out with the Solara in 1999? Why did Chysler just come out with the Crossfire for 2004? Why is the Mustang selling better then ever, an due for a major redo for 2005?

    I don't buy the arugment that sedans are much better, the GP coupe/sedan were the same size car and coul carry just as many people/stuff. Im not trying ot force my opinon on people, just asking why? Knowone has given me an tangible proof, I have written and questioned GM and they they say nothing or claim it's sales which is BS.. nearly 25% of GP sales were coupes. That is an instant 25% loss right there by cancelling it. I do NOT like the MONTE Carol looks at all, personally I think the GP coupe looked 10x better.

    At least the 2 door GP coupe didn't look like your typical rent-a-car 4 door Grand Prix you see with the little E symbols on them. I like the 2 door because it stands out wheverer I go, there are about 8 GP's in my neighborood and I have the only coupe.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 1,784
    Dan, give the automotive press about 6 months and check back in on their reviews of the GP interior. Almost all of the major reviewers go easy on new introductions but slam them 6-12 months later. Clearly, with the substandard interior in the '04 GP, it will be a likely target for them down the road.

    Having said all that, I saw a new '04 today in the metallic orange color with charcoal leather, ands it looked nice except for the hard plastic on the dash and console. The lack of Uglycloth (TM Regd.) makes a huge difference.

    2011 Buick Regal Turbo, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • evandroevandro Posts: 1,108
    I wonder if the GP coupe was dropped so it wouldn't step on the toes of the Camaro/Firebird replacement. Or could it be that GM needed to keep development costs down at all... cost?
  • oldsman01oldsman01 Posts: 1,203
    Next time your behind a current generation Camry(or ES300) look for the same low hanging tailpipe that both previous versions had. The 02 model was updated, but is not a totally new design.
  • orwoodyorwoody Posts: 269
    Having worked for several very large global conglomerates, the marketing decisions are not always based on % of sales; gross margins, demographies, product mix-breadth and a host of other factors are mixed in...
    Whatever Pontiac/GM put out as the "official" communication as to why the coupe was dropped may only have a hint of the real reasons behind the decision. I theorize the decision was made several years ago as a cost cutting move and once they identified the GTO coupe as an offering they figured those really wanting a performance coupe would be wiling to move up the $5K or so to get one...
    Then again I could be all wrong and they based it on low margins even tough it was 25% of sales...
    then again evandro may be closer with the Camero/Firebird theory...
    Needless to say, they dropped and will loose a few customers because of it... figuring the new GP would be good enough/better and pick up some customers from the other brands...
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    GM could probably be more profitable by selling GTO's than GP Coupes. Thats probably why they canceled the GP Coupe.

    I don't care for the looks of the Monte Carlo either. The mid to late 90's Monte Carlo might have been bland but it looked alot better than the 00+ Model. The GTO on the other hand looks awesome!
  • regfootballregfootball Posts: 2,166
    GTP got kiled because the GTO can carry the torch for pontiac coupes better at this time.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    And they put in the Uglycloth (tm acknowledged) seats to force buyers into more profitable leather. That's what I think. Too bad for them, I won't buy leather and they have almost assuredly successfully moved me out of the GM fold. We will know for sure by next February.
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    Oldsman01, you are right about that Low hanging tailpipe design on the ES300/Camry, wonder why? I'm surprised more aren't scraping

    Evandro, I heard the GTO was the REPLACEMENT for the cancelled Firebird/Transam. Same rear drive and 5.7L Vette derived engine.

    Orwoody, lets hope GP someone reclaims those 25% of customers that wanted coupes someother way, It'ss funny that they haven't killed the Grand Am or Sunfire Coupe yet? as it stands Now I Will NEVER be buying a GP again unless they come up with a coupe. I never bought the Transam/camaro/Mustang, because insurance costs were 20% higher and they are NOT as roomy as my FWD GTP coupe was, and yeah I can drive the GTP in the snow with confidence, try that in a F body....

    Carguy 58, the GTO looks nice, I might have to put up the extra $5k to get one if it is still around by 2006.
  • What is next February?

    Why must I have to hear about the uglycloth and 2-door coupe ad nauseum?

