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2011 Toyota Avalon

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  • nceencee Posts: 419
    The Genesis was a car I was considering, and maybe I'll give it another try?

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  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    The Genesis is a great car. Interior is top notch (great materials/fit-n-finish) and IMO is one good looking car. However, if you like the plush ride of the Avalon you may not be happy with it. It rides firm and is RWD which makes it a better handling car than the Avalon. The 3.8 V6 in the Genesis is more than adequate in terms of performance, however not as refined as Toyota's 2GR V6. FE is very similar to the Avalon, loosing about 1 MPG overall. Interior room is pretty similar, although the Avalon wins in the back seat due to the nearly flat floor (the Gen has a hump).

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • nceencee Posts: 419
    Well I have the Touring Edition, and it's ride is not like the limited.

    I'll be looking forward to comparing, as I do a lot of long drives (I have 35,000 miles on the car and it just turned 12 months old), and there are times that the stiff ride of the Touring model is not what I'd like. But I must admit, I'm only comparing what folks say, as I've not driven anything but the Touring model, as it was the last Avalon on the lot when I purchased it.

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  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I came from an XLS model (same ride as Limited) so the Genesis is noticeably firmer. I drove a Touring but that is almost 4 years ago now, I remember it being firmer than the XLS but coudn't make a fair comparison to the Genesis as I don't remember it well enough.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • bvdj84bvdj84 Posts: 1,721
    New updated look is nice. But, this model design is getting pretty old now. They have refreshed it a couple times now. This being the most updated so far.

    Still a classy looking car. But, getting a little old.
  • ncee,

    If you like the ride and the room of Avalon and the Lexus, I don't think you will buy an Infiniti. I had three I30/I35s before they were discontinued. I tried to like the M series, but found the suspension to be too stiff and the interior too cramped. They also had them geared for performance and the gas mileage suffered. Being so enamored with the sales of the sporty G series, they obviously decided to move the entire brand toward performance and away from luxury (although the price also went up). This was in 2007. They may have fixed the gearing situation, but I am now so happy with the Avalon that I wouldn't go back.
  • twinbtwinb Posts: 140
    Good conversation here! Last fall I began shopping for a full size, plush sedan that rode like one, not a wanna be Lamborghini. Drove the Buick Lucerne, Caddy STS, Hyundai Genesis, Acura TL, Lexus ES350, Ford Taurus. Compared to the '10 Toy XLS none of them quite measured up to what I wanted. Buick & Caddy came the closest in interior luxury & smooth ride but I wanted to use regular gas, & each of them had other 'shortcomings'. The TL handled really like a sports car which was fun to drive but the ride was too harsh. Lexus & Ford were OK but neither interior was as rich as the XLS. Additionally many of these cars have the sloping rear side glass which I hate because you can't see out of the passenger side rear window for traffic. Genesis was a close second on my list but the ride, floor hump in back seat, & charcoal colored dashboard top regardless of the interior color stood out like a sore thumb.

    Prices were another aggravation. Caddy, Acura, Lexus, & Genesis dealers would hardly budge from the MSRP; no way Caddy is worth $15,000 more than an XLS. Lexus is a nice car but not a serious contender to the mid-level Lexus.

    So like the rest of you I'm stuck on dead center again. I started looking at the Genesis again last night, the warranty is terrific. Like my wife said, get something, anything, because nothing will be exactly what you want anyway. (sigh)
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I can tell you since I have owned both the Avalon and the Genesis that you probably couldn't go wrong with either one. The Genesis wins on interior materials, handling, and quietness. The Avalon wins on engine refinement (when compared to Hyundai's V6), rear seat room (no hump), and has a softer ride (if that's your thing some feel that is a negative on the Avalon).

    Gas mileage is very similar (1 MPG less overall in Genesis) and so far after a little more than 9000 miles mine has been flawless.

    As for getting a good deal, I leased my Genesis under invoice before a 1,000 rebate. The dealers will negotiate now. If you are thinking Avalon I would most certainly wait for the 2011, of course though at first getting a good deal will be tough as dealers will want top dollar for the first few they get in stock.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • twinbtwinb Posts: 140
    Yes, I like a softer ride; I don't take many sharp turns at 50 mph. Still I like a more powerful engine because here in Denver the mountain roads require plenty of horsepower.

