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Toyota Prius (First Generation)
I just got back from a Toyota training class on
the Prius. This is an amazing vehicle with a
really unique ordering process. If anybody is
interested in this topic, post your questions here.
the Prius. This is an amazing vehicle with a
really unique ordering process. If anybody is
interested in this topic, post your questions here.
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The order bank goes into effect June 16th and the first cars for retail sale will be delivered between the last week of July to the first week of August. We will have none for stock for the first several months. All of them will go through this on line ordering system.
BTW, torque on the electric motor is 225. Go figure that one!
I really wish there was more participation in this topic. This car is flat out amazing and Toyota has big plans for it. Somebody ask me about regenerative braking, free service, the warranty or how Toyota will handle warranty repairs.
As to the Insight, the reason people may say it is a better highway car is because the gas motor is always running so economy is improved when not in stop and go situations.
While we're on the topic, I'd really like to see a hybrid truck or SUV. Electric motors develop excellent torque at low RPMs, just what trucks/SUVs need. I drive a pickup truck, so I'm interested. I'd definitely consider a hybrid pickup if one was available. Just a thought.
At Toyota's web site, it seems that both engines hook up to the drivetrain. See http://www.toyota.com/afv/prius/intro_prius2.html and look at the engine info. It says the engines "...work in tandem, depending on the driving situation, to complement, augment, and even defer to one another."
Maybe the excellent MPG for city driving may be due to regenerative braking?
I think you are right. I think all the braking in
the city driving is the reason why it actually
gets better milage in the city. The Prius in Japan gets 66 mpg in the city, and only 50 something on the highway. Pretty funny. But then, again, it sort of works out. Since compact cars are not as well suited for long highway trips (not as comfortable, roomy, and crash worthy, nor as stable in the wind due to low weight). So I guess better gas milage in stop and go driving city/commute driving is actually a plus. Oh, as for the hybrid SUV, Ford said they will market a variant of it's Escape compact SUV with hybrid technology in 2003, and get 40 mpg (on the highway?).
Cliffy1:
I heard at the end of the last year, since its
introduction in as a 1997 model car, Toyota managed to sell 28,000 of these Prius cars in Japan (where to automarket is about 1/4th the size of the U.S). So it sure sell equally well in the much larger U.S market. Of course the gas isn't as expensive in the U.S as in Japan, but it's getting more expensive by the day.
Also it has the advantage that it actually is a
true sedan (instead of the less utiliarian Insight
as a 2 seater). So you can use it for the same
things an Toyota Echo or Corolla is for -- small
family needs.
Honda, late with it's Insight, rushed it directly to U.S without long term market experience, and then only comes with 3 year/36K miles power train warranty on it. Since Toyota Prius has been sold in Japan for 3 years, all the teething problem are ironed out by now. Still the 5 year/60,000 mile power train warranty is good for peace of mind. Hmmm.... My family having owned multiple Toyota/Hondas, I know they are reliable. But I wouldn't be too complacent about fresh technology.
Also, increditably, Toyota is pricing all that
goodies at a lower price than the Honda Insight.
Confirm this for me, will you cliffy? The Prius
comes only in one flavor -- fully loaded, A/C,
Power everything. MSRP - $19,995.
So when are you getting that demo in?
http://www.autosite.com/new/detmenus/2267.asp
Very impressive.
Cliffy: I have a question. The website has sited 2 different powertrain warraty:
http://www.autosite.com/new/datashts/techspec/2267.asp
here it said it will comes with WHOPPING 8 year/100,000 miles power train warranty. While another page listed the typical 5 year/60K warranty. So which one is it really?
On you question of what is connected to what else, I am still a little unclear. The way it was described to me, is that the gas motor is connected to the generator only. The generator can send the power to either battery charging or into the CVT transaxle. So, yes, the gas engine contributes to actually turning the tires but is not directly connected to the transaxle.
One of the big differences between this car and the insight is that the engine is not always running on the Prius. It kicks in only when needed. Because of this, it gets better mileage in town because you are less likely to need the gas motor in town. This is also why the Prius is rated as an SULEV (Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle) where the Insight is only a ULEV. ULEV vehicles have 75% more emissions than SULEV.
I think I read somewhere that the price of Prius in Japan was subsidized to test the market. That is, to see if people would buy a hi-tech hybrid vehicle if it was reasonably priced. Is the U.S. Prius also subsidized by Toyota? If so, any idea how much $$ per vehicle?