    Is there anyone out there that actually owns an 04 that can contribute something to these discussions? Someone that can actually compare an 04 to a 97-03 based on real experience (not one test drive)?

    BTW - I looked at an 03 MC at the showroom. Then my daughter opened up the massive sized door right into the car sitting next to it. That was the end of considering the MC. I can't deal with doors that are 10' long!
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    >>>GTP got killed because the GTO can carry the torch for pontiac copues better at this time<<<

    Then why does Pontiac stil make the Sunfire and GrandAm coupe at this time?

    The GTO replaced the F body Transam/Firebird in Pontiacs LIneup. similar rear drive and 5.7L V8 setup. The Gto is not as big or roomy as the GTP coupe and costs alot more $$, not to mention at least 20% more to insure. GTO looks ok, but I thought my coupe looked better. Good luck having to drivin in the snow here in New York in the GTO, my FWD GTP had no problem. GTO is a nice car and I may consider one. I would never buy the 1st year, because dealer markups will be outrageous in year 1, remember the Tbird?

    It is rumored for year 2 of the GTO that they will have a dual ehaust system with better sound, which they couldn't put on the 1st models in time. Wieth 340hp it should go regardless.

    I remember in HS having a used 1974 GTO the last year, which was nothing more then a Ventura/ Nova platform with the 350 V8, that wasn't too fast or exciting. Only around 180HP? Car was only about 6 yrs old and I had done major mods to it like dropping a truck 454 with 250 hp in it/conservative pwr ratings at the time ,but a hell of alot better then the stock 350, Then I got rearended and that was the end of it.. oh well... Wish I had that back.
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    midlifecrisis,

    I have had a coupe for many years and the door is NOT 10 foot long...

    THe door is roughly around 4.5 ft long/ Exact measurements are 4 foot 8 inches ONLY 1 foot longer then the sedan front door which is about 3ft 8 inches long.

    Not sure where you got 10 feet from, not even close. Remember the coupe has nearly 1/2 an inch more of rear leg room. 36.2 vs 35.8 inches, go figure.. LOL

    And yes you have to more slightly more careful when parking in tighter spots with the coupe, because of the extra 1 foot, but I parking in garages at malls and in Manhatten al the time and have no problems... just have to be carefull

    Not sure about now, but back in 1997 the Coupe was $1,000 cheaper then the sedan... in 2002 it was only $100 or $200 less then the sedan, buy hey, stil less money !!
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    midlifcrisis, I always pay more for the optional leather in my cars, much easier to clean spills off of and doesn't stain like cloth and it lasts longer material wise. Especially with young kids at home, leather makes a much better choice, ever have smeared or dripping ice cream cones, comes off leather alot easier then cloth.

    On top of it my opinion the cloth patterns just looks plain ugly, leather looks alot nicer.

    Same in my house, all leather couches/chairs etc. because of the kids.

    On the GTP leather was cheap $500 option, if that? With my kids, well worth it.

    Yes there are disadvantages of leather, like hot in the summer/cold in the winter, But I had an aftermarket heated seat added to my passenger side seat and backseat for under $250 installed.

    Uusally once a year I use the Meguairs leather cleaner/conditioner one step stuff to keep the seats looking/smelling new.

    My 1997 GTP leathet seats looked very good when I traded it in in 2002, near new
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    >>>Is there anyone out there that actually owns an 04 that can contribute something to these discussions? Someone that can actually compare an 04 to a 97-03 based on real experience (not one test drive)?<<<

    Yes, I have owned both a '97 and '02 GTP and have been given a 2004 as a company car, the "04 is smoother/quieter, better quality leather seats, less windsound at highway speed but didn't feel any faster. It did handle better, but the backseats were worse. To me it was an overglorified 1997 that was refreshed/restyled for 2004. I don't see enough improvements ot warranty buying one, esp with the $3k and $4k rebates no longer in place. THe tapshift was useless. Also the ride is just as harsh as my '02 GTP. To me it is a free company car so I could care less. To me it is nothing more then an overglorified 1997 with sound deadening/handlinga and slightly better interior/leather if you are buying a 2004 you are buying a 1997, same underpinning and and 200hp drivetrain. Just improved upon for 2004/ I don't consider it an all new revision. Pontiac claims 80% parts are new, but how can that be when it uses the same platform/drivetrain from 1997? Good luck, its a nice car, just doesn't compare to the competitors. The competitors have made many more improvements since 1997 then the GP has. I'm NOT an accord/camary fan, but Sit in one much big dif in quality.