    I had ordered a '10 XLS two months ago but after the recalls began that's the last I've heard about it. I've cancelled that order. I was looking quickly at the Hyundai Azera online today, and while it's said to be a large car I don't know if it's in the same league as the Genesis. Anyone else want to talk about cars you're considering now besides the Avalon?
  • twinbtwinb Posts: 140
    edited February 2010
    The news release:

    http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/document/2011_Avalon_Product_Info.pdf?- - - - ncid=11092

    and this:

    http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/Chicago-auto-show-avalon-reveal-153426- .aspx

    I'd read in some newspaper's online news that a front bench seat would be an option but it looks like that's not true. There is a 1mpg gain in mileage and a backup camera is standard in the rearview mirror (?) on cars without a Nav system. Too bad the XLS line has been dropped; I suppose that saves money some way or another. Wonder how much of a price increase there will be?
  • bwiabwia Boston Posts: 1,296
    edited February 2010
    The above link to the article says that the Avalon was redesigned for 2011. Maybe my eyes are fading but I did not see a difference. No?

    The continuation of the exterior styling seem to match Toyota these days--- stuck in denial. The current model is not selling well so I cannot fathom why they could continue with more of the same. With Hyundai in the rearview mirror I would have expected Toyota to respond more aggresively to the Genesis. But they seem to have run out of gas (bad pun intended).
  • I will agree with you that it was not a very noticeable redesign, but the things they added are nice additions to an excellent car.

    When I was a car-crazy kid in the 1950s and 60s, my friends and I used to go to the local Chevy and Ford dealerships during the week before the new models were unveiled. We would peek in the windows, hoping to be the first to see them. There were radical design changes every year and that was exciting. Of course, the auto industry (and life) is different now. For economic reasons, the manufacturers don't change their designs as often and, for safety reasons, I no longer go snooping around car dealers' lots at night.

    As to Hyundai, I believe that they have chosen to compete on the basis of price on all models in order to win market share and they are doing a fine job at that. I also think that they are marketing the Genesis as sort of a "poor man's Lexus," while Toyota offers the Avalon as a "rich man's Camry/Ford/Chevy." Thus the Genesis and the Avalon are not in direct competition. As the Camry gets bigger and fancier, Toyota may have to rethink the need of having Avalon in its lineup or the role that it is to play. If sales of the 2010 don't exceed those of the '09, they will probably either drop Avalon or take it in a new direction. Then you will get a major redesign.
  • finfin atlantaPosts: 589
    My distant connection to Toyota in Japan explains that the "new" 2011 Avalon is a result of the obvious: world economic conditions and the need for a reasonably priced near luxury (don't top the Lexus ES) model at Toyota in the U.S. This is the same argument that came up late last year concerning re-design and nothing has changed.

    The Avalon would not be a viable product if it were made as a stand alone model. But given it's made with the Camry, it works for the bean counters. And it's American designed, another plus. It still helps get customers into the dealership but not as much as a decade ago (??), the new body changes are intended to cure that.

    Toyota would love to come up with a totally new Avalon, or similar name, for the U.S. market. But unit sales are not expected to be high enough in the current economic downturn to make it work financially. Sooner or later it will happen, it just looks like later. The other choice was to drop the model completely, not a good choice as it does help Toyota to sell Avalons. And a "high end" Camry is not high end enough.

    The Avalon lives on.... :)
  • nceencee Posts: 419
    I guess my questions are these?

    How much more is the cost if they had changed the body style more?

    They did make changes that don't allow them to use any of the same body panels, so why not make a bigger change?

    They changed the insides a fair amount, why not change it more?

    Again, they can't use any of the old parts or parts from a different model car, so what are the added cost(s) to a complete change-over, although the insides did change more then the outsides (IMO).

    It would seem that by making such small changes, they are dooming the Avalon, is that what you are hoping for? That doesn't seem to make any sense.

    If the world economics are that bad, maybe not making it, makes more sense then doing it with such small changes?

    Again, I will be trying it out, when it comes in to my local dealer (I put a small deposit on it:)), buy I'm not sure I want to trade for a newer one, that isn't a lot newer, cooler, better … I'll let you know after I drive it.

    I'll be trading in my 2008 Tour Edition.

    Skip
  • twinbtwinb Posts: 140
    Does not every automaker face the same dilemma? Look at Acura with the RL and TL models, or Caddy with the STS and DTS lines. What about the 'retro' styling in the TBird and Camaro, or the Taurus trying once again to breathe life into the SHO model that died because of lack of buying interest. That's what the fight about market share is about, and it's not gonna change. People want what they've always wanted, a reasonable price for a product that's as reliable as it can be. Toyota WAS doing that for awhile, but whether it grew complacent or became too large or started building in America where the quality was not as good is the stuff debates thrive on.

    Is Hyundai the new Toyota? I don't know, but it's clear that Toyota is not the old Toyota. Nor can they be. Skip, I'll be interested in your reactions when you drive the new car, and everyone else's too. For me, it's a coin toss between the Avalon & Genesis; I'm gonna drive the new model too, being intently focused on the machine & my experience behind the wheel.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    IMMHO the "retro" T-bird would still be in production if they had provided a "modern" interior. And by this time it would have, should have had, a nice DFI 2L I4 tri-mode (Otto/Atkinson/Miller) SuperCharged engine.