By the way, subsidizing new technologies until they become accepted by the marketplace is fine by me! Once they sell them in volume, economies of scale will kick in and, don't worry, they'll make their $$$.
Cliffy1, I'm confused about the drivetrain too.
I think what Toyota has done is develop a very sophisticated electronic monitoring system that lets the electric engine, the gas engine, or both, run the car depending on the driving conditions. The gas engine can act as a generator OR directly hook up to the drivetrain to accelerate the car. This is implied by the Toyota link I listed in my previous note. Also see http://www.autosite.com/new/datashts/stdfeats/2267.asp under "Engines & Emissions". It says the both or either engine can run the car.
This is a great system that lets the gas engine turn off entirely in stop-and-go traffic where the electric engine's excellent torque can be put to good use. But this doesn't mean the gas engine ONLY charges the batteries.
That's my understanding, anyway.
I heard estimate that Toyota subsized the car up to 50%. That was a while back. I'm sure it's little cheaper now after building them for 3 years now. But I'm still speculating that Toyota is probably still chipping in maybe 20% for each Prius sold in the U.S.
Cliffy1: They are coming out with a Toyota RX300?! WHEN? And how much?! If they do, Toyota is going to make moocho $$$$ of that one. If people are willing to wait months for a Lexus RX300, imagine what it would be like to have a more affordable Toyota RX300? Man!
I think we may be dealing in semantics as well. I am positive that the gas engine does not have a direct connection to the transaxle unless you count its route through the generator. Does this make sense?
Let me also try to explain what I know of this generator. What a generator does is convert energy. It can work in either direction but when power is applied from the engine, the energy can be sent to the wheels via the transaxle or to the batteries to charge them. To start the engine, power is run from the batteries, through the generator and back into the engine. It is about 5 times as large as a normal starter and I have heard that startups are instantaneous.
And yes, I think we will sell a ton of them. I can't wait.
I too think there is more to gain from applying this to the SUVs to try and make them greener.
I have not seen this car - how roomy is it? - I would not even think of the Honda as it is too small.
Saftey is a hot button of mine - and Toyota has been doing better in crash tests recently - have you any idea how this will perform - is it based on an existing chassis?
I think somewhere I read that it had side air bags- can you confirm?
And Why if it gets 66mpg in Japan would they list only 50 or so?
So it's good enough for 4 people, but not very comfy for 5. Looking at the spec, I noticed it's all the interior demension is about the same between Corolla and Prius, except the Prius has about 2 inches more leg room. So the Prius is little roomier.
http://www.autosite.com/new/detmenus/2267.asp
Check this site out. The weight of the Prius is listed as 2765 lbs. So it's 200-300 lbs heavier than Civic/Corolla (the battery pack probably weights 100+ lbs, regernative brakes and others probably makes up the rest). Heavier cars fairs better in a crash. Also crashworthiness usually improves with each generation, I think Prius should be at least as good as the mainstream civic/corolla if not better.
Since the Prius has a longer wheel base than the Corolla (100.4 inch vs 97 inch). Also, the track is 1 inch wider for the Prius. So it should be a more stable platform.
Of course, all this is just looking at the paper. I can't wait to test drive one in person.
Oh, as for the milage. I sort of remember that the Prius in Japan used a smaller 1.0-1.3L engine and the U.S gets a bigger 1.5L engine. That's probably why the gas milage is different between the 2.
The government has not crash tested this car yet but I think it should do well. It is on its own platform but is similar in size to the Corolla and ECHO. The ECHO actually did as well in Toyota's in house testing as the Camry did. I don't have my product info handy right now but I don't think it comes with the side air bags. I could be wrong.
The interior is really cool.....very art deco in a contemporary way. i especially like the chrome strips (REAL chrome!) on the controls -- very elegant and contemporary.
LOTS of space inside. It has what is now the in thing -- tall architecture for better head room, comfort, view of the road, etc.
It's supposed to reatil for around $20, which is a steal.
Think that's about it.......can't wait!!
cliffy1: busted, eh??
First I'd like to thank cliffy1 for advising me that a Prius topic had been opened. I have plenty of questions about the Prius so I can further instruct my parents as to why I want to buy this car. My parents are very concerned about me buying this car, they continue claiming that "it will leave me stranded on the highway when the battery dies". They are worried that maintenance will cost me an arm and a leg. So, if anyone can answer these questions,I would appreciate it.