    I will NOT be taking clients in this car, esp after last month, I had clients complain about the 2004, esp backseat, calling the car typical GM junk, I will now be using my 2001 I30t for that which overall is a much better car, esp the interior. Before this I used to use my 1995 Aurora which clients loved.
  • dindakdindak Posts: 6,632
    midlifecrisis : cloth and coupes have been over discussed, you are correct. With parking spaces shrinking every year, it's no wonder coupes with big doors are loosing favor.

    gunit : Midsize coupe sales have been falling for years. Honda makes one because Toyota makes one and vise versa. It's called not loosing a customer. Since GM has other coupes available and coming, they could cut one. Not hard to understand.
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    What parking spaces are shrinking each year? What proof of this do you have? The avg space is 9x19 to 10x20, which has NOTHING to do with the declining sales of coupes. Its up to city ordinances when proposing new spots. Look at all the over sized SUVs on the road, they can fit in those same spots, so your statement is incorrect and flawed. Its the people that incorrectly park in the spots that cause the problems. Coupes DO not have much bigger doors, the monte/GP coupe doors are roughly 4.5 feet in length. The average midsized sedan door is 3.5 feet length , one more foot, big deal. Not much when you consider the big suburbans that have to park next to you. Not hard to understand, right? I have no problem parking/getting in and out of my GTP coupe and taking my son out as long as the other person parking between the lines. I'm also in very good shape 5'11 165lbs, that could be it too.

    yes midsized coupes sales have been falling I agree, but 25% of GP buyers bought coupes from 1997-2002 the numberd don't lie. WHy does GM still make the MC then? GP will loose customers by dropping its coupe, that is a fact, 2004 sales are below the levels of 2002 sales. They are only only 10% above 2003 sales. Not good. Why did CHrysler come out with the crossfire for 2004 if there is a shinking market for coupes? I Love the crossfire, SLK320 with a $10k rebate, brother in law just got one, very nice car. WHy did the solara come out for 1999 in a shriking market? Care to explain?

    What other coupes does GM have coming that are of equal size and space to the W bodies? Yes since this a Grand Prix board and I own one unlike some other people here I thought it a relavant topic. I'm one of the 25% of people GM has cut off.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    And I am one GM cut off as well. I had a 98 GTP and currently have a 00 Impala LS. With that backseat and the Uglycloth (tm acknowledged), the 04 GP GTP isn't a car I will even consider. I drove one over 500 miles recently, and if I never drive another it will be too soon. I also had clients rebell on the back seat.

    February? That's when the Mazda6 hatchback/wagon and the Malibu Max and the Mazda3 wagon will all be out--at least by then.

    GM reads these boards. They can and may take into account what they read here. I was presold on the 04 GP. Then, sadly, I got to see/drive one.
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    <<Because of an aging product line and consumers' affinities for sport utility vehicles, Pontiac's sales have fallen from 616,000 in 1999 to 517,000 in 2000, their sales fell another 13% from 2002 to 2003, not sure on the sale figures, just the percent.>>

    <<. Says Lutz: "We want to make Pontiac an affordable, American BMW.">>

    Good luck, they should have tried that awhile ago.

    <In time, many Pontiacs will share platforms and suspensions with high-end Cadillacs and Saabs. But it could be years before enough new cars arrive to make a difference.<<

    They should have been doing this years ago. Now they have to play big time catch up.

    <<Likewise, the new Grand Prix that arrives in showrooms this month was engineered to drive with tight steering and fun handling. But it's built with the same engine and platform as the current 1997-2003 car and with similar styling.>>

    True again, not enough changes, just new sheetmetal and little improvements here and there, the 2003 was a much better car with the $3k rebate then the 2004, I own and drive both a 2002 and now 2004 company car
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