    The new TwinForce (EcoBoost) "SHO"...?

    Nothing but a GAS--GUZZLING showpiece for the "boy-racer" mentality crowd.
  • finfin atlantaPosts: 589
    Pure automotive engineering, as in building a new model, and making it work on the showroom floor was never my area of specialty, but here are some guesses. IMO....

    Compared to total redesign and a new assembly line, the cost of new sheetmetal and related exterior parts, including inventory, is insignificant. Same for the inside treatment. It's all heavy cosmetic, within limits, not structural. The main idea was to keep building the car with the Camry. If you need a different chassis Avalon will not work financially, it does not sell enough units.

    The Avalon is a nice addition to the Toyota lineup of family and smaller sedans. It helps sell cars. The Camry is easily the dominant seller at the dealership. But if you want to step up a little (softer ride, etc.) from Camry the Avalon fills in nicely, undercutting Lexus by 8k or more. With this in mind you keep making Avalons even at near breakeven and my guess is they actually make a few dollars on each one.

    Having owned three Avalons I consider them one of the best values out there. Great cars, all. But I have looked around and must concede that the Genesis and Azera are impressive, as are several others. When the '07 Limited hits 90k or close to it my search will begin. And by then there may be a total redesign of the Avalon. :)
  • kenb757kenb757 Posts: 149
    edited February 2010
    I would call the 2011 Avalon a refresh, not a redesign. Looks like the biggest change is the instrument panel. I would bet that if Toyota knew of the current problems facing the company, it would have completely redesigned the Avalon to distance it from those problems, if only psychologically. Everyone that sees the 2011 Avalon will know it's an Avalon and will associate it with Toyota's pedal/acceleration problems, probably for years to come. Maybe these issues will force Toyota into major redesigns of its most popular products sooner, rather than later. Hopefully, quality and Deming's manufacturing principles will be relearned by Toyota soon.
  • nceencee Posts: 419
    But will it be "to little - to late"?

    The new one isn't much different, and for that reason, I'll have to drive it first, before I buy it, but I'm thinking, what's one more year (aside from 35,000 more miles on the car). But I also don't see them coming up with a "All New" (really new) design or model for a few years. Of course that could change if sales tank in general.

    Of course at 35,000 + miles a year, I'll be ready to trade next year anyways (convincing myself:)).

    Skip
  • bwiabwia Boston Posts: 1,296
    Just received the following message and link from Toyota.

    “The 2011 Avalon was recently revealed at the Chicago Auto Show, and now we'd like to invite you to be among the first to take a look. From its spacious cabin to its available voice-activated DVD navigation system, the 2011 Avalon is bringing comfort back.”

    http://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/?siteid=DMG_em_201002_RLA_launch_avalon_- see&url=cta
  • twinbtwinb Posts: 140
    edited February 2010
    What's going on here? First the recalls on cars, then the drive shaft on Tacoma trucks, now the steering on Corollas. I don't know what to make of all this. Has Toy's quality slipped so badly, along with their attitude toward customer complaints, that now they have to run around like chickens without heads trying to put out fires? From what Toyoda's been saying in his speeches, that's exactly what's happened. His response, besides bowing from the waste and apologizing? Form a quality committee. He should be an American politician. Where was he when all this was going on for the past, at least, 5 years.

    Well, I know these issues are real, and customers have been complaining for a long time, but that happens in all businesses. What bothers me is the dealers' responses to their customers. I went thru a similar experience with run flat tires on our Sienna, and had the service 'advisor' tell me and my wife some gobbeldygook that wasn't true and made no sense. This was before the lawsuits started piling up and Toy finally agreed to include the tires on the regular warranty and replace them. (I know they don't make the tires, but they decided to use the run flats on the AWD van after they redesigned it and took away the space for the spare.)

    Normally I'd just sit back and watch the circus with the politicians on TV going on and on about Toyota vehicles. But after months of researching new cars I'd decided to buy a '10 Avalon XLS. Shortly afterward the recalls began, and I've since cancelled the order. So what to do now? Buy one of the cars I crossed off my list and feel like I have a make-do car, or put an order in for an '11 Avalon and hope for the best, sitting on the edge of my seat with my fingers crossed everytime I drive it? That's a rhetorical question, I know none of you can answer it. And even though Toyoda has bowed and apologized, and Lentz and the suits have said with straight faces their customers are most important to them, that doesn't undo what's been done. I'm gettin' too old for this crap. What a mess.
  • twinbtwinb Posts: 140
    edited February 2010
    From Toyota Canada comes news that only the 'XLS' model will be released there, which in the US is the Limited, and there will be only one new color - Crimson Red - rather than three like in the States. Oh, and the car will be in showrooms in March. Can't tell the players without a scorecard folks.

    http://media.toyota.ca/pr/tci/en/toyota/toyota-reveals-redesigned-2011-153672.as- - px
  • nceencee Posts: 419
    I'm with you.