1. How much does the battery cost and when will it need to be replaced?
2. Will the maintenance fee for routine things such as brakes, etc, be higher than for other Toyota vehicles?
3. Is the $500 college graduate discount applicable to the purchase of this vehicle?
4. Is there a website where current Prius owners talk about their experience with the car in English? I came across one the other day, but it was all in Japanese.
I know it's a lot of asking, but I'm a curious girl.. Thanks in advance.
Dee
The car is also coming with 3 years of free maintenance. They are doing this to relieve the exact fears your parents have. The deal is though, the electronics will require so little maintenance anyway, that it should cost no more to keep this car up as any other one on the road. The electric motor is brushless and theoretically, requires no upkeep.
I have a customer that is ready to put her information in the minute she can. She really wants to be the first on the block with a Prius but it looks like she will have to wait another week or two. I'll post more info on this as soon as I have it.
On another note, has anybody seen color samples for this car. My distribution department claims there is nothing right now. Dennis?
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000616/t33141.html
I'd say they'll easily do that. Might even get that up to 20,000 per year eventually. Go Prius!
My question is to you folks:
- If I am considering high mileage for a car, why shouldnt i go for a deisel cars. The advent of Turbo/injection deisel gives higher mileage and run for a longer life.
- Why should I buy an echo for a price of $20K?
- Rechargable batteries are the biggest concern. They drain fast and expensive. Not to mention recycle. Do you guys think it will cost a lot of money to get the battery replaced & how often?
Just like you folks, I have been waiting for this car for almost a year but I just cannot justify this car to convince myself to buy it.
Prious is an expensive way to save money.
If polution is the case. Then my reasons are wrong.
regards.
They had a Prius over at the dealer the other day and I went over there to test drive one, but found out I could only ride in it and let the Toyota Rep drive. Kinda lame. Its a nice little car. Unfortunately, it wasn't till we returned from the drive and I was grilling the guy about what the engine had been on since we had left, did he realize that since he had the A/C on, that the engine would never go off. Not really the best way to demo a Hybrid. Overall, the car was very nice and quiet to drive in and pretty roomy.
This guy was telling me of a VERY complicated procudure when I need to sign up on the web and then have a dealer authorize the purchase through them and then I would get on the national order list. Makes me a little worried since if the dealer is not on the ball, they could really screw this up.
I do understand from the Rep that the web site will not be available until 6/30 due to technical problems. If any one has any more info, please post it.
On another note, does anyone know how the Prius is doing getting approved in the state of California to drive in the HOV lanes under the AB71 law that goes in effect on 7/1. If this car will allow me to drive in the car pool lanes, it will save me an hour a day on the road!
Regards,
My dealership was involved in a test run of the order system and we experienced several problems. This is why the launch was delayed. I was told that the goal was June 30, but that is not set in stone yet.
As to the AC, you discovered one of the quirks about this car. On very hot days, you may need to hit the "Max AC" button to keep the car cool. AC compressors turn on and off and create a big drain on the batteries. In the normal AC mode, you wont notice any problem except on VERY hot days in stop and go traffic. If you are moving a lot or if it is not quite so hot, the system can handle it without running the gas engine. I think you guys are experiencing a serious heat wave so that would explain why he had the Max button on.
As to the HOV question, I heard that CA and a few other states had special exclusions for SULEV cars. I don't think we have this in VA but the trainers did mention something about an exclusion in CA. If that is really the case, I think you will need to be in line very quickly.
Concerning bbuns' comment about the Prius being nothing more than a $20k Echo, I disagree. I've driven both and there is no comparison. The Echo feels like a cheap, greasy little transportation appliance to me, whereas the Prius has a lovely interior with gobs of room, accelerates with the silence that only an electric engine can provide, and has more than adequate power. I think it's a great first effort for this type of vehicle, and the price is modest for the benefits involved.
I agree that diesel polute the environment. Especially those v12 trailers... Concidering a 90HP diesel motor will burn infact less than the amount of gas because of high milage. An average V6 cars gives 20 miles a gallon where as diesel 90HP (with high torque) will burn 1/4 amount of one gallon of diesel.
When I meant prius vs echo, I meant the gas engine and chasis. I had an oppurtunity to sit in Japanese version of prius in Detroit auto show 99 and american version of prius in Detroit auto show 00. Both have a nice interior.