    I have ordered a 2011 Avalon, but I have also told the dealer, it's not a done deal. I told them, I'd drive it first, and then decide. I also told them, that if these issues keep coming up, I might just pass on the car.

    I must admit, I haven't been following it close enough to know, but what percentage of these cars, are being assembled in the USA?

    I'd sure hate to think it's our own fault for these cars? YES, this would be good news for the American Auto Industry, but these are the same folks (American's) putting these cars together?

    God, I hope nobody named "Ford, GMC, Chevy (Chevy Chase)," is employed here, it would look like a bit questionable if so:)

    ***So which car(s) will folks around here look at, if they don't purchase a Toyota?

    Skip
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I haven't been following it close enough to know, but what percentage of these cars, are being assembled in the USA?

    All of the them. The problem pedal assemblies used in the USA plants were made by a company based out of Indiana with that specific part being produced in Canada.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    The problem here is based on the Japanese culture of NEVER admitting mistakes. Secretly fix them but NEVER make an admission.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Its actually quite amusing to me that if you read up on it, CTS doesn't want to admit any blame and neither does Toyota. Its just like Firestone and Ford kept placing blame on each other until it blew over. .

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • nceencee Posts: 419
    I've looked at the pictures, and don't see a CD slot or mention of the type that comes in the new (sort of new) Avalon?

    Should Toyota left the (sort of) re-design to it's people in Japan and not American's?

    Most of us are not real excited about the changes (or lack thereof), but wasn't it an American firm that did the re-design? Do they take orders, direction from someone else, or were they given a blank slate to work with? Are they design challenged? Maybe they were told, don't spend much time, energy or money on tis model, as you don't expect to sell many with all of the [non-permissible content removed] that's coming our way?

    Will they try and do a TOTALLY new design of many of their cars next year, to try and get back consumers confidence?

    I think they would have done themselves more good, by coming out with a TOTALLY new Avalon, that looked great, drove like a dream, was just we all wanted, and at a price that couldn't be matched. It sure in hell, would have gone a long way towards public opinion.

    Skip
  • cmb08cmb08 Posts: 24
    Just left the dealership. Can't talk myself into liking the interior finish in the 2010 Avalon Ltd. Who thought up all those silver colored compartments in the dash/console? Even the high end Camry gets the tortoise trim over the center console area?
    Perhaps a small picky thing.....but my 1999 Avalon XLS interior looks richer with its contrasting leather colors and tortoise trims. If one likes the navigation feature...no question....wait for 2011. The 2010 is not as functional. It is impossible to find a 2010 WITHOUT Nav....therefore I will probably wait. One can buy an XLS without nav...but by the time you add the extras that are mostly std in Ltd (with exception of 8way passenger seat/lumbar option)....it is nearly the same price as the LTD. The interior of the XLS is so bland, that it is worth the small price difference to upgrade to the LTD. The price on the 2010s will have to come WAY down before I would choose it over the 2011. Little upgrades..like USB, back up camera, turn signal in the side mirrors, and current options that will become standard...could be worth the wait if the prices are going to stay relatively the same.
    Does anyone know what is Standard equip in Base model and what is Standard in the Ltd. models of 2011 Avalon? I am wondering if the options packages are going to be what becomes pricey here. Also...anyone know what is base price for Avalon LTD? I am hearing they will be out in Spring........another says summer....today they said November! I guess it depends on how fast they can get rid of the 2010s! Thanks all for your input....very helpful!
  • twinbtwinb Posts: 140
    http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/document/2011_Avalon_Product_Info.pdf

    Pricing hasn't been announced yet. A dealer told me the car would be in showrooms in March, same time as the Sienna arrives. Another source said April, and on the weblink above it says it will be available in the spring. Waiting until November is unlikely.
  • nceencee Posts: 419
    edited February 2010
    Well looking over the spec sheet (better) - at least answered one of my questions.

    When looking at most of the photo's I've found online, none show what seemed to be a radio / CD player, at least I couldn't see the slot for the CD player.

    The spec sheet at least notes that the base model is a CD player, but not 4 or 6 CD's, just one. Of course I still don't see the slot for the CD, but now I know, IF I purchase a new avalon, it will be the Limited (as it has what I'd like to have in my car). I guess I may have to wait until I see the pricing before I decide if I want or NEED those options. They all come at a price, but to high, and it's used Mercedes or Lexus for me:)

    I'm ok considering $35, to $38,000., but not much more then that.

    Skip
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