Hybrid technology is emerging. Its a great concept. In my opinion, cars like that should be readily acceptable and cheap so we can buy it. For instance japanese cars were cheap and economical during oil crisis in 70s.
And when it comes to value (in objective terms like fit and finish, noise vibration and harshness, maintenance and reliablity, resale value, etc.), Japanese cars still lead the industry, according to JD Powers, Consumer Reports and similar publications.
i also read somebodys complaint about the honda insight not having a means to plug/recharge the batteries directly. in the occasional times you do want to charge the batteries directly, can the prius plug directly to a wall socket?
also wouldnt hybrid vehicles using advanced/expensive technology have higher insurance?
last of all... since the gas-electric hybrid system is like an electric generator wouldnt it be nice if there is a means for us to tap into it during power failures or in camping trips?
thanks and sorry for the long post.
As to cold weather issues, I asked the trainers about this. they told me that the car had undergone testing in Anchorage Alaska just to find out how it did. They claimed it had very little degradation in performance. At this point, I would call that hearsay but knowing Toyota, I'm sure they gave this issue some thought.
One other thing I want to point out here. Toyota is so paranoid about this car's success, they are individually calling every person who orders one. They will ask you questions to make sure the dealership has not oversold the car. They want you to have realistic expectations of the car and don't want you buying it if they think you wont be completely satisfied. The last thing they want is for a guy who only drives highways to post on this board that it doesn't do what he/she wants because his salesman told him things that were not true. They even mentioned the Town Hall specificly when talking about this issue.
im not sure where i read it (bombardier neighbor or th!nk city - both pure electric cars) that the charge cost for a year amounts to less than the engine oil change cost for a conventional car. so keeping the gas engine out as long as possible seems to be the way to go.
why im asking? cause im thinking this car would be perfect for business use involving delivery/courrier services (ie. low speed stop and go door to door newspaper delivery, pizzas city deliveries, valentine flowers). i hope toyota doesn't get horrified with THAT thought.
in the case of the insurance, while the warranty would probably cover most of the maint cost what im afraid of is what happens if you crash your car. wouldnt you end up with repair bills amounting to the real unsubsidized value of the car?.... or maybe not. i guess the insurance company would just declare your car totalled rather than fix it.
as to that camping power tap, i wish that toyota would give that some thought specially for their planned SUV hybrid. just think about it, put your car keys in the on position and tap into the batteries. as soon as the batteries start to discharge the gas engine fires up and recharges it then sits back quietly again til needed.
i've read engine modifications to double as power plants but this system looks more sensible.
(i just read the last part of your post... name TOWN HALL specifically?! yeowww... were famous! thanks EDMUNDS!)
I am really intrigued by your suggestion of an out plug. The next time I talk to a Toyota big wig, I may suggest that one.
Believe it or not, I think Toyota would be quite happy to have some in the delivery service. That is the ideal driving conditions for this car. You certainly have given this some thought.
The one thing I am trying to remember from the training is what they said about fully discharging the batteries. I don't think it is possible to do without leaving it sitting for long period of time. There is a specific procedure to recharge them and you can't do it at home. I forget what the problem is, but something technical prevents you from being able to do it simply.
On the plus side, as long as you have even a small amount of juice left, you are fine. The 12 volt batter starts the gas engine and from there, you recharge the main batteries.
There is also a shut down procedure. If you are not going to be driving the car for 3 weeks or more, there is a way to disconnect the batteries to make sure they don't drain down. Until I actually have one in front of me with the owners manual, I can't tell you exactly how to do this but I know you can.
Batteries are funny things. I don't claim to be an expert on them but I do my best.
And yes, the Town Hall is making waves. Toyota is learning the power of this site.
You might want to check out what appears to be
the official prius website... there's lots of
very interesting information there.. I didn't
see a link on the toyota.com site for it, but
maybe I missed it.. it's at
http://prius.toyota.com
And as far as cold weather testing goes, I remember reading somewear about it being extensively tested up in Timmins, Ontario..
it gets plenty cold here even in Ottawa, ON, and
Timmins being farther north is worse.. so if it
can manage Timmins, it ought to be just fine
in the winter..
ttyl,
Gregg
and the generator is set to provide output to charge at this voltage. you would not like a power tap into this. I like the idea though